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Author Topic: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)  (Read 51777 times)

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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2011, 04:16:59 pm »
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I've been kind of negative about a few of these cards, but here's a positive:  I love the idea of Miracle.  I don't know if it would actually work as written, but the central idea of caring about different card costs is interesting to me.  I half wonder if it might be better to require all different card costs, rather than them all being the same, but I still see that as the same basic idea.  I'm curious to know how you find that it plays.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2011, 05:40:55 pm »
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you guys are amazing. thanks for all the thoughtful feedback. it's really helping. and i'll admit i didn't at first realize how much help i needed. but i got a chance to do some playtesting last night... and a lot of what you guys have said is right on the money.
so, now come some changes....
i'm going to go through the changes to each card here, with why i either changed it or didn't. to just see the new cards look at first post.

 from...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile; or gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.”
 to...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 2$; or gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile.”

^i liked this card before, but i'm thinking it will see more use now.

 from...
Rats – Action – 1$
+2 Actions, “Gain a Curse; put it into your hand. When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on top of any player's deck.”
 to...
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Curse."

^this card was just not getting picked. this is a more tempting, and more dangerous buy. i didn't like the 'targeting' either. i also think this as an improvement flavor-wise. i really like the 1$ price because it feels like a discount, when it's usually not, and thus makes the Rats seem 'smaller.'

i'm leaving Poisoned Well alone for now. was attractive and fair during games i played.
i'm also leaving Medicine alone. it does 2 things that are valuable in any game, with a possibilty of being slightly stronger in a cursing game.

from...
Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$ / “When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Copper.”
 to...
Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$ / “When you would gain a card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Copper; then at the start of your next turn, +1 Action and return this to your hand.”

^this need a little livening up.

i'm leaving Outbreak alone because i like it as much as you guys seem to, and in playtesting it worked as intended.

 from...
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+2 Cards, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 non-Copper cards from it, and trash them.”
 to...
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+1 Card, +1 Buy, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 cards with a cost of 0 from it, and trash them.”

^this card needed some nerfing, but i like it. i also needed more + Buys and less + Cards in the deck to encourage using the cheaper cards.

Quarantine also works well as intended. i think reducing the Curse card gain from 2 to 1 would cause the card to be broken. another useful but fair card.

 from...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
+2 Cards, +2$, “When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on the bottom of your deck.”
 to...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Immediately put your deck into your discard pile.”  +1 Card, +2$

^as several of you pointed out, this card was broken. hopefully, i've fixed it. like Oracle, this card now causes an effect before the card draw. in this case the result is that you will have to shuffle a new deck to draw that card and Inheritance will be among the first cards of your new discard pile, thus, you will see it less often, which was my original intent.

 from...
Relief – Treasure – 5$
-1$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”
 to...
Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, count the cards in the trash pile. If there are no cards in the trash pile, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand. Otherwise, +1$ for every 2 cards in the trash pile (rounded down).”

^i found that the -1 effect was confusing even when you had 0 cost cards in hand, so i went back to the original Relic design and made some fixes so it's never a dead card in your hand.

 from...
Morgue – Action – 5$
+4 Cards, “Each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.”
 to...
Morgue – Action – 5$
+4 Cards, “Gain a curse."

^another obvious problem card. i went for a more thematic and punishing downside.

 from...
Sewers – Victory-Reaction – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “When another player trashes a card with a cost of 0$, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, gain that card from the trash pile.”
 to...
Sewers – Action-Victory – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “Trash a card from your hand. Gain a number of Coppers equal to its cost in coins."

^this is actually pretty solid, but its reaction wasn't being used much, so i gave it a better Action effect.

i'm leaving Miracle alone, since i haven't had its 'miracle' effect happen once yet! but i know it will happen someday, though it might take a... nevertheless, i got a close a couple of times and it was never a dead card, always useful.

there you have it. a real overhaul. let me know how i did. (in the meantime, i will continue playtesting.)

EDIT: tweaked Rats a little more.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 06:46:48 pm by plasticbrain »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2011, 06:10:52 pm »
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I'll leave commentary on the individual cards to brighter minds than mine.

I will say I am very pleased you've started testing and that your testing revealed all kinds of cool data for you. I am really excited about this, because I eventually want to discuss HOW to test cards, and discuss what methods yielded good test data and what did not - and how best to track how a card fared.

I test a lot, but I am still unsure if my testing methods are really as stringent or as valid as they could be. The more people who actually test their variants and share their test methods, the better I think we can all be at testing them.
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2011, 07:25:18 pm »
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Oooo, wowzer, very interesting stuff. Lots of thoughtful changes on first glance, will give some feedback in a bit.
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2011, 09:22:25 am »
0

Solid changes, for the most part, though still a few problems.  You asked if I'd respond to your revisions, so here we go:

Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile; or gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.”
 to...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 2$; or gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile.”

I actually like this about equally either way.  Ill-Gotten Gains shows how much gaining a Copper to hand might actually be a good thing.  The second version is quite different and depends a lot on whether there are any $2 cantrips.  If not, it's an Estate-gainer in the end game.  I still don't like trash-retrievers on principle, but having an alternative option makes it playable.

^i liked this card before, but i'm thinking it will see more use now.

Quote
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Curse."

At $1, this card shouldn't be powerful, but it's really not powerful.  If you have just one, all it does is replace itself, exactly as if you hadn't bought it at all.  If you have two, you get a level 2 City effect and get cursed.  I can't imagine when you'd ever want these.  If you took the cursing out, it's probably balanced at $1, but since your average income per turn starts at $3.5 and goes up from there, when would you ever want to burn a buy on one, let alone two?

^this card was just not getting picked. this is a more tempting, and more dangerous buy. i didn't like the 'targeting' either. i also think this as an improvement flavor-wise. i really like the 1$ price because it feels like a discount, when it's usually not, and thus makes the Rats seem 'smaller.'

Quote
Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$ / “When you would gain a card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Copper; then at the start of your next turn, +1 Action and return this to your hand.”

This is only useful as a response to Cursing attacks, and then Moat/Lighthouse/Watchtower/Trader are still vastly superior.  Gaining Copper is almost always a bad thing, so exchanging a Curse for a Copper is barely an improvement.  You'd rather not gain anything.  So on non-cursing boards, this is strictly worse than Silver; on cursing boards, I'd still pass this up, preferring to take the Curses rather than clog my deck up with this card.

That's the problem with the base treasure cards -- the scale is so granular.  Copper is terrible, Silver is okay, and Gold is fantastic.  There's nothing in between:  if you want to have a good inexpensive card that helps you gain lots of one of them, Silver is the only one of the three that works.

Quote
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+1 Card, +1 Buy, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 cards with a cost of 0 from it, and trash them.”

^this card needed some nerfing, but i like it. i also needed more + Buys and less + Cards in the deck to encourage using the cheaper cards.

I like the reasoning.  This card seems fine.

Quote
Inheritance – Action – 4$
+2 Cards, +2$, “When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on the bottom of your deck.”
 to...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Immediately put your deck into your discard pile.”  +1 Card, +2$

Seems perfect now.  Nice idea.

Quote
Relief – Treasure – 5$
-1$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”
 to...
Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, count the cards in the trash pile. If there are no cards in the trash pile, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand. Otherwise, +1$ for every 2 cards in the trash pile (rounded down).”

This seems like a very strange hybrid.  I don't really understand the synergy between the different pieces.  Also note that while some games have 0 cards in the trash (which you've accounted for), some games have dozens of cards in the trash pile, which would make this a powerhouse of epic proportions.  It's good if a card is good sometimes and bad other times, but the variance on this is huge.

Quote
Morgue – Action – 5$
+4 Cards, “Each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand.”
 to...
Morgue – Action – 5$
+4 Cards, “Gain a curse."

Much better but still a problem.  For one thing, cursing is harmful enough that I'd want to see +5 Cards or drop the price.  But never mind:  the main problem is that once the curses run out, they become juggernauts.  This is a fairly exhaustively discussed in other threads in this subforum (and has an entry in my fan card guide).  The easiest fix is "Gain a curse.  If you do...."  Alternately, invent a "curse token," something that's worth -1 VP at the end of the game but is unlimited and doesn't go into your deck.  If you do that, note that curse tokens are a LOT less harmful (usually) than curse cards, so you have to take that into account when adjusting the power level of the card as a whole.

Quote
Sewers – Action-Victory – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “Trash a card from your hand. Gain a number of Coppers equal to its cost in coins."

Now that's synergy.  I like that.  I'd suggest trying a cost of $4, not for power-level reasons but just because that makes it a much easier card to try to race for when you're playing a Copper strategy, as you would be if you played this card at all.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 11:08:13 am »
0

firstly, what do you guys think of rinkworks suggestions?

secondly, here are some maybe changes... things i'm considering based on rinkworks suggestions...

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."

Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$ "During your Buy Phase, cards from the Plague expansion cost 1$ less, but not less than 0$." / “When you would gain a card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, instead, trash that card; then at the start of your next turn, +1 Action and return this to your hand.”

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, count the cards in the trash pile. If there are... 0 to 3 cards; +1$ /4 to 6 cards; +2$ / more than 6 cards; +3$.

Morgue – Action – 5$
 “Gain a curse. if you do, +4 cards. Otherwise, +2 cards and you may trash a card from your hand."

« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 11:42:42 am by plasticbrain »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2011, 11:34:40 am »
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Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. During your Buy phase, you may buy a Rats even if you have no Buys left."
This is (a) grotesquely overpowered for its price and (b) a perpetual motion machine. Also, as written, the first person to play a Bridge, Quarry, Highway or Princess can then empty the Rats pile.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2011, 11:38:37 am »
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@Jack: thanks for the catch. what do you think of the previous version of Rats, which gained a Curse when you used the second one? rinkworks thought it underpowered. or what about this version?

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."

« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 11:43:20 am by plasticbrain »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2011, 11:43:25 am »
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Cards that gain Curses when you play them I would need to see in action. I'd specifically need to see them in action in Trader games, in Watchtower games, and in games with neither.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2011, 11:47:01 am »
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or what about this version?

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."
Congratulations. You may have found the only possible kingdom card that makes Woodcutter/Woodcutter a good opening.

(A more serious response: the first person to get his Rats chaining will empty the Rats pile, and then he'll have a deck that can generate arbitrarily many actions as needed. Do you see the problem with this?)
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2011, 11:56:02 am »
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i've decided to make the change to Relief official. i just like the new version so much better than any previous one.

Relief – Treasure – 4$
+0$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, count the cards in the trash pile. If there are... 0 to 3 cards; +1$ / 4 to 6 cards; +2$ / more than 6 cards; +3$.”

but the jury's still out on the others, especially Rats. which version is the best, in your opinion? i like each of them for different reasons:
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Curse."
 or...
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."
 or...
Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 3 Rats in play (including this one), immediately trash them."
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:00:06 pm by plasticbrain »
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2011, 11:58:29 am »
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or what about this version?

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile and gain a Rats."
Congratulations. You may have found the only possible kingdom card that makes Woodcutter/Woodcutter a good opening.

(A more serious response: the first person to get his Rats chaining will empty the Rats pile, and then he'll have a deck that can generate arbitrarily many actions as needed. Do you see the problem with this?)

I wonder if we're interpreting the card differently.  The way I read it -- which may not be the intended way -- the first Rats is a cantrip, the second is a Lab/Village.  But then, since both Rats are discarded, the third Rats you play is only a cantrip again.  The fourth is another Lab/Village.  I don't see this has being very powerful, ultimately.  Considering how hard it is to link Fool's Gold, Crossroads, and Treasure Map together, I'd say this is usually a useless card and, when it hits, has the least benefit of any of those others.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2011, 12:04:24 pm »
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One "advantage" to Rats is, you are pretty much guaranteed to pile-it once you buy two. That can be a useful thing in games.

I have tested variants that gain themselves as you play them, and it immediately opens up a fast opportunity to 3-pile. Games like that can be exciting, because you have to think about just how fast the game is going to be and it can change the structure of chasing Provinces (or it might not, chasing Provinces might still be the wiser route, which is good, that's what you want, you want alternate victory paths that sometimes work and sometimes don't).

I suspect, one of the things that makes Rats functional, isn't just the ability (which rinks breaks down perfectly), it's that its a virtual guarantee to pile without a lot of effort and without slowing you down on getting the other two piles to deplete.

Test it and see, I could be wrong, but the one card I had that provided this additional dynamic, was actually quite fun to both play and assess. It was a vastly different card and price, but cards that gain themselves and deplete their own supply make for some interesting tactics.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:06:29 pm by ChaosRed »
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2011, 12:05:31 pm »
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@rinkworks: i hear you, but +2 Cards and +2 Actions at a 1$ cost is pretty good, and the first Rats helps you get to the 2nd if it isn't already in your hand. so, i'm trying to think of other ways to get more Rats into the deck to take advantage of this: 1) give them away during Buy phase, which Jack pointed out could easily be broken. 2) give them away when you use them, which Jack also thought would deplete the Rats pile, but i'm not so sure i'm with him on this one, or 3) my 3rd possible change (above) letting them go up to 3 rats high, but then trashing them, encouraging a Rats player to buy more simply based on possible power level.

please tell me which of 3 Rats options i've listed in Reply #35 you guys like best!
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2011, 12:15:31 pm »
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@rinkworks: i hear you, but +2 Cards and +2 Actions at a 1$ cost is pretty good, and the first Rats helps you get to the 2nd if it isn't already in your hand.

The first Rats doesn't help you at all.  +1 Card, +1 Action only gets you back to the hand you'd have had if you hadn't had that card at all.  As for +2 Cards, +2 Actions being great, yes it is.  But it's not as good as the $4 the second Fool's Gold gives you, or the four Golds Treasure Map gives you.  In fact, playing two Rats only gives you ONE extra card and ONE extra action above and beyond what you'd have had if you hadn't bought or played ANY Rats.  It's an extremely meager benefit for something you have to collide to earn.

The fact that it's a one-time bonus, too, instead of something you can chain like Laboratory (the chances of being able to chain four or more are extremely remote) makes it weaker still.

So far, I think the "gain a Rats" variation is the best one (provided my understanding, rather than Jack's, is what you intend), but I'm kind of doubtful that the card can really be balanced at all.  There's a reason, by the way, that there are no $1 cards.  A lot of it has to do with how easy it would be to deplete a pile of $1 cards if there are extra buys in play.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2011, 12:21:33 pm »
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I wonder if we're interpreting the card differently.  The way I read it -- which may not be the intended way -- the first Rats is a cantrip, the second is a Lab/Village.  But then, since both Rats are discarded, the third Rats you play is only a cantrip again.  The fourth is another Lab/Village.  I don't see this has being very powerful, ultimately.  Considering how hard it is to link Fool's Gold, Crossroads, and Treasure Map together, I'd say this is usually a useless card and, when it hits, has the least benefit of any of those others.
I think the discarding has a large effect here: When you've played two of them for the Village-Lab effect, they then go into your discard pile, so they can be called again... and again... and again... (this is, I grant you, thematically appropriate for rats). A sufficiently rat-infested deck can probably play as many terminals as it likes.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2011, 12:27:26 pm »
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I think the discarding has a large effect here: When you've played two of them for the Village-Lab effect, they then go into your discard pile, so they can be called again... and again... and again... (this is, I grant you, thematically appropriate for rats). A sufficiently rat-infested deck can probably play as many terminals as it likes.

And it is easily depleted...really guys I can't emphasize enough how this changes the tactics of a kingdom. All it takes is one easy, effortless depletion to really change the entire dynamic of a kingdom.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2011, 01:33:03 pm »
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thanks for the input guys.
based on all your concerns, i think this is the version i'm going to go with:

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, “If there are 3 Rats in play (including this one), immediately put them into your discard pile."

i think the possible power is enough to tempt folks into using extra Buys to pick them up. and they're fun to play with, and that should be taken into consideration. it's not all numbers.
rinkworks is wrong about the 1st Rat doing nothing but replacing itself. it also sets up the 2nd and 3rd Rats. this is crucial when considering their power. the power of the 3rd Rats justifies the weakness of the 1st one. going up to 3 Rats makes the netgain +3 Cards (rather than the +1 Card from 2 Rats played, as rinkworks pointed out).
as far as the 1$ cost, i think it's justified and fits/works.

as far as this being the best/perfect Dominion card. well, they can't all be, can they? as long as it's not broken and still useful, i like Rats enough to keep it. the flavor trumps minor questions about its possible utility.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 02:35:32 pm by plasticbrain »
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2011, 02:00:36 pm »
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I think you're both wrong - the first Rats does absolutely nothing!! The first time you play a Rats there are, unfortunately, no Rats in play. So you get nothing. Or at least that's how I understand it (considering that you can play cards without them ever being in play with KC/TR). So I think the wording needs to be fixed. :)

Strange variation suggestion (but cornucopia messes with the basic rules a fair bit here so...) - if the Rats get hammered, have you considered having a stack of 20? I think +1 card, +1 action for the first Rats is ok, I mean, pawn often gets used for that, and great halls have that and only cost one more than an estate for the luxury.

As for gaining a curse....dunno, seems a bit rough. Why not have it trash one of the rats instead?

Relief - in trashing games, remodel games and multi-player this will be strictly better than Gold in no time - significantly cheaper and with a +Buy to boot. That's not good in my opinion. The times when there's useful stuff in the trash is not that often, I'll give you that, but the time when there's 6 or more cards in the trash is...well, that's pretty often I'd say. Often by the end of turn 4 in a 3 or 4 player game. You could up the card count, but would risk gimping it in 2 player.

Relief and Morgue both work too well with Chapel. Open Chapel, Relief - then trash 4, relief is now worth $2 with a +buy. Next time chapel shows, Relief is a gold. And you have free +buy so you can hammer the fuck of out them, with the hammer-the-fuck-out-of-them factor being self-multiplying by virtue of being able to freely play treasures, thus getting tons of +buys with the cash to boot. Morgue: Chapel allows you to remove the weakness of Morgue while reaping the most benefits with a concentrated deck. Still, Chapel is a powerful card and has that kind of effect. Not sure how people feels about this in perspective with other Chapel combos (eg Fool's Gold seems similar-ish)
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2011, 02:06:29 pm »
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I think you're both wrong - the first Rats does absolutely nothing!! The first time you play a Rats there are, unfortunately, no Rats in play. So you get nothing. Or at least that's how I understand it (considering that you can play cards without them ever being in play with KC/TR). So I think the wording needs to be fixed. :)
it's my understanding that a card being played is 'in play' at the same moment. which is to say a card doesn't 'do' anything (including count stuff), until it's 'in play.'
if this is not the case, please let me know, rules gurus!

and here's another version of Relief...
Relief – Treasure – 4$
+1 Buy, “If you play no other Treasure cards this turn, this is worth +4$. Otherwise, this is worth +1$."
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 02:28:19 pm by plasticbrain »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2011, 02:34:24 pm »
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plasticbrain is correct on the effect of playing the first Rats.  For precedence see Conspirator.

Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2011, 03:02:49 pm »
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Conspirator goes off actions in play? News to me. It goes off number of actions that you have played, which is different. Doesn't mean I'm right of course, but that example doesn't prove the point. It's not important either way though really.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 03:07:19 pm by Octo »
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2011, 03:06:44 pm »
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thanks Deadlock39 for the clarification.

so i'm thinking of changing the name of Inheritance to Morgue, and vice versa and then the new Inheritance (old Morgue) would be this:

Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

whatd'ya think of this?
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2011, 03:40:01 pm »
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Regarding whether a card just played is "in play," Octo is right that Conspirator is not a good example of this, since it goes off actions played.  But Bank and Horn of Plenty suggest that a card just played is indeed a card in play.  Attack cards are also subtle evidence of this:  Moat/Secret Chamber/Horse Traders trigger "when another player plays an attack card," during which time the attack card is in play.  Thus, it is certainly in play by the time the attacker can get back to acting upon it.

That said, it does make sense that Rats should have a "(counting this)" clarifier, just as Bank and Horn of Plenty (and coincidentally Conspirator) also do.

rinkworks is wrong about the 1st Rat doing nothing but replacing itself. it also sets up the 2nd and 3rd Rats. this is crucial when considering their power.

You're arguing semantics.  Obviously the first Rat paves the way for the second, but that doesn't make the first Rat powerful.  It makes the second Rat powerful.  The reason why it's important to look at it that way is because there may only BE one Rat.  And in that case, the first Rat, as I said, does nothing.

Fool's Gold is the same way.  You don't say, "Well, the second Fool's Gold is worth $4, which is pretty great, but WOW -- the FIRST Fool's Gold enables that, so it's extra powerful!"  On the contrary, the first Fool's Gold is a Copper and always a Copper and never anything but a Copper, and the whole reason you can price a $4 treasure at $2 is because that first one is so terrible.

That said, the version you have now, going up to three, is pretty stupendous.  You've basically got a Laboratory chain now that's a little harder to kick off but which provides lots of actions.  The reason why only going up to 2 is a lot weaker is because that first Rat doesn't really help you connect multiple Rats together.  But the second Rat does, and after playing the third you've just drawn enough cards into your hand that you'll probably easily be able to suck more into your hand.  Again, look at Laboratory chains to see this in action:  after three plays of a Laboratory, you'll have drawn exactly as many cards as three plays of a Rats will get you.  And usually after three plays of a Laboratory, you have no problem playing all the other Laboratories in your deck.

The difference is:  (1) after playing three Rats, you put those three Rats back into your deck to draw to and play, and (2) after three Rats, you have more than just your one action but all the actions you're ever likely to need.

All for a price of $1?  This is $5 easy now.
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2011, 03:48:41 pm »
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Morgue – Action – 5$
 “Gain a curse. if you do, +4 cards. Otherwise, +2 cards and you may trash a card from your hand."

Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

I think you're underestimating the harm curses do.  Remember, being able to open Witch or Mountebank is sometimes enough to decide the game outright.  In this version of Inheritance, your average card value increases more if you just take the Silver.  So the Gold/Curse option is a worse deal strictly in monetary terms, never mind the negative effect of a Curse on your score.  The one good thing about the Gold/Curse option is that it increases the variance of your hands, which can be a good thing, but I can't see that making up for junking your own deck.

In the first example, you'd definitely never take the curse.  +2 Cards and optionally trashing a card is Masquerade without the card passing, which, despite being the flashiest part of that card, is the least important.  Morgue + Big Money, never playing Morgue with the curse option, probably wins most games.  When I suggested an "if you do" clause, I was not thinking it would have an "otherwise" clause at all.  You can have one, but it shouldn't be outright better than the "if you do" part.
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