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Author Topic: Jack game, how could I lose?  (Read 4944 times)

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soulnet

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Jack game, how could I lose?
« on: December 30, 2013, 12:27:21 pm »
+1

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131230/log.513bdc80e4b0da6e3de056bb.1388419483769.txt

Steward, JackOfAllTrades, Plaza, Procession, Sea Hag, Trader, Haggler, Merchant Ship, Vault, Nobles
(Shelters, no Colony)

I opened Jack+Silver, and then got a lucky $6 in T3 and nothing in the $4-$5 range for a while, so I played basically Jack+BM+support (Nobles and Plaza, which I did not use much), and still was one Province short of winning, after getting $7 in the last 3 turns. Was this just unlucky? Did I play poorly?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2013, 12:34:27 pm »
+1

First off, I think with Steward and Haggler, an engine should beat a money strategy. But if you play money, you should prefer Gold/Vault to Nobles early, and you don't want a Plaza at all.
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Kirian

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2013, 12:43:04 pm »
0

First off, I think with Steward and Haggler, an engine should beat a money strategy. But if you play money, you should prefer Gold/Vault to Nobles early, and you don't want a Plaza at all.

All of this.  No reason to buy the Nobles early at all, and you needed to get a second Jack I think.

I think Sea Hag is still a good bet here, though; Jack isn't that strong a trasher, and the Curses will clog up its flooding.  Maybe Steward/Hag to open, then get a Trader if your opponent goes Hag, and go engine if not?
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soulnet

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 12:50:53 pm »
+1



I did got Gold. My first Nobles I got because that way I would trash Hovel. After that, I was low on Actions (only Jack) and +3 Cards/2VP seemed better than Gold. About Plaza, I only got it near the end, though it would speed up getting the last Province I needed to secure the win more than Silver (it didn't).

I think Sea Hag is still a good bet here, though; Jack isn't that strong a trasher, and the Curses will clog up its flooding.  Maybe Steward/Hag to open, then get a Trader if your opponent goes Hag, and go engine if not?

Hag is really bad, I think. If my opponent get it, I just get Jack+Steward or maybe even double or triple Jack. Jack is pretty good against Curses.
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Polk5440

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2013, 01:18:41 pm »
0

I disagree with HME -- I think you do want (at least) one plaza. And get it early. Plaza's smoothing in money games is very good.

As far as best strategy, I like two Jacks and multiple Plazas with Nobles on $6 -- maybe even Nobles instead of the first Gold; possibly a Haggler at the right time. I think Perry made a pretty big mistake taking Haggler over Plaza on turn 4, giving him three terminals. If he really wants a Haggler to go with two Jacks, Plazas, and Nobles, then alternating Jack-Plaza-Haggler/Jack (depending on if you hit $5) is probably better.

I think without the ability to gain multiple victory cards per turn, the Steward trashing-based engine is going to struggle against the optimal double jack based strategy here.

Edit: Clarification
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 01:21:18 pm by Polk5440 »
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Polk5440

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 01:32:14 pm »
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I did got Gold. My first Nobles I got because that way I would trash Hovel. After that, I was low on Actions (only Jack) and +3 Cards/2VP seemed better than Gold. About Plaza, I only got it near the end, though it would speed up getting the last Province I needed to secure the win more than Silver (it didn't).

Instead of a second Nobles (I agree with the Hovel trashing), I would have gone for a Second Jack or Gold. Probably Gold.

Looking more closely at your draws, it's really hard to see where you would want to pick up the second Jack or an earlier Plaza, though. Hmmmm.... There is a lot of luck in these types of games.....

Quote
I think Sea Hag is still a good bet here, though; Jack isn't that strong a trasher, and the Curses will clog up its flooding.  Maybe Steward/Hag to open, then get a Trader if your opponent goes Hag, and go engine if not?

Hag is really bad, I think. If my opponent get it, I just get Jack+Steward or maybe even double or triple Jack. Jack is pretty good against Curses.

Agreed.
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Robz888

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 01:33:35 pm »
+1

I would engine this up big time. I would also ignore the Hag and open double Steward. Trash big time, pick up Plazas and a Haggler on your first $5. The Haggler is a very important source of virtual +buy here, and you can start gaining Plazas off of what should probably be purchases of Nobles for a long time.

Procession might even have a role to play here--you can Procession stuff up like Steward into Plaza into Haggler into Nobles. Don't overdo it though.
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soulnet

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 01:35:53 pm »
0


Looking more closely at your draws, it's really hard to see where you would want to pick up the second Jack or an earlier Plaza, though. Hmmmm.... There is a lot of luck in these types of games.....

Yes, that was the thing. Jack over Gold? If that was the right move, I would have never guessed it. But the second Jack also becomes less important later.
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soulnet

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 01:37:34 pm »
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I would engine this up big time. I would also ignore the Hag and open double Steward. Trash big time, pick up Plazas and a Haggler on your first $5. The Haggler is a very important source of virtual +buy here, and you can start gaining Plazas off of what should probably be purchases of Nobles for a long time.

Procession might even have a role to play here--you can Procession stuff up like Steward into Plaza into Haggler into Nobles. Don't overdo it though.

Would that be fast enough against Jack+BM? Once the Jack player gets to the 5th Province, you are completely screwed. I don't know, I just went with the draws. 6 at T3 to pick up early Gold was too tempting.
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Robz888

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 01:39:48 pm »
0

I would engine this up big time. I would also ignore the Hag and open double Steward. Trash big time, pick up Plazas and a Haggler on your first $5. The Haggler is a very important source of virtual +buy here, and you can start gaining Plazas off of what should probably be purchases of Nobles for a long time.

Procession might even have a role to play here--you can Procession stuff up like Steward into Plaza into Haggler into Nobles. Don't overdo it though.

Would that be fast enough against Jack+BM? Once the Jack player gets to the 5th Province, you are completely screwed. I don't know, I just went with the draws. 6 at T3 to pick up early Gold was too tempting.

I think so, but I'm not positive. Nobles make up a lot of points, and your deck keeps getting better while your opponent's gets worse. But it might be kind of close, and you have to play the engine really perfectly.
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Polk5440

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 01:47:34 pm »
0

I would engine this up big time. I would also ignore the Hag and open double Steward. Trash big time, pick up Plazas and a Haggler on your first $5. The Haggler is a very important source of virtual +buy here, and you can start gaining Plazas off of what should probably be purchases of Nobles for a long time.

Procession might even have a role to play here--you can Procession stuff up like Steward into Plaza into Haggler into Nobles. Don't overdo it though.

You know what else is an important source of virtual +buy? Jack of All Trades.  ;)

I just don't see double steward into Haggler/Procession grabbing enough Provinces in time without gaining multiple victory cards a turn. For it to work, I think you would HAVE to count on being able to Process $5s into Nobles and buying a Province the same turn. Maybe.... It certainly would be the more fun thing to play! I am not convinced it's best, though.
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soulnet

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 01:51:16 pm »
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I think so, but I'm not positive. Nobles make up a lot of points, and your deck keeps getting better while your opponent's gets worse. But it might be kind of close, and you have to play the engine really perfectly.

The Jack player can grab some Nobles. I may agree that engine may win, but trashing seems too slow.
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Robz888

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 01:52:31 pm »
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I would engine this up big time. I would also ignore the Hag and open double Steward. Trash big time, pick up Plazas and a Haggler on your first $5. The Haggler is a very important source of virtual +buy here, and you can start gaining Plazas off of what should probably be purchases of Nobles for a long time.

Procession might even have a role to play here--you can Procession stuff up like Steward into Plaza into Haggler into Nobles. Don't overdo it though.

You know what else is an important source of virtual +buy? Jack of All Trades.  ;)

I just don't see double steward into Haggler/Procession grabbing enough Provinces in time without gaining multiple victory cards a turn. For it to work, I think you would HAVE to count on being able to Process $5s into Nobles and buying a Province the same turn. Maybe.... It certainly would be the more fun thing to play! I am not convinced it's best, though.

I'm not convinced either, but I think it would... The Engine player can also grab a late Hag off a Haggler play. Jacky will deal with that less well after like Turn 6.
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Polk5440

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2013, 01:54:20 pm »
0

I would engine this up big time. I would also ignore the Hag and open double Steward. Trash big time, pick up Plazas and a Haggler on your first $5. The Haggler is a very important source of virtual +buy here, and you can start gaining Plazas off of what should probably be purchases of Nobles for a long time.

Procession might even have a role to play here--you can Procession stuff up like Steward into Plaza into Haggler into Nobles. Don't overdo it though.

You know what else is an important source of virtual +buy? Jack of All Trades.  ;)

I just don't see double steward into Haggler/Procession grabbing enough Provinces in time without gaining multiple victory cards a turn. For it to work, I think you would HAVE to count on being able to Process $5s into Nobles and buying a Province the same turn. Maybe.... It certainly would be the more fun thing to play! I am not convinced it's best, though.

I'm not convinced either, but I think it would... The Engine player can also grab a late Hag off a Haggler play. Jacky will deal with that less well after like Turn 6.

That's true.
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DG

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2013, 03:21:02 pm »
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7 coins on the last 3 turns, that's how you lose. The plaza comes too late and should be a silver but it's not a biggie. Starting steward/plaza and then processing your haggler gains into nobles might be interesting.
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pg

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Re: Jack game, how could I lose?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2014, 03:42:40 pm »
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I was reluctant to go for engine here because of the no (real) +buy. The inability to go for 2+ duchies in a turn in the late game can hurt a lot, even if Haggler is around for picking up Plazas in the mid-game (though without a village at 3 and after opening with steward-steward, haggler gains when you have 3/4 coins could be actively bad for engine). I wasn't thinking about using haggler to pick up Nobles+plaza early as a way to get those extra points to win on a 4-4 province split, so maybe engine is still right, but I doubt Jack/Plaza/Nobles is a significant underdog here. In any case, I doubt that I could have played engine well enough to win.

Is Haggler over Gold on T3 for soulnet crazy? I would have considered it, but it could just be wrong. Maybe I'm just overvaluing the important of Haggler for Nobles-Plaza/Province-Gold turns (I did buy Haggler T4 after all, which Polk says is very wrong).

In any case, pretty undeniable that lots of 7s at the end was very unlucky, and I probably lose this game most of the time.
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