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[manthos88]

Hermit - Market Square... I love it! Especially with Scheme on the board! 


http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140108/log.50a4c9e3e4b03214bb781add.1389190858909.txt


It took me a while... But i was not in a hurry anyway. I wanted to grab some Golds before pulling the trigger to make sure i can buy all 8 Provinces. Then, my opponent eventually bought one and then i just waited until i get 2 Madmen in hand...

[2.71828.....]

I do not think that game is the game you think it is (the link is wrong)

[manthos88]

I do not think that game is the game you think it is (the link is wrong)

Yep! That was a mistake! Fixed now! 

[manthos88]

And by the way, a question mark arised during this game: What exactly happens when i Scheme a Hermit while letting it trash into a Madman? I thought that the Hermit is still trashed and then Scheme takes it from the trash and top-decks it. But Goko didn't let me react to this with Market Square when it happened. So, something else is going on here... Can anyone solve this?

[Davio]

The order of things as I think it should be:

Start of clean-up: Scheme triggers and you can pick Hermit, it's in play and moves it to the top of your deck.

Now Hermit itself triggers (lose track doesn't apply to cards that do something to themselves I believe) and trashes itself from the top of your deck.

You should be able to react with Market Square as one of your cards was trashed.

So no idea why Goko does it the way it does.

[Warfreak2]

Lose track does apply to cards which do things to themselves - I actually can't think of an example other than Hermit/Scheme, now, but the text of the lose track rule doesn't say anything about an exception for cards which have effects on themselves. DXV sez Hermit can lose track of itself, so you can indeed take a Madman without trashing the Hermit.

[michaeljb]

Another example would be TR/Mining Village; if you trash the MV the first time you play it, you can't trash it the second time because it expects to find itself in play instead of in the trash.

[SirPeebles]

The order of things as I think it should be:

Start of clean-up: Scheme triggers and you can pick Hermit, it's in play and moves it to the top of your deck.

Now Hermit itself triggers (lose track doesn't apply to cards that do something to themselves I believe) and trashes itself from the top of your deck.

You should be able to react with Market Square as one of your cards was trashed.

So no idea why Goko does it the way it does.

This isn't completely accurate.  When clean-up starts, Scheme lets you choose an Action card in play.  You choose Hermit.  Nothing happens until you discard Hermit from play.  At that point, two effects are triggered simultaneously

1)  Trash Hermit.  Gain a Madman from the Madman pile.

2)  Put Hermit on the top of your deck.

Since these effects are triggered simultaneously, you get to choose the order in which they are resolved.  The thing is, each of these effects expect Hermit to be on the top of your discard pile, and both (try to) move Hermit.  If you choose to resolve effect (2) first, then Hermit will be on top of your deck and effect (1) will fail to trash Hermit, but will (usually) still successfully gain a Madman from the Madman pile.  On the other hand, if you choose the resolve effect (1) first, you will trash the Hermit, and then effect (2) will fail to topdeck Hermit.

Edit:  I just noticed that the question was about revealing Market Square.  If you resolve effect (1) first, then you successfully trash and can reveal Market Square for a Gold.  If you resolve effect (2) first, then you will fail to trash Hermit, and will therefore be unable to reveal Market Square for a Gold.

[manthos88]

I think i just found an answer myself, from the Dark Ages Rulebook:


"...Then, when you discard Hermit from play - normally, in Clean-up, after playing it in your Action phase - if you did not buy any cards this turn, you trash Hermit and gain a Madman. The Madman comes from the Madman pile, which is not in the Supply, and is put into your discard pile. It does not matter whether or not you gained cards other ways, only whether or not you bought a card. If there are no Madman cards left, you do not gain one. If Hermit is not discarded from play during Clean-up - for example, if you put it on your deck with Scheme (from Hinterlands) - then the ability that trashes it will not trigger."


It's a little confusing though... It says that the ability doesn't trigger. Does this mean you will still get a Madman, or not? That's not specified... I guess the correct answer is that you do (I hope). That should explain the whole thing.

[SirPeebles]

I think i just found an answer myself, from the Dark Ages Rulebook:


"...Then, when you discard Hermit from play - normally, in Clean-up, after playing it in your Action phase - if you did not buy any cards this turn, you trash Hermit and gain a Madman. The Madman comes from the Madman pile, which is not in the Supply, and is put into your discard pile. It does not matter whether or not you gained cards other ways, only whether or not you bought a card. If there are no Madman cards left, you do not gain one. If Hermit is not discarded from play during Clean-up - for example, if you put it on your deck with Scheme (from Hinterlands) - then the ability that trashes it will not trigger."


It's a little confusing though... It says that the ability doesn't trigger. Does this mean you will still get a Madman, or not? That's not specified... I guess the correct answer is that you do (I hope). That should explain the whole thing.

Donald misspoke.  When he wrote that, he was thinking of an earlier version of Scheme.  I think the past version of Scheme he had in mind functioned like Herbalist.  Note that Scheme topdecks a card when that card is discarded, whereas Herbalist topdecks a card when Herbalist is discarded.  So had Scheme worked like Herbalist, then it would have topdecked Hermit before Hermit was discarded, and so Hermit's self-trashing and Madman gaining would never trigger.

[markusin]

I think i just found an answer myself, from the Dark Ages Rulebook:


"...Then, when you discard Hermit from play - normally, in Clean-up, after playing it in your Action phase - if you did not buy any cards this turn, you trash Hermit and gain a Madman. The Madman comes from the Madman pile, which is not in the Supply, and is put into your discard pile. It does not matter whether or not you gained cards other ways, only whether or not you bought a card. If there are no Madman cards left, you do not gain one. If Hermit is not discarded from play during Clean-up - for example, if you put it on your deck with Scheme (from Hinterlands) - then the ability that trashes it will not trigger."


It's a little confusing though... It says that the ability doesn't trigger. Does this mean you will still get a Madman, or not? That's not specified... I guess the correct answer is that you do (I hope). That should explain the whole thing.

Donald misspoke.  When he wrote that, he was thinking of an earlier version of Scheme.  I think the past version of Scheme he had in mind functioned like Herbalist.  Note that Scheme topdecks a card when that card is discarded, whereas Herbalist topdecks a card when Herbalist is discarded.  So had Scheme worked like Herbalist, then it would have topdecked Hermit before Hermit was discarded, and so Hermit's self-trashing and Madman gaining would never trigger.

This confusion all stems from the fact that, the way it's worded, the Madman gain is conditional on discarding the Hermit rather than trashing the Hermit. This is different from the special effect of Mining Village or Fortress that is conditional on the card in question getting trashed.

[manthos88]

I 've given it some thought and it makes sense to me now.

Let's take things in order: You play Scheme, then Hermit. You don't buy anything this turn. In clean-up, you select Hermit with Scheme's ability. Hermit is now discarded from play. Because you didn't buy anything, it attempts to get trashed, but fails because Scheme puts it on top of deck. Then, proceeding to the next part of the Hermit's ability, you gain a Madman.


That's it i think. It's part of the genral rule "perform as much as of what the Card says as you can". In this case, you are unable to trash Hermit, because Scheme puts it on top of deck, but this doesn't cause you not to gain a Madman. If that was to happen, Hermit should be worded like this: "...When you discard this from play, if you didn't buy anything this turn, trash it. If you do, gain a Madman from the Madman pile."