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[prom_vrt]

Moat is a fairly bad card overall but occasionally it is a must-buy. In this case with no trashing it is a must or you'll lose a curse split and that's the trouble. The presence of good trashing for curse, card drawing for discard attacks, etc reduces the importance of Moat IMO.

[theblankman]

Moat is significantly better with more players in the game due to the higher chance that it will block at least one attack each time you draw it.  Just having a curser and no trasher in a two-player game probably isn't reason enough to buy it, because: (1) You can mildly lose the curse split (take 6 of them) and still win the game, and (2) if the alternative is buying nothing, Moat makes you play your own attack less often; depending on shuffle luck that may "make up for" any junking you prevent with Moat, and the split could still end up even, or worse.  I don't have numbers to back that up but if someone who's handy with the sims wants to set it up, I'd be interested in seeing who wins the Curse split and/or the game on something like 5/2 openings, Witch/- vs Witch/Moat, followed by BM. 

I guess I wouldn't buy Moat mainly for the reaction in a two-player game, but it's also an action that increases your hand-size by as much as Courtyard.  I'm not saying it's as good as Courtyard, of course, but on a board with otherwise good components, i.e. strong trashing and villages, it can enable the engine.  Getting my BM beaten by Moat-fueled engines hasn't happened to me that often, but it's happened enough that I try not to overlook Moat as a cheap draw card any more. 

Edit: Here is a good example.  Maybe I made mistakes playing my strategy or maybe it was just wrong, but my opponent takes care of business with Minstrel, Moat, Ironworks and Bishop.  No attacks on the board, Moat is just a good enough draw card for that super-thin engine. 

[Awaclus]

I found that Moat/BM is one of the strongest strategies if not the strongest strategy in a certain Base adventure level with lots of Attacks and lots of opponents.

[prom_vrt]

Best moment today: My opponent resigned after I discarded 8 junks with cellar and got a splendid draw full of spoils, silvers and good actions.

[KingZog3]

Best moment today: My opponent resigned after discarding 8 junks with cellar and got a splendid draw full of spoils, silvers and good actions.

Why did he resign after he got a good hand? I don't understand.

[prom_vrt]

Best moment today: My opponent resigned after discarding 8 junks with cellar and got a splendid draw full of spoils, silvers and good actions.

Why did he resign after he got a good hand? I don't understand.

It's me who played Cellar, I mistyped, sorry.

In fact I wish my only Cellar with Wishing Well 2 times (success on the second one). It's my only hope when I drew almost all junks with card draw...

[liopoil]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140528/log.516d2f18e4b082c74d7b2a8e.1401326861847.txt

halfway through I was really doubting my choice of strategy "why do you always get sucked in by rats, liopoil???". That comeback felt really good though, and I only barely had enough on that last turn.

Actually, I'm not sure rats is a good idea here, but it helps with action density for throne room (except you don't want to throne rats... nevermind). My early-game play was pretty poor I think. I didn't pay too close attention to my opponents play, so I don't know if my strategy was actually better or not...

[Joseph2302]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140528/log.5062f3dc51c3843e7939eb9f.1401298673465.txt

So far behind, no extra buys in my deck (hadn't hit Grand Market), piles low, the good Tournament prizes gone, surely I'd lost right? Nope, drawing my deck with a crazy hermit/madman thing and using tournament plus the same 2 provinces to gain 5 duchies, and win the game on piles by 2 points. Honestly, a crazy comeback, love the graph at the end of this.

[dominator 123]

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140529/log.5065a11c0cf2c42ed318c891.1401363905477.txt

Rebuild on the board, I open 4/3 against a 5/2. So, probably gonna lose. I open Marauder/Silver instead of double Silver, hoping to slow down his Rebuilding. This turned out to be a bad idea, as it hurt my economy (I could have bought a Rebuild on T3 otherwise).
But his Duchess (his $2) allowed me to discard an Estate, and get a lucky T4 hand of 5 Copper, giving me a chance for a comeback. 

I won in the end. Somehow I won the duchy split, and also managed to spike a Province buy.

[KingZog3]

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140529/log.5065a11c0cf2c42ed318c891.1401363905477.txt

Rebuild on the board, I open 4/3 against a 5/2. So, probably gonna lose. I open Marauder/Silver instead of double Silver, hoping to slow down his Rebuilding. This turned out to be a bad idea, as it hurt my economy (I could have bought a Rebuild on T3 otherwise).
But his Duchess (his $2) allowed me to discard an Estate, and get a lucky T4 hand of 5 Copper, giving me a chance for a comeback. 

I won in the end. Somehow I won the duchy split, and also managed to spike a Province buy.

Opening 5/2 and buying rebuild kills his economy too. He still needs to be able to hit $5 sometimes, and buy Rebuild first doesn't help wit that at all. So really you both had a no economy card and a silver, but his silver helps you too.

[silverspawn]

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140529/log.5065a11c0cf2c42ed318c891.1401363905477.txt

Rebuild on the board, I open 4/3 against a 5/2. So, probably gonna lose. I open Marauder/Silver instead of double Silver, hoping to slow down his Rebuilding. This turned out to be a bad idea, as it hurt my economy (I could have bought a Rebuild on T3 otherwise).
But his Duchess (his $2) allowed me to discard an Estate, and get a lucky T4 hand of 5 Copper, giving me a chance for a comeback. 

I won in the end. Somehow I won the duchy split, and also managed to spike a Province buy.

Opening 5/2 and buying rebuild kills his economy too. He still needs to be able to hit $5 sometimes, and buy Rebuild first doesn't help wit that at all. So really you both had a no economy card and a silver, but his silver helps you too.

and it helps him too, just as much on average, so in reality he had silver/rebuild vs silver/marauder, which is a big advantage

funny enough i think that 5/2 is not big on a rebuild board, but it is here because of duchess

[markusin]

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140529/log.5065a11c0cf2c42ed318c891.1401363905477.txt

Rebuild on the board, I open 4/3 against a 5/2. So, probably gonna lose. I open Marauder/Silver instead of double Silver, hoping to slow down his Rebuilding. This turned out to be a bad idea, as it hurt my economy (I could have bought a Rebuild on T3 otherwise).
But his Duchess (his $2) allowed me to discard an Estate, and get a lucky T4 hand of 5 Copper, giving me a chance for a comeback. 

I won in the end. Somehow I won the duchy split, and also managed to spike a Province buy.

Opening 5/2 and buying rebuild kills his economy too. He still needs to be able to hit $5 sometimes, and buy Rebuild first doesn't help wit that at all. So really you both had a no economy card and a silver, but his silver helps you too.

and it helps him too, just as much on average, so in reality he had silver/rebuild vs silver/marauder, which is a big advantage

funny enough i think that 5/2 is not big on a rebuild board, but it is here because of duchess

And you can get more Duchesses early when trashing Estate for duchy. I'm not sure how many Duchesses you want though.

[prom_vrt]

Lesson to learn: My opponent's Margrave is the card that helps me win...
(http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140531/log.5342fe62e4b067f8d7e9af4c.1401528141492.txt)

There was 3 provinces left, my opponent snatched 3 while I got 2 though I had bought so many KCs (6). I got a suck draw with 3 KCs but no other action...

Prom Vrt: turn 14
...
Prom Vrt   draws Silver, King's Court, King's Court, Gold, King's Court [Just a duchy with 3KCs...NO!!!!!!]

However, due to my opponent just KC-Margrave...

Prom Vrt: turn 15
...
Prom Vrt   buys Province
Prom Vrt   gains Province
Prom Vrt   buys Province
Prom Vrt   gains Province
Prom Vrt   buys Province
Prom Vrt   gains Province

It was such nice thing that I ended up winning.

[Polk5440]

The best Rats trash I've ever had, I think:

Polk5440:   turn 19
Polk5440   plays Ironmonger
Polk5440   draws Rats
Polk5440   reveals: Ironmonger
Polk5440   places Ironmonger on top of deck
Polk5440   plays Shanty Town
Polk5440   reveals Count, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats
Polk5440   plays Count
Polk5440   gains Copper
Polk5440   trashes Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Ironmonger
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Rats
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Swindler
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Throne Room
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   shuffles deck
Polk5440   draws Ironmonger
....

[liopoil]

The best Rats trash I've ever had, I think:

Polk5440:   turn 19
Polk5440   plays Ironmonger
Polk5440   draws Rats
Polk5440   reveals: Ironmonger
Polk5440   places Ironmonger on top of deck
Polk5440   plays Shanty Town
Polk5440   reveals Count, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats
Polk5440   plays Count
Polk5440   gains Copper
Polk5440   trashes Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Ironmonger
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Rats
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Swindler
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Throne Room
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   shuffles deck
Polk5440   draws Ironmonger
....

even better - you got all those cards in hand that you need from his swindler hitting rats twice on the previous turn.

[Polk5440]

The best Rats trash I've ever had, I think:

Polk5440:   turn 19
Polk5440   plays Ironmonger
Polk5440   draws Rats
Polk5440   reveals: Ironmonger
Polk5440   places Ironmonger on top of deck
Polk5440   plays Shanty Town
Polk5440   reveals Count, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats
Polk5440   plays Count
Polk5440   gains Copper
Polk5440   trashes Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats, Rats
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Ironmonger
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Rats
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Swindler
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   draws Throne Room
Polk5440   applies the 'when you trash ability' of Rats
Polk5440   shuffles deck
Polk5440   draws Ironmonger
....

even better - you got all those cards in hand that you need from his swindler hitting rats twice on the previous turn.

Oh, yeah! Forgot to mention that part! The Rats pile had just emptied, so I got two Ironmongers and drew 2 cards. That's 7 Rats out of 8 trashed in one turn. 

[prom_vrt]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140608/log.531f3054e4b0185fa461141c.1402231668290.txt

Turn 11 was a silly turn that I Throne Room a King's Court to play two Ruined Markets three times each, for a total of six times gaining 6 +buys. I didn't realize first why did I do that. But I spent all +buy on free Pawn with Quarry in play. Nice

Prom Vrt   plays Pawn
Prom Vrt   takes 1 action
Prom Vrt   draws Quarry
Prom Vrt   plays Inn
Prom Vrt   draws Silver, Ruined Village
Prom Vrt   discards Copper
Prom Vrt   discards Ruined Village
Prom Vrt   plays King's Court
Prom Vrt   plays Cultist
Prom Vrt   draws King's Court, Ruined Market
rednes   gains Abandoned Mine
Prom Vrt   plays Cultist
Prom Vrt   draws Ruined Market, Copper
rednes   gains Survivors
Prom Vrt   plays Cultist
Prom Vrt   draws Throne Room, Copper
Prom Vrt   plays Throne Room
Prom Vrt   plays King's Court
Prom Vrt   plays Ruined Market
Prom Vrt   plays Ruined Market
Prom Vrt   plays Ruined Market
Prom Vrt   plays King's Court
Prom Vrt   plays Ruined Market
Prom Vrt   plays Ruined Market
Prom Vrt   plays Ruined Market
Prom Vrt   plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
Prom Vrt   plays Quarry
Prom Vrt   buys Throne Room
Prom Vrt   gains Throne Room
Prom Vrt   buys Inn
Prom Vrt   gains Inn
Prom Vrt   shuffles deck
Prom Vrt   buys Pawn
Prom Vrt   gains Pawn
Prom Vrt   buys Pawn
Prom Vrt   gains Pawn
Prom Vrt   buys Pawn
Prom Vrt   gains Pawn
Prom Vrt   buys Pawn
Prom Vrt   gains Pawn
Prom Vrt   buys Pawn
Prom Vrt   gains Pawn
Prom Vrt   draws Copper, Copper, Quarry, Cultist, Estate

[Watno]

First time I pull this of
Watno: turn 26
Watno   plays Ambassador
Watno   reveals Province
awaclus   gains Province
Watno   plays 2 Copper, 1 Cache
Watno   buys Tunnel
Watno   gains Tunnel
Watno   draws Copper, Copper, Duchy, Harem, Copper
Game Over

[Awaclus]

What makes even better: I gave him that Ambassador. Now I regret it.

[KingZog3]

First time I pull this of
Watno: turn 26
Watno   plays Ambassador
Watno   reveals Province
awaclus   gains Province
Watno   plays 2 Copper, 1 Cache
Watno   buys Tunnel
Watno   gains Tunnel
Watno   draws Copper, Copper, Duchy, Harem, Copper
Game Over

Did you end the game and that Tunnel won you the game? Otherwise that's kind of silly to be happy you did that.

[sudgy]

First time I pull this of
Watno: turn 26
Watno   plays Ambassador
Watno   reveals Province
awaclus   gains Province
Watno   plays 2 Copper, 1 Cache
Watno   buys Tunnel
Watno   gains Tunnel
Watno   draws Copper, Copper, Duchy, Harem, Copper
Game Over

Did you end the game and that Tunnel won you the game? Otherwise that's kind of silly to be happy you did that.

The cool thing is giving the other person a Province, and still winning.

[Awaclus]

First time I pull this of
Watno: turn 26
Watno   plays Ambassador
Watno   reveals Province
awaclus   gains Province
Watno   plays 2 Copper, 1 Cache
Watno   buys Tunnel
Watno   gains Tunnel
Watno   draws Copper, Copper, Duchy, Harem, Copper
Game Over

Did you end the game and that Tunnel won you the game? Otherwise that's kind of silly to be happy you did that.

Yes, that's what happened.

[greatexpectations]

i just had an impressive one, though not quite what i was hoping for. no attacks, wharf, weak villages, and lots of trashing. was going to play a pretty straight wharf/BM and this happened:
T1: 3 copper, 2 estates - buy silver
T2: 4 copper, 1 estate - buy silver
T3: 1 silver, 2 copper, 2 estates - buy silver
T4: 4 copper, 1 estate - buy silver
T5: 1 silver, 2 copper, 2 estate - buy silver
T6: 4 copper, 1 estate - buy silver
T7: 4 silver, 1 copper - buy province
T8: 1 silver, 2 copper, 1 estate - buy silver

8 turns with 5+ once is not how you hope a wharf/BM game will go.

[KingZog3]

i just had an impressive one, though not quite what i was hoping for. no attacks, wharf, weak villages, and lots of trashing. was going to play a pretty straight wharf/BM and this happened:
T1: 3 copper, 2 estates - buy silver
T2: 4 copper, 1 estate - buy silver
T3: 1 silver, 2 copper, 2 estates - buy silver
T4: 4 copper, 1 estate - buy silver
T5: 1 silver, 2 copper, 2 estate - buy silver
T6: 4 copper, 1 estate - buy silver
T7: 4 silver, 1 copper - buy province
T8: 1 silver, 2 copper, 1 estate - buy silver

8 turns with 5+ once is not how you hope a wharf/BM game will go.

You still buy the Wharf though. Province turn 7 is meh.

[greatexpectations]

You still buy the Wharf though. Province turn 7 is meh.

i thought about it a bit during the game but i disagreed. i can't find the log but i believe i had just shuffled and had two turns before reshuffling again. i figured i still had a decent chance of hitting at least 1 wharf before the next shuffle, so to me the province was better than the extra wharf. if i had passed then at best my first province could have come turn 10. either way its a bit of a suboptimal situation, of course.