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Author Topic: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)  (Read 17799 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« on: January 12, 2014, 01:22:15 am »
0

One of the people I often play with simply refuses to believe me when I tell her that it's good to trash copper and estates.  She never uses trashing unless it's to trash curses or TFB.  She says, "That's just your style of playing", or "You beat us because you practice online not becuase you trash stuff."  I'm afraid I'm going to start winning every time (or at least every time that trashing is available) and playing against them won't be as fun.  I need new people to play with. (and I highly prefer playing in person to online.)
Then another possibility pops into my head: maybe I'm subconciously keeping myself from getting better to keep it from being less fun...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 02:27:45 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Tables

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Re: A sad noob case.
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 02:14:38 am »
+1

Well... you could not play online for a while. Otherwise, telling people strategy isn't usually the best thing, just let them learn.
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Re: A sad noob case.
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 04:20:54 am »
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Did you tell her the reason why Coppers and Estates are bad? (you need to reach $8 with a hand size of 5 and that means every card that gives less than $1,6 makes it less likely to happen).
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dominion123

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Re: A sad noob case.
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2014, 06:00:49 am »
+1

Show her this thread, it should help.
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qmech

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Re: A sad noob case.
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2014, 06:22:52 am »
+2

One of the people I often play with simply refuses to believe me when I tell her that it's good to trash copper and estates.  She never uses trashing unless it's to trash curses or TFB.  She says, "That's just your style of playing", or "You beat us because you practice online not becuase you trash stuff."

I don't think you can or should give any direct advice.  If you repeatedly trash and win then it will become obvious that it is a good strategy.  If you try and lecture on the correct way to play then that gives substance to the criticism that you have an advantage from playing online.
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LibraryAdventurer

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A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2014, 02:26:02 pm »
0

One of the people I often play with simply refuses to believe me when I tell her that it's good to trash copper and estates.  She never uses trashing unless it's to trash curses or TFB.  She says, "That's just your style of playing", or "You beat us because you practice online not becuase you trash stuff."

I don't think you can or should give any direct advice.  If you repeatedly trash and win then it will become obvious that it is a good strategy.  If you try and lecture on the correct way to play then that gives substance to the criticism that you have an advantage from playing online.
Yeah, that's good advice. I need to shut up and play. I also need to take better advantage of trashing. When you can do it effiencently, it's easy. We don't have the Base game yet (the first one I got was Intrigue), so we've hardly ever played with Chapel. Steward can't trash as many cards at a time and doesn't have trash for benefit, so it's temping to use it for other purposes so I can buy something this turn. Steward basically is a harder (but maybe better) card to learn effective trashing. I say maybe better because it takes more discapline than chapel.

sudgy

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2014, 08:45:07 pm »
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If she's into hard data, you could keep track of how many times your win when there is trashing and when there isn't, and maybe even make a few graphs...

...
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BadAssMutha

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 01:30:57 am »
0

Steward is a tricky card to learn to trash with. It usually comes down to either getting the +$2 and buying a decent $4 or $5 card this turn, or trashing 2 cards and buying nothing this turn. It can be really hard to see why filtering 2 bad cards out is better than adding 1 good card. As you say, the benefit is a lot more obvious with Chapel, where you're just devoting your whole turn to getting rid of your hand, and there's not as much temptation to not trash with it since it won't improve your hand otherwise.
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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 07:55:39 am »
+3

Steward is a tricky card to learn to trash with.

Here is the trick:  trash with steward early unless you can come up with an extremely strong case for why you should get +coin or +cards.  Early trashing is always better*.  Especially don't use the +coin or +cards to enable the purchase of a terminal.  Law of Terminals: They always collide**

*There are always edge cases and I understand this
**This is not actually true, but you create this chance, which wastes one of your cards if it happens, which is bad.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 01:56:59 pm »
0

One of the people I often play with simply refuses to believe me when I tell her that it's good to trash copper and estates.  She never uses trashing unless it's to trash curses or TFB.  She says, "That's just your style of playing", or "You beat us because you practice online not becuase you trash stuff."  I'm afraid I'm going to start winning every time (or at least every time that trashing is available) and playing against them won't be as fun.  I need new people to play with. (and I highly prefer playing in person to online.)
Then another possibility pops into my head: maybe I'm subconciously keeping myself from getting better to keep it from being less fun...

Is she any good at Eurogames in general? You may just be playing with someone who doesn't have the creative/mathematical chops to play Eurogames well.
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Ozle

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 02:03:16 pm »
+8

You're a boy right?
And she's a girl?

Just agree with her.
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popsofctown

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 05:14:19 pm »
+5

You're a boy right?
And she's a girl?

Just agree with her.
Could someone explain Ozle's joke to me in a way that doesn't seem sexist and patronizing?  It has +2 respect so I must be missing something.
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Awaclus

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 05:38:32 pm »
0

You're a boy right?
And she's a girl?

Just agree with her.
Could someone explain Ozle's joke to me in a way that doesn't seem sexist and patronizing?  It has +2 respect so I must be missing something.
How is that sexist or patronizing?
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SCSN

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 05:41:26 pm »
+1

You're a boy right?
And she's a girl?

Just agree with her.
Could someone explain Ozle's joke to me in a way that doesn't seem sexist and patronizing?  It has +2 respect so I must be missing something.

Probably that girls love to be sexistly patronized, despite their token protestations to the contrary ^^
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popsofctown

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 05:44:02 pm »
0

:/
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Marcory

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 05:49:47 pm »
+4

Sometimes friendships are more important than winning an argument. Let's say that his friend is passionate about, say, tennis. She knows all about different types of serves, which angles to take, etc., but to him, it's merely a nice way to spend an afternoon.

She could spend her time trying to persuade him to become a serious tennis player--or she could simply appreciate the fact that he likes playing tennis, and that they enjoy each other's company.  If she needs to talk about the fine points of tennis, or play at a high level, there are plenty of clubs where she could find high-level opponents--but if she browbeats him for not playing 'correctly,' she's likely to make him lose all interest in tennis, instead of making him a better player.

As for Ozle--if his point was to say, 'She's a girl--girls are stupid and don't get Dominion'--then of course he would be sexist. But if his point was, "She's a girl who likes spending time with you--don't blow it over a stupid argument" then his reply was spot-on, and much shorter than mine, which for most people will be tl:dr.
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Asper

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 05:54:07 pm »
+7

You're a boy right?
And she's a girl?

Just agree with her.

Don't follow this advice!
All following it got me were dozends of girls wanting to have sex and/or romantic relationships with me. It didn't help getting a more pleasant gaming experience at all!
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popsofctown

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 05:58:11 pm »
0

>_>
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Asper

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2014, 06:06:24 pm »
0

Sometimes friendships are more important than winning an argument. Let's say that his friend is passionate about, say, tennis. She knows all about different types of serves, which angles to take, etc., but to him, it's merely a nice way to spend an afternoon.

She could spend her time trying to persuade him to become a serious tennis player--or she could simply appreciate the fact that he likes playing tennis, and that they enjoy each other's company.  If she needs to talk about the fine points of tennis, or play at a high level, there are plenty of clubs where she could find high-level opponents--but if she browbeats him for not playing 'correctly,' she's likely to make him lose all interest in tennis, instead of making him a better player.

As for Ozle--if his point was to say, 'She's a girl--girls are stupid and don't get Dominion'--then of course he would be sexist. But if his point was, "She's a girl who likes spending time with you--don't blow it over a stupid argument" then his reply was spot-on, and much shorter than mine, which for most people will be tl:dr.

If that was the case, why did her sex matter? If you decide different because of somebodies sex, isn't "sexist" the exact word you're looking for?
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Ozle

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2014, 06:07:21 pm »
+3

Wow, ive never initiated a proper debate before!

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2014, 10:32:23 pm »
+8

Dude people, maybe I should've just said so, but that's a weird way to talk about my mom.  :P

...also kinda hilarious the conclusions people come to simply over the word "she/her".

The only other Eurogame I know of that she's played is Settlers of Catan.  She likes Dominion better, but she's not particularly bad at Settlers of Catan (at least not compared to us).

KingZog3

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2014, 11:12:16 pm »
+2

Dude people, maybe I should've just said so, but that's a weird way to talk about my mom.  :P

...also kinda hilarious the conclusions people come to simply over the word "she/her".

The only other Eurogame I know of that she's played is Settlers of Catan.  She likes Dominion better, but she's not particularly bad at Settlers of Catan (at least not compared to us).

Honestly, just keep winning. The best proof is the proof of victory. :P
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popsofctown

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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2014, 11:44:08 pm »
0

Dude people, maybe I should've just said so, but that's a weird way to talk about my mom.  :P

...also kinda hilarious the conclusions people come to simply over the word "she/her".

The only other Eurogame I know of that she's played is Settlers of Catan.  She likes Dominion better, but she's not particularly bad at Settlers of Catan (at least not compared to us).
Family structures are no obstacle for patriarchy.  In medieval France, a boy was considered in charge of his mother as soon as he was 14.
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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2014, 11:59:17 pm »
+4

But KingZog3 is actually Prince Charles. He's 65 years old, but still has to report to his mother.  :P
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Re: A sad noob case. (Re: effective trashing)
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2014, 12:09:40 am »
+1

Honestly, if somebody doesn't want to treat a game competitively, then there's not much use for advice. Step one is to actually *want* to put in effort to improve, and that's a step most people don't take for most games, myself included. And there's nothing wrong with that.
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