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[Warfreak2]

It may be that Goko's license with RGG is non-transferrable. In that case they wouldn't actually be authorised to allow a private iso clone.

[TheExpressicist]

It may be that Goko's license with RGG is non-transferrable.

That may well be the case. If so, we can move on to the next idea.

[SCSN]

This is ... pretty funny.  I retract my previous statement.

The //HACK is not such a big deal, every software project does that and anyone who tells you they've never done something similar is lying.

The code comments read like a bad soap opera. You can almost hear the different voices of the various developers who worked on the project at certain points of time, complete with subtle insinuations about previous programmers' lack of coding ability, accusations, questioning why certain things are done certain ways... If it weren't so sad, it would be hilarious.

As someone told me:

It's really painful to have to find where Goko does X, understand its horrible undocumented code, and then figure out how to modify it to do Y instead.

Actually, it's even worse than that because chunks of code are reused in totally unexpected places, so you're never safe to assume that you're only making a local change. For example, when Goko wants to check which expansion sets you own (for the store or something), it runs its code to generate a random kingdom (!) and then looks at the list of sets that gets cached along the way. That means you can't replace the kingdom generating code without breaking all sorts of other stuff.

[WanderingWinder]

Are people on board with contacting RGG with this proposal?

...no? They're just going to say no, or not bother to reply. I'd be much more interested in some sort of "Are you aware of the following problems with Goko" sort of message.

In this situation, "No" is an acceptable outcome because there is so little opportunity cost associated with simply sending an email to Goko. This could literally be done in 5 minutes.

Unlike other "plans" which require the cooperation and backing of the community, along with significant potential negative repercussions. Furthermore, this is an offer of compromise which benefits Goko. Essentially we're offering them free servers and hosting. It's not a unilateral demand coupled with a toothless threat. And if they say "No" or don't respond, that's fine. On to the next plan.

In fact, I'll make it easy. All someone has to do is just send the following email:

"Hi, I am a representative of the online Dominion community. I'm sure you have heard many of the complaints that have been leveled at Goko in the recent weeks. I have a potential solution that would still allow Goko to generate revenue, take much of the load off Goko's servers, and satisfy the Dominion online community.

The suggestion would be for you to offer limited license of Dominion online to a group who would host an alternate version of Dominion online on a separate server. The condition of this license would be that only people who have paid for the Goko Ultra Pack would have access to this server. Or, if there is an alternate pricing structure that would be preferable, we would certainly be amenable to that as well.

This would encourage people to continue buying Goko products so that they could access a function online version of Dominion, and it would potentially take a large amount of load off of Goko's servers.

Please let me know if you'd be amenable to this plan.

Sincerely,
*insert name here*"

The CEO of Goko's email is katiewc@goko.com
Their publically posted emails are: devrel@goko.com,
 info@goko.com,
 bizdev@goko.com

Who wants to step up to the plate and send the email?

By this logic, I ought to send everyone in this topic a bunch of PMs telling them to quit posting stuff, because it annoys me. There's extremely little opportunity cost.

I'm sure you'd love to have to deal with one of these every so often. I mean, basically, it's just spam, and you don't send spam out of politeness, if nothing else.

[WanderingWinder]

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

In any case, you shouldn't expect anyone to do things more for you here based on whatever action you're planning on taking. I mean, okay, if you set up an iso clone, you might get away with it. I don't advocate this, though, because it's at best questionable legally, and you probably don't want the mess. But petitions, etc. - why would anyone respond to this?

Oh, I suppose buying the license out might be plausible also, but you're never going to raise enough money for it.


Seriously, though, design your own game. It's not as hard as you think.

[TheExpressicist]

By this logic, I ought to send everyone in this topic a bunch of PMs telling them to quit posting stuff, because it annoys me. There's extremely little opportunity cost.

If you think the potential benefit of that would outweigh the time it would take to PM about 70 people, then absolutely you should do it.

[WanderingWinder]

And, there is one valuable lesson to remember here. As jonts points out, the first option has a huge advantage in the poll. This is a pretty harrowing reminder of how unimportant things like what order choices are given in can have big impacts in surveys/questionnaires/polls, so be very thorough, and take such things with a grain of salt anyway.

[TheExpressicist]

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

We're actually completely on the same page here. You should read my very first post in this thread, on page 4. Basically I excoriated most of the people on this thread for making silly suggestions and demands without offering any concrete, specific solutions that didn't revolve around getting Dougz to potentially break the law.

[heron]

But, WanderingWinder, I thought we were all you. Do you really need a reminder PM to tell yourself to stop posting in this thread?

[markusin]

But, WanderingWinder, I thought we were all you. Do you really need a reminder PM to tell yourself to stop posting in this thread?

Perhaps WanderingWinder wants to be reminded that he should stop posting here no matter which one of us he logs in as.

[GeoLib]

Because you're asking them to (presumably) violate a contract they signed. Why in the world would they do that?

Ah. I think the misunderstanding here is that I mean (and meant to say) that this should be an email to Goko and RGG representatives, I think the permission of both of them might be necessary for this to work.

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

Yes. Many of us have a problem with what is happening. Goko also has problems. So we are proposing something that could in fact fix multiple problems. Even if we say that reduced server traffic to Goko isn't a good thing for them, it's at least fixing the problems that many of us have without negatively impacting them. This is not people demanding that someone fix their problems, this is people trying to propose solutions to fix their problems. So... problem-solving. That doesn't sound 8-year-old behaviour to me.

[Ozle]

By this logic, I ought to send everyone in this topic a bunch of PMs telling them to quit posting stuff, because it annoys me. There's extremely little opportunity cost.

AHA! So its you that keeps sending me those mails! I should have guessed...

[SCSN]

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want

All problems are ultimately subjective; cancerous growth is terrible for a non-suicidal human, but it's awesome for the cancer cells. Once you have reason to believe that something you consider problematic is judged likewise by a sizable part of the people you're interacting with, it's common practice to refer to it as "being a problem" rather than to keep inserting annoying and superfluous hedges in the form of references to subjective perception.

and you want someone else to fix it for you.

Nope. Well, of course I'd love that, but this thread is really the first step towards solving my own problem. If it doesn't lead to anything, coding my own dominion site (either alone or in cooperation with others) might well be the next.

Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8

When I was 8 I loved to play with lego blocks. Playing around with cards or with code or with words isn't that much of a difference, actually. I've always found it a pity that many people, as they get older, seem to lose that childish sense of curiosity, of speculative vision, of playful exploration.

[scott_pilgrim]

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

I think what's happening in this thread (at least after the first page or so) is that people posting here want better online Dominion, and presumably Goko/RGG wants money, and we are trying to find a way that both of those things can happen.  If we're only thinking about the former we will obviously get nowhere, so that's why people are discussing what benefits we might be able to provide to Goko/RGG by the existence of better online Dominion.

Now, whether you think it's possible to reach a solution that benefits everyone involved is up for discussion; a lot of people here think it is, and a lot of others think it isn't.  But calling them 8-year-olds just because they are looking for such a solution is completely ridiculous.  Am I a whiny 8-year-old when I play Quo Vadis and trade votes with you so that we both score more victory points?  Obviously I'm only interested in my own scoring, but I know that you'll agree to help me out if it means more for you.  How about when I trade you the resources that you need for the resources that I need in Settlers of Catan?  Or when I make a temporary alliance with you in Risk?  Or when I KC Masquerade and agree to pass you a Silk Road for your Gardens because I have threatened to Embargo Silk Roads, which are worth more to you but less to me than Gardens in multi-player Dominion?

We have identified that there is potentially deadweight loss in the current state of online Dominion; many of the posters here think that it is economically beneficial for Goko/RGG to execute plan X, and that we also get better online Dominion by plan X, and therefore there is no reason not to do X.  It's not selfish to think like that; it's stupid not to.

Again, I don't know how plausible the suggestions are, but they're certainly worth discussing.

[popsofctown]

I would rather make up my own version of dominion than have to give goko money to play on iso because fuck goko.  (theory is it ok to say fuck, I won't say it again if it's not cool, I just wanted emphasis)

[GeoLib]

I would rather make up my own version of dominion than have to give goko money to play on iso because fuck goko.  (theory is it ok to say fuck, I won't say it again if it's not cool, I just wanted emphasis)

I am biased in that I've already given money to goko, but I would rather do something that isn't illegal and has the blessing of the creator and license holder.

[Witherweaver]

The thing that I don't get about this is people keep saying that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and are looking for solutions.

The issue is, it's really that YOU have a problem, in that you can't play online dominion like you want, and you want someone else to fix it for you. Which seems to me to be behaviour ordinary for people somewhere around the age of 8 - or perhaps it's just modern consumer culture.

In any case, you shouldn't expect anyone to do things more for you here based on whatever action you're planning on taking. I mean, okay, if you set up an iso clone, you might get away with it. I don't advocate this, though, because it's at best questionable legally, and you probably don't want the mess. But petitions, etc. - why would anyone respond to this?

Oh, I suppose buying the license out might be plausible also, but you're never going to raise enough money for it.


Seriously, though, design your own game. It's not as hard as you think.

Well, designing my own game doesn't sound like any fun to me.  Some people probably like that, but I wouldn't.  I'd rather to different things with my time and let other people (who would probably be much better at it) design games.  I'd then be willing in many cases to pay for those games.  I mean if that's not available I'm not going to throw a tantrum or anything, but generally this seems like a pretty good way for things to work.

[popsofctown]

I would rather make up my own version of dominion than have to give goko money to play on iso because fuck goko.  (theory is it ok to say fuck, I won't say it again if it's not cool, I just wanted emphasis)

I am biased in that I've already given money to goko, but I would rather do something that isn't illegal and has the blessing of the creator and license holder.

So why haven't you given my post +1 respect since my one liner post is enthusiastic support for Donald's only suggestion??

[popsofctown]

By own version I did mean new game.  People should have figured out that's what I've been on about since I linked to the variants thread with a Dominion overhaul restructure idea.  I expect people to read the notes in the margins because I'm an egotist

[GeoLib]

By own version I did mean new game.  People should have figured out that's what I've been on about since I linked to the variants thread with a Dominion overhaul restructure idea.  I expect people to read the notes in the margins because I'm an egotist

Ah. I didn't realize that's what you meant.

[markusin]

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.

[TheExpressicist]

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.

There's no shortage of things that MIGHT insult people.

[Kirian]

Does anyone else think that Goko might get insulted if they were told that reducing their average traffic is a good thing? It's a very counter-intuitive claim, and something that seems like it's making fun of Goko. Having too much traffic actually be an issue is just a really sad situation that should never have come about in the first place that you'd normally pretend never existed.

There's no shortage of things that MIGHT insult people.

There might well be a shortage, however, of people who care whether Goko gets insulted.

[() | (_) ^/]

I don't know, WW -- doesn't the concept of money as a store of value come into play here?  We use money everyday to try to solve various problems -- I wouldn't classify doing that as childish behavior, although of course in some cases it can be.

You've correctly identified MY problem here... I even posted about it a few pages ago (emphasis is new):

Guys I just want to reliably play Dominion online because I have a hard time finding IRL people to play with at the same time and place as me.  I own all the sets.  I'm willing to pay money to do this.

I like pro-rankings/leaderboards and tournaments and automatching according to preferences.  I'm willing to pay some more money for those too.

Does anyone know what I can do or where on the internet I should go to do this?

Designing my own game doesn't help me play Dominion more (i.e. doesn't solve the problem).

Earning money and then going and telling people that I am willing to pay some of that money to anyone who can make me able to play Dominion more (given the constraints of my circumstances) might actually be a viable step towards solving the problem.

Suggesting that it is childish to do so is kinda... wrong.  We live in a society where you pay money to people who make it their business to provide you with things.  Literally the way humanity has lived for as long as the concept of money has been around.  So posting in a forum thread dedicated to finding a solution to MY problem -- in the hopes of gaining a greater understanding of how many other people have the same problem and hearing what their suggestions for solutions to our common problem might be -- certainly seems like a non-childish, reasonable thing to do.

Of course, you may have not been talking to me with that reference to childishness... and if that is the case, then nevermind -- I'll just pick up this gauntlet that seems to be lying here between us for some reason. 

[popsofctown]

But it's like, someone has something you want, and you feel like you're entitled to get it just because you're willing to pay for it.  But sometimes life's not like that.  Sometimes the seller says "not for sale".

Goko's not gonna sell the license.  It's theirs for X years.