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Author Topic: Adding some Flavor  (Read 3235 times)

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Showdown35

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Adding some Flavor
« on: January 10, 2014, 02:50:56 am »
+1

Hello again!
Here's hoping all had a joyous Holiday season and very Happy New Year.

I'm back with two new cards for my fan expansion, looking for some feedback.  I have a feeling one of these cards is going to get lots of criticism, but I'm interested in the varying viewpoints it may bring out. Anyway, here they are:



Quote
Gallows
Action - $4
Each other player may trash a card. If at least one player does, +$2.
You may trash a card. If you do, +1 Action and +1 Buy.

A somewhat simple trash for benefit card that also has a tied in, let your opponents trash for your benefit with it.  I like the idea and mechanic of the card, but I'm not too sure on the specific bonuses.  I could easily switch them around, or any of them to +Cards instead.  Trying to get a good gauge of power level from the community.  The price is flexible, but I'd like it to stay at $3 or $4 if possible.



Quote
The Cavalry
Action - $5
+2 Cards, +$2
Each player reveals his hand.
If another player revealed more Provinces than you, trash this and gain a Province.

I know gaining a province outright is somewhat frowned upon, but my expansion has a high risk/high reward theme, and what is more of a high reward than gaining a Province? (don't say gaining a Colony).  I figure the stipulation of an opponent having more Provinces in hand than you limits the power of this card.  Meaning, if you hit with it, your chances of missing with another copy increases.  I wanted this to be kind of like the "hail Mary" of Dominion cards, but not to the extent that hitting with one will make you cover any lead.

The idea is that the vanilla bonuses are bad enough (for the price) that it's risky to buy the card, but if you know you are behind (or will be behind) in the province race, it's worth taking the chance to call in The Cavalry! I really want the card to stay priced at $5 so the reward is worth buying the card, so I'm flexible on the vanilla bonuses.  I look forward to comments on this one.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 02:55:26 am by Showdown35 »
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 03:10:00 am »
0

If Forager hadn't been printed, I'd really like Gallows. But it has, so Gallows is pretty redundant. Forager already gives Trash +$1 +1 Action +1 Buy early. Opponent trashing has already been done with Bishop, and it's always good to remind people that Bishop actually trashes better for the opponent than it does for you, since he has five cards to trash from and you have four. It's a fine card, but I'm not sure if it adds much to the game.


Cavalry is creative enough but there are a couple of problems. First is the premise that +2 Cards +$2 would be bad for a $5. It's not the best $5 in the game, and it's not interesting enough to be worth printing, but it's definitely a 5-cost card. Smithy is +3 Cards; this is essentially a Smithy that guarantees the third card is Silver.

It's a card I'll only buy in two situations: One, when I want +2 Cards +$2, in which case it's kind of a boring card; and two, when I'm so far behind that Duchies don't help me, but not far enough behind that the game is a lost cause. I don't think that second case is going to happen essentially ever.

In short, I'm not sure how you managed to make a Province-gaining card boring, but, well, here we are.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:14:37 am by Stealth Tomato »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 03:26:01 am »
+3

So for Cavalry:
First, the vanilla bonus is not weak for $5, it's actually quite strong and probably too strong for $5 even if the card did nothing else.  But the vanilla bonus can be changed, so that's not the main thing that worries me about it.  The main problem with a one-shot victory card gainer is that you want to put off gaining victory cards as long as possible in general, so you actually prefer having the card in your deck as long as possible before it turns into a victory card, and since it's cheaper, you generally prefer it to the victory card itself.  I don't know if that made any sense, so let me exaggerate the idea:

(Card Name)
Action - $5
+$1
You may trash this.  If you do, gain a Province.

This card is nearly strictly better than Province, because it's cheaper AND you prefer to have it in your deck (it is better in your deck than Province).  I guess what I'm trying to say is that any card, ever, is at least as good as Province, until the very end when you're counting points, and that means that a one-shot Province gainer won't want to do it's thing until the very end.

Okay, so with that being said, your card kind of dodges that issue, but not completely, and it's at least interesting enough that I'm not quite sure how I feel about it.  Since you aren't guaranteed to be able to turn it into Province before the end of the game, it's not strictly better than Province.  I *think* in most games you would have a decent shot at it (>50%?), but it's really hard to say.  You also can't control whether you do or don't trash it when you play it, which also keeps it in check (you may get the Province earlier than you wanted).

Some things I like about it: It encourages engines a little (I think?) by rewarding you for waiting to green.  In fact, it even has this cool thing where you can draw your deck most turns, which increases your handsize which decreases your chances of turning this into Province, and then as your engine sputters out and your hand size on average is smaller, this is more likely to turn itself into Province, which is near the end of the game when you want to trash it for Province.  I don't know if it would really work out like that though, and if it does consistently then it's probably too much better than Province.  I also like that the not knowing whether you will ever be able to get the Province out of it makes it not strictly better than Province, so it makes the mechanic possible (though whether it works in practice you will have to find out through playtesting I think).

So for the vanilla bonus, what you have right now is way too strong.  I like that it draws, since that makes it harder to turn into Province.  Maybe try just +2 cards, if that's too weak, +3 cards, or +2 cards, +1 buy.

Okay, a thing I just thought of right now before posting is that it's bonkers strong with sifters (Warehouse especially, probably Cellar as well), since those make sure you don't have Provinces in hand.  Still I guess it only hits if your opponent has at least one Province in hand so maybe it's okay.

Now my comments on Gallows:
I don't find it particularly exciting, but balance-wise it's probably okay, possibly too weak.  It's basically a more expensive Forager that usually gives more money, but with the drawback of letting other players trash a card.  That drawback is actually pretty big, but Forager is a very strong $3, and this is otherwise better than Forager (except the drawback).  I think the card may not be as interesting as you expect because most of the time (>75%?) both you and your opponents will trash something, and then it's kind of just a +buy silver with all-around thinning for everyone.  I would suggest different vanilla bonuses to make it more different from Forager, giving cards (instead of coin is probably best) would do that.  Actually now that I think about it I really like +2 cards instead of +$2, that makes them more spammable which means people will thin really quickly (whether they are the ones getting them or not), which means you will actually get the exciting new mechanic to be more interesting since people won't trash as often (after the early game).  Maybe then switch them though, so +2 cards if you trash and +1 action, +1 buy if other players trash.
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Tables

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 03:57:33 am »
+1

Gallows seems far too weak to me. In 2 player it's, you may trash a card for +1 action, +1 buy, which is way worse than Forager. People will only take advantage of the other player trashing effect if it's more beneficial for them than you getting +$2, which is rarely will be anyway. In 3 player+, it creates an awkward political situation where it's occasionally going to be worthwhile for you to trash and give the person playing the card the benefit, just to get a leg up on the 3rd/4th player. And you can easily have two players conspire to always power each other's Gallows up, at which point it's... still not that great of a card but is somewhat better.

The Cavalry is mispriced. +2 Cards +$2 has been tested, and is pretty generally agreed to be a $6 card, although it's not very strong or interesting there. The ability to sometimes get Provinces just makes it even better, but for a $6 card? Probably okay. Maybe the vanilla bonuses should be contingent on not getting the Province though. A $6 action to trash it and gain a Province is very strong but it's also limited by luck, so unreliable. You should probably also change the wording to stop throne room abuse, or maybe put the Province gained into hand to make it much less likely to succeed the next time.

Edit: I tried to give comments without really looking at your notes first, so I missed a few things. Okay, Cavalry needs its bonuses changed. I like Scott's thought that drawing cards makes it a little harder to trash into a Province. +3 cards is probably a good starting place to look at. It should still have throne room prevention though (e.g. "Reveal your hand. Each other player may reveal more Provinces than you revealed. If no-one does, trash this. If you do, gain a Province.")
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:02:59 am by Tables »
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

LastFootnote

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 08:39:52 am »
0

Gallows has political issues. In a game with 3 or more players, you might choose not to trash a card in order to deny the Gallows player his bonus, only to have the player to your left trash a card and give him that bonus anyway. You could have trashed a card after all! In general, any card that allows each other player a bonus, then gives you a bonus if they take it, is a bad idea.

It's a shame that you really want The Cavalry to cost $5. Even at $6, the reward is certainly worth buying the card. (Do you really need the "The" in the title? You can buy more than one. I get the reference, but it doesn't really make sense.) If it were me, I'd test this:

Quote
Cavalry
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+2 Cards. +$2. Each player reveals his hand. If you revealed more Actions than any other player, trash this. If you did trash it, gain a Province.

But I realize that's a bit of a departure from your own card. I like Actions better because it directly incentivizes players to build more interesting decks. You should probably have the "if you trash this" clause, though. Otherwise, you can wait until another player has a Province in hand, then King's Court this and gain 3 Provinces.
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Polk5440

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 03:24:24 pm »
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Ignoring the political issues, as is, I would test out Gallows at $2. It's definitely weak at $4. Trashing is a big externality early, and late, this card will often be useless in your deck.

I agree that Forager probably handles this space better, anyway. (Interaction with other players, +1 Action, +1 buy, +$? for trashing).
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Showdown35

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 05:56:22 pm »
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Thanks for the comments everyone! I've got a bunch of tweaks I'm going to impose on the cards before finalizing them for playtesting. Once again, I appreciate the criticisms as they often open my eyes to some overlooked issues.

I like the suggestion of Gallows rewarding +Cards, so I'll be doing that, and I'm toying with the first bonus happening whether other players trash or not, and only the second bonus being conditional.

As for The Cavalry (yes, I want to keep "The" in the name, even if it doesn't make complete sense, I think the one-shotness of it and the reference to the reserve soldiers of an army, justify the prensence of the word), I'm not completely averse to it costing $6 if it cant work at $5. I dont want it to be a must buy all the time, but a should buy if you know you are behind in Provinces. I'll tweak the vanillas (most likely to just a Smithy to further hurt the likelihood of having no Provinces in hand) and I guess preventing TR and KC shenanigans is necessary, but I kinda liked the idea of an uber Cavalry coming in to save the day with a well timed KC. I know... too swingy.
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soulnet

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 10:04:14 am »
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The Cavalry has huge megaturn potential by never buying your own Provinces. Consider gaining the Province to hand to reduce the likelyhood of cashing a lot on the same turn. This may be too easy too pull off, because the drawer is the same as the payload, which makes it easy (maybe too easy) to pull off (just stock up on +Actions and these). This seems easier at first sight than HoP, as long as there is no alternative to Provinces. On the other hand, the card is probably weak in Colony games and also against any kind of alt-VP.
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Showdown35

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2014, 10:28:24 am »
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The Cavalry has huge megaturn potential by never buying your own Provinces. Consider gaining the Province to hand to reduce the likelyhood of cashing a lot on the same turn. This may be too easy too pull off, because the drawer is the same as the payload, which makes it easy (maybe too easy) to pull off (just stock up on +Actions and these). This seems easier at first sight than HoP, as long as there is no alternative to Provinces. On the other hand, the card is probably weak in Colony games and also against any kind of alt-VP.

I actually originally concepted the card with gain to hand! I dont know why when I put the card into digital form I left that out... but yes, gaining to hand will also prevent TR and KC from multi-gaining unless another player has 2 more provinces inhand already, I think I'm good with that! Thanks!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 11:00:46 am »
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The Cavalry has huge megaturn potential by never buying your own Provinces. Consider gaining the Province to hand to reduce the likelyhood of cashing a lot on the same turn. This may be too easy too pull off, because the drawer is the same as the payload, which makes it easy (maybe too easy) to pull off (just stock up on +Actions and these). This seems easier at first sight than HoP, as long as there is no alternative to Provinces. On the other hand, the card is probably weak in Colony games and also against any kind of alt-VP.

I actually originally concepted the card with gain to hand! I dont know why when I put the card into digital form I left that out... but yes, gaining to hand will also prevent TR and KC from multi-gaining unless another player has 2 more provinces inhand already, I think I'm good with that! Thanks!

I want to see someone build an engine that uses Ambassador to give opponent a Province, plays multiple Governors/Council Rooms to make opponent draw deck, plays Gallows to gain Province; then repeats.
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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 03:24:05 pm »
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Perhaps more stylish, you should play Gallows The Cavalry when your opponent has a Province in hand and you don't, then later in the same turn reveal the gained Province with Tournament, after removing the Province from your opponent's hand with Pillage.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 06:17:04 pm by Warfreak2 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 03:48:05 pm »
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I want to see someone build an engine that uses Ambassador to give opponent a Province, plays multiple Governors/Council Rooms to make opponent draw deck, plays Gallows to gain Province; then repeats.

Perhaps more stylish, you should play Gallows when your opponent has a Province in hand and you don't, then later in the same turn reveal the gained Province with Tournament, after removing the Province from your opponent's hand with Pillage.

By "Gallows", I assume you both mean "The Cavalry".
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Re: Adding some Flavor
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 06:20:13 pm »
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Can I use Captain Picard Facepalm to facepalm at myself?

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