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Author Topic: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)  (Read 51580 times)

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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2011, 03:57:26 pm »
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rink:
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

i'm pretty sure this, game rule-wise, means: you HAVE to gain a curse if one is available. only if none are available to gain does the 'otherwise' kick in.
so at the start of the game, it gains curses and golds. only once curses have run out, will it start gaining you silvers instead.

you're treating the card as if it says:
"You may gain a Curse. If you do.... etc."


« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:18:04 pm by plasticbrain »
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2011, 03:59:42 pm »
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Aahh, bank, of course. I stand corrected.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2011, 04:17:38 pm »
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All for a price of $1?  This is $5 easy now.

all for the price of...
$3 ($1 for each Rats) and 3 cards (as opposed to a big effect on one card). big difference. not to mention you have to buy them on at least 3 occassions to have the 3 in your deck.

the more i thnk about it, the more i think going up to 3 Rats is quite fair. and, oddly, rinkworks, you're the one who convinced me of this, with your evaluation of the netgain. only the 3rd Rats does anything truly big, and it's an unlikely event, unless you really commit to then, which itself is unlikely. and the 3rd Rats isn't gamebreaking or out of hand. just big.

but how about this then?:

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into the discard pile and each other player gains a Curse."

^ is this enough incentive to play them now? or is this crazy powerful because it mimics a Witch at the cost of 2$ and the luck of getting 2 copies in your hand.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:33:16 pm by plasticbrain »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2011, 04:29:24 pm »
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Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into the discard pile and each other player gains a Curse."

^ is this enough incentive to play them now? or is this crazy powerful because it mimics a Witch at the cost of 2$ and the luck of getting 2 copies in your hand.
Cantrip cursers that can potentially be played arbitrarily many times in one round? Uh, yeah, that's enough incentive to play them. The game will degenerate into a race to see who can buy the most rats and then play them over and over again to empty the curse pile. I think I shall call it a Rats race.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

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ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2011, 04:30:45 pm »
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Here, in all humility is my suggestion:

Rats – Action – 2$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action
If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and then reveal your hand, if you have no action cards in your hand, gain a Rats.

My thoughts are this:

1. 1$ cards create problems, I think creating a balanced one is really tough, keep it at 2$, it becomes easier to measure and contrast with other cards.

2. The "fast depletion" aspect of Rats is both a feature and a problem. It's a feature because its one of the key reasons someone would want to invest in the card, also its thematic that you wind up littering your deck with them. I like thematic cards, so trying to make the depletion aspect of the card work, is something I think is worth solving. But the depletion feature is a problem, because you can't make that depletion too fast, otherwise the first person to chain two, will likely deplete the pile very quickly.

This card provides solutions to both problems. It sticks the card at 2$. Now you can decide if you want a Pawn or a Rats. This is useful, it helps you judge the card easier, (both in-game and at the design phase).

In fact, the first Rat is a basic Pawn (the most commonly selected utility of Pawn anyway) and the second is a Lab. That's it, that's all you get, then you discard the Rats and start the process over. That's not stunning for two 2$ purchases, but it isn't horrible. But what you really get is a cheap, effortless gain of a Rats (assuming your hand has no more Rats in it). This is the appeal you want. You want Rats to be a bit cumbersome, but they get you to a 3-pile condition, which at times is a sublime way to win.

This isn't the most elegant solution, but I think it might behoove you to think more in this direction.

The solution here makes the free Rats gain, on the condition you have none left, which really governs it to just one Rats gain per turn (at most). This helps govern the "lottery" effect of chaining early and often to deplete the entire pile. Also it pretty makes having an "odd number" of Rats slightly less appealing than an even number. You get to the point where on the second Rats, you kind of hope you don't draw the third, otherwise you may need to spend a buy getting a Rats. There's some playfulness there I think you might enjoy.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:41:37 pm by ChaosRed »
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2011, 04:39:54 pm »
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okay, forget the cursing rats.

i think you all have seen that i listen to your suggestions and incorporate many/most of them.

but i think my current Rats version (going up to 3) is actually the best. it provides an advantage to commiting to them, without the necessity of commiting to them (getting 2 in a turn is still good). it's a fun card; not a broken card. the low cost will allow players to spend leftover coins/buys on them until they just might reach a critical mass, which is unlikely enough to be fair.

i will playtest with this version and if it turns out too powerful, i'll have to nerf it. but until then, please comment on some of the new versions of other cards i've posted, as i need feedback on those as well please! especially the new Plague Doctor, Relief and Inheritance.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:45:04 pm by plasticbrain »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2011, 04:46:48 pm »
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The unusual problems relating to Rats are resulting from a very unusual feature of it: it moves itself to the discard pile when it has been played.

Cards don't usually do that. Usually played Actions stay in the play area until clean-up, with a few moving to the Trash pile or the Island mat or somewhere else you can't get at them.  The issue with a card's moving itself to the discard pile once it has been played is that it then becomes eligible to be played again during the same turn.
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Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2011, 04:52:52 pm »
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Cards don't usually do that. Usually played Actions stay in the play area until clean-up, with a few moving to the Trash pile or the Island mat or somewhere else you can't get at them.  The issue with a card's moving itself to the discard pile once it has been played is that it then becomes eligible to be played again during the same turn.

True, true, but in this case, all you get is more Rats. I mean at some point, if this is all your engine will do, and you don't really go too far. It's the "village idiot" problem all over again. I mean you could set them aside on a mat or something, but we'll lose a lot of the card's flavor and theme. And what we're really talking about is a Pawn, then a Lab effect. Why worry that you can chain that with Rats after Rats?

I think ensuring there's never more than +1 Action (so it only adds cards on the second play) helps the danger. Withouth actions on the stack, the engine is a little harder to break. Adding actions as well, ensures you can slip in a terminal along the way and the thing becomes very broken quickly. +1 Action limits quickly how much you can break it. Sure you can add Villages, but your Villages will slow your Rats engine down.

I like the fact the Rats can "come back" it makes the card unique, you just need to govern the thing carefully to make it work. At some point if your deck is dense enough, all your Rats do is draw more Rats, infuriating, but hey isn't that what Rats are like once you start getting infested with them? The theme of the card is fun...which is why I think the card has promise, if we can just guide plastic to a version of it that's not entirely broken.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2011, 06:27:52 pm »
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Cards don't usually do that. Usually played Actions stay in the play area until clean-up, with a few moving to the Trash pile or the Island mat or somewhere else you can't get at them.  The issue with a card's moving itself to the discard pile once it has been played is that it then becomes eligible to be played again during the same turn.

True, true, but in this case, all you get is more Rats. I mean at some point, if this is all your engine will do, and you don't really go too far. It's the "village idiot" problem all over again. I mean you could set them aside on a mat or something, but we'll lose a lot of the card's flavor and theme. And what we're really talking about is a Pawn, then a Lab effect. Why worry that you can chain that with Rats after Rats?
Well, there's the practical issue: a sufficiently annoying player could just lock the game up, preventing anyone else from winning because they never get to their turn.

On the balance issue: Laboratory is a very strong card, and the generic cantrip effect of a single rats is neither strong nor weak. If we look at a comparable sort of card:

Pseudorats:
+1 Card
+1 Action
If an even number of Pseudorats (including this one) are in play, +1 Card.

I can't be sure, but I think Pseudorats would likely be balanced at $3; its power seems to be on a par with that of Wishing Well. Rats is Pseudorats but with the ability to gain free Rats and the endless recycling power. It's got to be better than a $2 card.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2011, 07:04:13 pm »
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Well, there's the practical issue: a sufficiently annoying player could just lock the game up, preventing anyone else from winning because they never get to their turn.

Yeah its true, there is a potential for an infinite loop if you have just three remaining Rats.

Quote
Pseudorats:
+1 Card
+1 Action
If an even number of Pseudorats (including this one) are in play, +1 Card.

Nicely done. A mat would work too of course, where Rats go to a Mat rather than a discard pile. Then go to the discard pile when the turn ends.

Yours is cleaner, not sure I'd pay 3 for it, but if there was no other engine-enabler I might. I think I'd just rather have one Lab though than two Pseudorats, mostly because you need to draw two to really make it worthwhile, that might be too much work just to save yourself 2 bucks.

I still very much like the notion of Rats gaining more Rats. Thematically, that's really want you want to achieve. The idea is you easily obtain Rats, they are annoying cantrips that sometimes become a Laboratory (which in itself is great thematic synergy with Laboratory if you think about it), and they keep growing in your deck. I love that whole idea. Your idea has half the equation, but is missing the "wow, that's really clever" element from a thematic stand point.

Solid, solid way to word the primary ability though, nicely crafted.

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dondon151

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2011, 07:16:54 pm »
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You could just set aside all Rats in play when there are 2 Rats in play. This is the wording that Library uses to prevent you from putting unwanted Actions back into your discard pile. You then discard the set aside cards during Clean-up.

I do like the theme of pseudoRats, though. To me, the "even number" condition implies Rats breeding, thus gaining you more Rats. The wording on pseudoRats is also less clunky than using the set-aside, then discard mechanic.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 07:20:22 pm by dondon151 »
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2011, 09:34:39 pm »
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firstly, you guys are great for putting up with my stubbornness. secondly, please talk about something other than Rats! i need help with the other cards too!
thirdly, after playtesting, the best Rats version seems to be:

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."

it was really the card draw of the 3rd Rats that was the problem and would have had to been done at a higher cost, which i really don't want to do. this design keeps them cheap, is flavorful and still useful. because the 1st Rats replace themselves, they're never a problem to have in your hand, and you feel lucky when you get that second one. the extra Rats is a mixed blessing. i like this.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 09:44:07 pm by plasticbrain »
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2011, 09:49:24 pm »
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rink:
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

i'm pretty sure this, game rule-wise, means: you HAVE to gain a curse if one is available.

Ah, you're right, yeah.  Sorry.
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2011, 09:55:45 pm »
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All for a price of $1?  This is $5 easy now.

all for the price of...
$3 ($1 for each Rats) and 3 cards (as opposed to a big effect on one card). big difference. not to mention you have to buy them on at least 3 occassions to have the 3 in your deck.

the more i thnk about it, the more i think going up to 3 Rats is quite fair. and, oddly, rinkworks, you're the one who convinced me of this, with your evaluation of the netgain. only the 3rd Rats does anything truly big, and it's an unlikely event, unless you really commit to then, which itself is unlikely. and the 3rd Rats isn't gamebreaking or out of hand. just big.

Again, compare with Laboratory.  Netgain of only 1 card and 0 actions, yet it not only costs $5 but is one of the strongest $5s.  Again, a Rats chain is a little harder to kick off (roughly 20% harder).  But playing three Rats is better than playing three Laboratories, because you get multiple actions and can reuse the Rats after each triplet.  The difference in cost?  $3 for 3 cards vs. $15 for 3 cards.  If you think that's about right, I certainly can't tell you anything different.

I really think this conversation is past the point where it's useful.  There is really no shortcut to testing out your cards yourself and seeing how they play.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 09:58:32 pm by rinkworks »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2011, 10:29:15 pm »
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Relief – Treasure – 4$
+1 Buy, “If you play no other Treasure cards this turn, this is worth +4$. Otherwise, this is worth +1$."
How does the card know whether you are going to play other Treasure cards this turn?

Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2011, 11:01:56 pm »
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Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
i see your point. does this fix it?

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “If this is the first Treasure card you played this turn, this is worth 4$ and you cannot play further Treasure cards this turn. Otherwise, this is worth 1$."

@rinkworks: did you notice my post about testing the Rats above your last post? i basically found that you were right, and came up with a version of Rats that keeps it weak (as a $1 card should be) but useful (in duplicate) while not too useful.

BTW... HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO MY AMERICAN FRIENDS!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 12:16:21 am by plasticbrain »
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2011, 09:27:18 am »
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@rinkworks: did you notice my post about testing the Rats above your last post? i basically found that you were right, and came up with a version of Rats that keeps it weak (as a $1 card should be) but useful (in duplicate) while not too useful.

That does look better, yeah.  I'm still curious about the ability of Rats to recycle back into play, but I think that danger is dramatically less when you can only go up to 2.  Let me know how it works after you've playtested a batch of games.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2011, 10:15:01 am »
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Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
i see your point. does this fix it?

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “If this is the first Treasure card you played this turn, this is worth 4$ and you cannot play further Treasure cards this turn. Otherwise, this is worth 1$."
Legit with the cards as they currently exist (although it could cause problems with a hypothetical Action that automatically plays a Treasure), but extremely specialized. I doubt I'd pay $4 for this in most decks.

A better way to write this might be:

+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first Treasure card you have played this turn, +3$ and discard all other Treasure cards from your hand."

That has the advantage of working within the normal rules of the game and not breaking if my hypothetical TreasureGolem arrives; it is otherwise the same as your proposed card except in a Black Market game.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 10:24:54 am by Jack Rudd »
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2011, 12:11:30 pm »
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Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
i see your point. does this fix it?

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “If this is the first Treasure card you played this turn, this is worth 4$ and you cannot play further Treasure cards this turn. Otherwise, this is worth 1$."
Legit with the cards as they currently exist (although it could cause problems with a hypothetical Action that automatically plays a Treasure), but extremely specialized. I doubt I'd pay $4 for this in most decks.

A better way to write this might be:

+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first Treasure card you have played this turn, +3$ and discard all other Treasure cards from your hand."

That has the advantage of working within the normal rules of the game and not breaking if my hypothetical TreasureGolem arrives; it is otherwise the same as your proposed card except in a Black Market game.
i'm going to drop in down to 3$ for testing. but i'm going to leave the text i came up with because there are other things you can do with Treasures left in your hand, like Cellar and such. thanks!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 12:37:38 pm by plasticbrain »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2011, 12:21:31 pm »
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Specifically: have you thought about this card's interaction with Black Market?
i see your point. does this fix it?

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “If this is the first Treasure card you played this turn, this is worth 4$ and you cannot play further Treasure cards this turn. Otherwise, this is worth 1$."
Legit with the cards as they currently exist (although it could cause problems with a hypothetical Action that automatically plays a Treasure), but extremely specialized. I doubt I'd pay $4 for this in most decks.

A better way to write this might be:

+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first Treasure card you have played this turn, +3$ and discard all other Treasure cards from your hand."

That has the advantage of working within the normal rules of the game and not breaking if my hypothetical TreasureGolem arrives; it is otherwise the same as your proposed card except in a Black Market game.
i'm going to drop in down to 3$ for testing. but i'm going to leave the text i came up with because there are other things you can do with Treasures left in your hand, like Cellar and such. thanks!
Not in your Buy phase you can't, which is the only time you can normally play Treasure cards.
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Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2011, 12:36:26 pm »
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right! duh!  :P maybe i'll switch to your wording then... thanks.

new Rats... halves the bonus given for extra Rats and distributes that bonus in a more power-sensitive manner.

Rats - Action - 1$
+1 Card, +1 Action, "If there are exactly 2 Rats in play, +1 Action. If there are 3 Rats in play, +1 Card and immediately put all Rats in play into your discard pile."
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2011, 04:36:20 pm »
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Relief – Treasure – 3$
+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first time you played a Treasure card this turn, you may immediately reveal your hand and discard all other Treasure cards from it. If you do, +3$."

Rats – Action-Curse – 1$
"Worth -1 Victory" / +1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. Rats can only be gained by buying them during your Buy phase."

^now Rats are also Curses. it was too much to have them handing out Curses on top of what they already do, but i wanted them to interact with Curses in some way. i think this is a nice downside to their strength in numbers. that last sentence is on there to allow me to call them Curses; otherwise, there'd be confusion everytime a card tells somebody to "gain a Curse."
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:56:29 pm by plasticbrain »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2011, 05:10:17 pm »
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Quote
Relief – Treasure – 3$
+1 Buy, +1$, “If this is the first time you played a Treasure card this turn, you may immediately reveal your hand and discard all other Treasure cards from it. If you do, +3$."
Looks nice.

Quote
Rats – Action-Curse – 1$
"Worth -1 Victory" / +1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. Rats can only be gained by buying them during your Buy phase."
Your last sentence sounds like a cure that's worse than the disease. If you don't want them treated as Curses for the purposes of, say, Mountebank, then create a new Subtype for them. It's not as if anything interacts with the Curse subtype.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2011, 05:30:40 pm »
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Quote
Rats – Action-Curse – 1$
"Worth -1 Victory" / +1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. Rats can only be gained by buying them during your Buy phase."
Your last sentence sounds like a cure that's worse than the disease. If you don't want them treated as Curses for the purposes of, say, Mountebank, then create a new Subtype for them. It's not as if anything interacts with the Curse subtype.
but i DO wanted them counted as Curses for such things like Mountebank and Fortune Teller. that's exactly the point. it's the whole "gain a Curse" thing that becomes tricky. that last sentence solves that while allowing them to still be Curses.

slight update to this card...
 from...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."
 to...
Inheritance – Action – 5$
“Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Duchy and a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2011, 05:51:58 pm »
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Inheritance strikes me as very strong in combination with Watchtower and Trader and weak in their absence. This may or may not be the effect you are looking for.

The thing about your wording on Rats is that (a) it is a special-case rule, and special-case rules are annoying, and (b) it shuts down a lot of interesting interactions it might have with other kingdom cards.

(But, congratulations! You've managed to create a card that will be bought from the Black Market even less frequently than Treasure Map!)
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'
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