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Author Topic: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)  (Read 26977 times)

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plasticbrain

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Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« on: November 19, 2011, 07:07:42 pm »
+3

Hail, weary pilgrim... rest while I tell a dark tale of disaster.... and redemption!  On comes Plague, a dangerous new mini-expansion for Dominion. I hope you 'enjoy' Curses as much as I do... mwah ha ha HAAAA!!

... bear in mind, that only 5 of these 13 cards actually give Curses. I also designed them specifically so  while they have fun interactions amongst themselves, they could go into any random Dominion game and be fun individually. let me know what you think, but please spend a little time with them. Their dark, risky edge brings something pretty different to the Dominion universe, but that doesn't make them bad or not fun. My whole concept was to make Curses fun afterall!
--Don Riddle 'plasticbrain'

Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 2$; or gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile.”

Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
"Trash this card and each other player gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the supply. Then, shuffle that pile and the Rats pile together into a single pile."

Poisoned Well – Action – 2$
+1 Action, +2$, “Return all Curses from the trash pile to the supply. When you gain this, gain a Curse.”

Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, “You may trash a card from your hand. If that card is a Curse, +1 Action, +1$.”

Plague Doctor – Action-Reaction – 3$
+2$, "During your Buy Phase, cards from the Plague expansion cost 1$ less, but not less than 0$." / “When you would gain a card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, instead, trash that card; then at the start of your next turn, +1 Action and return this to your hand.”

Outbreak – Action-Attack – 3$
“Reveal your hand. If you reveal a Curse, each other player gains a Curse. Otherwise, gain a card costing up to 5$ and gain a Curse.”

Missionaries – Action – 3$
+1 Card, +1 Buy, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 cards with a cost of 0 from it, and trash them.”

Quarantine – Action – 3$
+1 Action, +1 Card, “When you play this, you may put 2 Curses from the supply onto your Quarantine mat. For every 2 Curses on your Quarantine mat, choose one: +1 Card; or +1 Buy; or +1$. Return all Curses on your Quarantine mat to your deck at the end of the game.”

Relief – Treasure – 3$
 +1 Buy, +1$, “ “If this is the first time you played a Treasure card this turn, you may immediately reveal your hand and discard all other Treasure cards from it. If you do, +3$."

Morgue – Action – 4$
"Reveal all cards in your discard pile. Choose one of them and put it into your hand."

Inheritance – Action – 5$
“Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Duchy and a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

Sewers – Action-Victory – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “Trash a card from your hand. Gain a number of Coppers equal to its cost in coins."

Miracle – Action – 6$
+3 Action, +3 Buy, “Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. If all 3 cards have the same cost, gain a prize or a Duchy. Discard the revealed cards.”


that's all of them. thanks for looking... and commenting!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 11:36:47 am by plasticbrain »
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Graystripe77

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2011, 07:17:13 pm »
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Scavenger: I think there has been discussion about gaining from the trash, and it's really hard to balance out, so I would probably scrap the card.

Rats: Interesting concept, not quite sure how a $1 cost card could be very balanced though, kind of hard to tell now. Looks interesting with trashing on the board.

Poisoned Well: Hmmmmm, self cursing card. I don't know if it's good or bad, hard for me to tell.

Medicine: I have a similar card in my fan expansion that I'm going to put up soon. After some testing, it seemed a little strong for it's cost, maybe make it cost $4 since it's an optional effect.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2011, 08:08:44 pm »
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some changes
 from...
Poisoned Well – Action – 2$
+1 Action, +1$, “Each player (including you) gains a Curse.”
 to...
Poisoned Well – Action – 2$
+1 Action, +2$, “Return all Curses from the trash pile to the supply. When you gain this, gain a Curse.”

 and from...
Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, +1 Action, “You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1 Card.”
 to...
Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, +1 Action, “You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1$.”

also, changed Miracle cost from 5 to 6, to keep it from being bought/played too early, when decks are mostly Coppers.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 10:54:27 pm by plasticbrain »
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Titandrake

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2011, 11:55:37 pm »
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With regards to Medicine:

I am pretty sure that $2 cost is too low for Medicine. I regularly buy Upgrade at $5 for the main purpose of trashing Coppers, which is essentially -$1. Sure, Upgrade lets you change Estates into Silvers (and Upgrades into Gold), but even the Copper trashing utility is quite good. I would maybe try it out at $4.

You know, now that I think about it, there aren't that many non-terminal trashers. Of the ones that exist (Apprentice, Upgrade, Governor kind of), they all cost $5 or more. The ability to chain them together is a strong effect that I find sometimes goes underrated.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2011, 12:06:42 am »
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Medicine is indeed just a tad too strong at 2$.

Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card, +1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1$.

You might find that removing the +1 Action will keep the card at 2$ however. A terminal that trashes a single card, is not that strong. In fact, it can test out to be quite weak. I tested this card for example:



...the above card isn't the same of course, it doesn't give you the same range of ability (it provides choice and defense instead), but I can tell you that card rated horribly as one of the worst buys that I tested. Also I had another card that allowed you to trash copper for +1 card, and it was also one of the worst rated cards. Bailey is getting a similar revision to what you've listed, for its next test (it has two +1$ effects one as the primary and one as the "reward" for trashing), but it remains terminal.

So a terminal card that trashes one card isn't that strong. A cantrip that trashes however will rate MUCH higher. Even the weakest trashers in my testing, tested really well if they had a +action to them, as they allowed the turn to continue, often allowing a stronger terminal to end the turn after the trashing.

You may find otherwise, but I would say Medicine is not costed right as it stands.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 12:43:45 am »
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Medicine is indeed just a tad too strong at 2$.

i'm comparing Medicine to cards like Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Pawn and Cellar. i  think it's actually less powerful than all of those cards, or at least on par. i did change it from +1 Card on the conditional trash effect to +1$ because i realized that heavy trashing strategies would benefit too much. i think the 1$ bonus is incentive but not unfair value.
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chwhite

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2011, 12:54:05 am »
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Medicine is indeed just a tad too strong at 2$.

i'm comparing Medicine to cards like Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Pawn and Cellar. i  think it's actually less powerful than all of those cards, or at least on par. i did change it from +1 Card on the conditional trash effect to +1$ because i realized that heavy trashing strategies would benefit too much. i think the 1$ bonus is incentive but not unfair value.

Try comparing it to Upgrade, which is very often used to do the exact same thing on Coppers, without the $1 bonus.  It's way too strong at $2.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2011, 04:48:53 am »
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but seriously, before they were published, would you have said that Hamlet or Pawn were too strong at 2$? i think so. maybe Medicine pushes a little, but it's still totally reasonable. Upgrade is not a good comparison just because it trashes a card; what it can potentially do (despite how it's commoonly used) is much stronger than what Medicine does, which results in a greater cost.  if my playtesting proves otherwise, then i'll change it. but right now, i'm leaving Medicine alone. i've changed it's cost from 2$ to 3$.(note that i already weakened it once before based on feedback here).
and to show i'm listening, here's my tweak of Sewers to be more playable in decks without Curses...
from...
Sewers – Action-Victory – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 2 Curses in your deck (rounded down).” / “Gain a Curse.”
to...
Sewers Victory-Reaction – 5$
“Worth 1 Victory for every 3 cards with a cost of 0$ in your deck (rounded down).” / “When another player trashes a card with a cost of 0$, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, gain that card from the trash pile.”

also tweaked this from...
Rats – Action – 1$
+2 Actions, “Gain a Curse; put it into your hand. When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on top of your deck.”
 to...
Rats – Action – 1$
+2 Actions, “Gain a Curse; put it into your hand. When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on top of any player's deck.”
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 05:39:12 am by plasticbrain »
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def

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2011, 06:06:09 am »
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Medicine looks still way to strong. There is a reason why a nonterminal trasher like lookout isn't doing much besides trashing and cycling another card, has the risk of forced trashing of good cards, and still costs 3 and is useful.

Open two medicines. Unless you draw two coppers and three estates, you are guaranteed to trash at least one estate and a copper while buying two silvers in the next two turns. In hands with silver and medicine, you can buy a gold while still trashing bad cards. Soon, you got rid of all your bad cards while loading up with silver and gold. Medicine does not hurt your current hand in contrast to any other trasher but Masquerade (or Mine). Finally, one medicine can trash the other one. And then they are nonterminal, so you can buy militia, mountebank or anything useful instead of one or two silvers. You can even buy four medicines, they don't conflict with eachother.

Example:
turn 3 and 4 trash one estate and one copper, buy two silvers; reshuffle: deck: 6 coppers, two estates, two silvers, two medicines.
turn 5 and 6: let's say silver copper copper copper medicine, drawing a copper, trashing it, buying a gold, and copper, copper, estate, estate, medicine, drawing a silver, trashing an estate, buying a useful 5.
So now we have 5 coppers, one estate, two silvers, one gold, one useful 5, and two medicines.
From here on, you can pretty much buy gold or province every turn without clogging your deck since you are continuing to trash bad cards.
You can even buy three or four of them early on, it doesn't hurt (though i doubt it's better).

Missionaries has a similar problem, but it suffers from being drawn right after a reshuffle. Otherwise, trashing two bad cards while drawing two cards and improving the hand is really strong.

I'd like to see double medicine in simulation against double jack of all trades.

I don't want to go in detail with the other cards, but many seem to be in contrast to unwritten principles in Dominion.
Like, 0 and 1 cost kingdom cards, +3 buys which you won't need but in special situations. It's not bad per se to break with conventions, but, to put it carefully, some of your statements ("I'm comparing medicine with pearl diver") just give the impression that you misjudge some cards and basic concepts. Try to look around here, there are many useful threads and posts to help you like rinkworks' fan card creation guide.
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2011, 07:18:45 am »
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Very thematic and some really nice ideas, though a couple fundamental issues with some of the cards for me:

Rats: Donald X. (the maker) has specifically tried to remove game politics from dominion, which is why all the attacks cannot be target at anyone. Personally this is something I really like about the game. The most specific it gets is with cards like Tribute that target the person to your left. Your card, rats, is essentially an attack, and it allows you to pick on one player to be the victim.

Relic: this card will be no use in a game with no trashing (which is relatively common).

Poisoned Well: still some use when there's curse giving cards (+1 action, +2$) but then it's a very different card and will balance very differently. Would you buy a +1 action, +2$ card for 2 if you got a curse? Not really. Probably best to just take a copper if you're that desperate, or usually nothing at all.

Scavenger: again, no real use if there's no trashing cards. Sure you can gain a copper into hand, and maybe you might want to get it for some kind of counting house scenario, but then with no +action you'll want to be using something better for your action, so you'd probably be better off just buying a copper in the first place. Dunno. Also, 0$ for a card that get me a gold or province out of the trash? (God forbid a platinum or colony) Sheesh, that's crazy good. (They can be forced in by saboteur, rushed in by end-game acceleration.) But then most of the time it could be really useless as obviously most of it is junk (hence the 0$ cost) - so as mentioned by Graystripe77, gaining from the trash is super hard to balance.

Having said that, I like the way the theme interacts amongst the cards. I wonder if it's similar to Alchemy in the way that it would be best when there's 3 or 4 from the same set. I also wonder if, like Alchemy, you might be better served by adding a new card like "plague" or "contagion" that's similar to curses but allows you more freedom with the mechanics.

Quarantine: I like quarantine, but I think it's underpowered. Consider a Pawn. It gives you two of those benefits, only costs $2 (half the price) and doesn't involve getting 4 curses. So while quarantine could be super-charged, you'd need to take some serious curses to make that happen. Granted, those curses won't be clogging up your deck - which is an interesting feature - so it's just negative points, but would I really like to spend 4 actions and -8 VPs just to turn my quarantines into what is either a lvl2 city, a Worker's Village, a bazaar or a market? Sounds like too much hard work to me. I wonder what it would be like at one curse per increment. How has this card played out in your testing?

Outbreak - again, great theme. Not too sure about gaining the $5 card, but again I'm curious to hear how this has gone in playtesting. Overall I think this card is a nice idea - you need to be cursed to dish them out etc.

Hmm, overall though the strong theme and interactions are really appealing. Keep tweaking!
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ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2011, 12:33:25 pm »
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i'm comparing Medicine to cards like Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Pawn and Cellar. i  think it's actually less powerful than all of those cards, or at least on par. i did change it from +1 Card on the conditional trash effect to +1$ because i realized that heavy trashing strategies would benefit too much. i think the 1$ bonus is incentive but not unfair value.

You might be right, your testing will inform you if you are right or not. I think the adjustments you made were good (changing it to 3$ in particular was the right move I think). One thing I learned is that a card's value and worth really only truly manifests in testing. Even in real expansions this is true. At first glance, Jack of all Trades seemed decent but not really strong, but the testing of the best players revealed it to be one of the best supporters of big money in the game.

That's the joy of testing, you begin to discover the hidden secrets of your own expansion, you didn't even see. I wish you great luck with your testing, it is great fun.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2011, 03:04:06 pm »
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@Octo: this was intended to be a "dark" expansion, so i like how rats breaks from the norm and can "attack" a single player. but i think it's balanced by the fact that it can only really hurt (curse) you if you use it. of course, using it is the only way to get rid of it! (other than trashing, which there's a lot of in this set.)
and i'm still believing in Scavenger. you say it could gain a Province from the trash? when? when is there a Province in the trash? yes, it could maybe get a Gold after somebody's Remodel, but that's what it's about. mostly, it'll be an enabler for some other strategy, but occassionally it can get something good, or slow down an opponent who's afraid of putting good stuff in the trash for you. i think, how small its effect is most times balances the unlikely but possible big effect it can have.

and now, some changes...
 first eveybody's favorite, from...
Medicine – Action – 3$
+1 Card, +1 Action, “You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1$.”
 to...
Medicine – Action – 2$
+1 Card,^ “You may trash a card from your hand. If that card is a Curse, +1 Action, +1$.

 and from...
Quarantine – Action – 4$
“When you play this, you may put 2 Curses from the supply onto your Quarantine mat. For every 2 Curses on your Quarantine mat, choose one: +1 Card; or +1 Action; or +1 Buy; or +1$. Return all Curses on your Quarantine mat to your deck at the end of the game.”
 to...
Quarantine – Action – 3$
+1 Action, “When you play this, you may put 2 Curses from the supply onto your Quarantine mat. For every 2 Curses on your Quarantine mat, choose one:+1 Card;^ or +1 Buy; or +1$. Return all Curses on your Quarantine mat to your deck at the end of the game.”

 and from...
Relic – Treasure – 4$
+1$, “When you play this, gain a card costing up to 1$ per every 2 cards in the trash pile (rounded down). If it’s a Victory card, trash this.”
 to...
Relief – Treasure – 5$
-1$, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”

 and from...
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+2 Cards, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 cards from it, and trash them.”
 to...
Missionaries – Action – 3$
+2 Cards, “You may immediately look through your discard pile, reveal up to 2 non-Copper cards from it, and trash them.”

let me know what you think...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 03:45:39 pm by plasticbrain »
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2011, 03:52:02 pm »
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Erm, when is there a province in the trash? Well, I trash provinces deliberately relatively often. You push your province advantage by trashing a province and just replace it with another - use either Forge, Remodel, Salvager or various other cards. It really is quite common I think. Saboteur is the other obvious province trasher. I'm pretty sure we've all had a province (or more than one) trashed by saboteur which is super painful, it would be ridiculous to  have it trash, then the other chap gain it for themselves in the same turn....a 20VP swing (if colonies) with 2 actions? And still a buy to go? That's a bit much.

" i think, how small its effect is most times balances the unlikely but possible big effect it can have." - this is classic pitfall of game balance (computer games or whatever). "Item A is generally pretty useless, but occasionally it's fucking awesome" just smacks of ropey balance to me. It makes game really really swingy, which detracts from the feeling that you're in control of the game. Note also that just because you can both buy it, doesn't make it a balanced card.

Now, you could argue that the presence of scavenger what deter you from trashing stuff, which is fair enough, but the fact that you can't get things back from the trash is inherent in the benefits you gain in trashing. Take apprentice. (+1 action, Trash a card, get +cards equal to its cost). That's going to be silly good - trash a province or colony, knowing full well you'll have a scavenger in there eventually which cost you nothing, use the extra cards to buy another province and scavenge the old one back in the meantime. That's crazy good. The whole reason you get 8 cards for trashing a province (8 cards is loads!) is because it's working under the assumption that you are genuinely trashing that and giving it up. How about Upgrade - trash a province into a platinum, then gain the province back immediately after. Free platinum, due to 0$ cost card. I dunno.

Anyway, I don't understand quite why you'd want it normally. Most of the stuff in the trash is junk, obviously. I'll be a little more constructive and say how about scavenging through your discard pile and putting something on the top of your deck?

As with all these cards, I'd be interested to hear how they performed in play-testing.

Rats - Ah I misunderstood Rats, right, you put the RATS on top of their deck, and not the curse. I see. Hmm, bit more complex that way. With the abundance of villages out there, I'd surprised if I found myself need +2 actions at the risk of gaining a curse. Still, if its the Rats getting passed that make it more interesting and less of an attack.

Quarantine - dunno, 2 curses each time is just a lot for one bonus I think. they don't clog up your deck, but the extra VPs you'll need to compensate will. 4 curses will require 2 VP cards to compensate (assuming a 4/4 split), and that's only going to gain you a laboratory really, or worse a treasury without the benefit. The versatility is nice, sure, but I'm not sure it's adequate compensation. The flip-side however is that turns into an absolute monster of a card if you take 8 curses. +4 cards + 1 action - hard to balance for sure. Needs play-testing for sure. Might be worth considering a max limit to number of bonuses. Or 1 bonus per curse etc.

Missionaries - in a game where you don't get cursed, there's very little else you're going to want to trash other than copper and the starting estates. Compare to steward, which can do both things, but only one at a time - this card does both (+2 cards, and 2 trashes) and without gimping your hand from trashes too.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 03:55:05 pm by Octo »
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2011, 04:09:01 pm »
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Missionaries - in a game where you don't get cursed, there's very little else you're going to want to trash other than copper and the starting estates. Compare to steward, which can do both things, but only one at a time - this card does both (+2 cards, and 2 trashes) and without gimping your hand from trashes too.
but you can't trash Coppers. i think you answered your own question there. i fixed this card. yes, it can do both, but only to get rid of non-Copper stuff which is very different from straight up trashing.

but you HAVE convinced me to change Scavenger... a little...
 from...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one: gain a card from the trash pile; or gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.”
 to...
Scavenger – Action – 0$
“Choose one: gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile; or gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.”
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 04:11:38 pm by plasticbrain »
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2011, 07:07:45 pm »
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Yes, you can't trash coppers. My point I guess that if you can't trash coppers and you're not getting cursed, then really, what's it for? If you are getting cursed, then it's great, too good probably - timing is far less an issue than other trashers, and unlike other trashers it doesn't reduce your hand size, so it's similar too but way better than a steward. If you CAN trash coppers it's - as mentioned before - too good also, for the same reasons.

An interesting idea could be you must trash two things from your discard pile. Bear in mind that you're not allowed to look through your discard pile. However, that's not as thematic.

Scavenger - definitely an improvement. Needs playtesting. Still, a cost of $0 though, bit odd. Don't think anyone will ever use it to gain a copper though.

Relic: -1$, needs clarification if you're going to keep that - what happens if I have -1 total money? (i.e. Relic on its own) Further, you need a Relic, and two $0s just to make it to $1 to spend from the relic.....3 cards to get $1 that's ... well, that's terrible. And it costs $5. You need a lot of junk in your hand to make this worth it. Even with the possibility of getting 2 curses and coppers + relic in my hand say, I reckon I'd still buy a silver as there's more occasions that it will be useful.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2011, 08:15:42 pm »
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Yes, you can't trash coppers. My point I guess that if you can't trash coppers and you're not getting cursed, then really, what's it for? If you are getting cursed, then it's great, too good probably - timing is far less an issue than other trashers, and unlike other trashers it doesn't reduce your hand size, so it's similar too but way better than a steward. If you CAN trash coppers it's - as mentioned before - too good also, for the same reasons.
Steward has a 3rd option (+2$) and is way less limited in its trashing than Missionaries. Missionaries is not stronger than Steward. it's really very different. it has its own particular strengths and weaknesses.

Quote
Bear in mind that you're not allowed to look through your discard pile. However, that's not as thematic.
that's why it has the text "You may immediately look through your discard pile." card text trumps rules. the Hinterlands card Inn lets you look through your discard pile, too, so it's not a new effect.

Quote
Scavenger - definitely an improvement. Needs playtesting. Still, a cost of $0 though, bit odd. Don't think anyone will ever use it to gain a copper though.
i'm glad you like this at least  :D i must admit, i think it's better now. but i also think it will definitely get used to gain the Copper! remember, it goes to your hand, so when you need that 1$ more to buy that Gold or Victory card, you're gonna use this.

Quote
Relic: -1$, needs clarification if you're going to keep that - what happens if I have -1 total money? (i.e. Relic on its own) Further, you need a Relic, and two $0s just to make it to $1 to spend from the relic.....3 cards to get $1 that's ... well, that's terrible. And it costs $5. You need a lot of junk in your hand to make this worth it. Even with the possibility of getting 2 curses and coppers + relic in my hand say, I reckon I'd still buy a silver as there's more occasions that it will be useful.
you don't have to play any Treasure card. and i think it's rather obvious what happens when you have negative money: same as when you have no money. and as far as the cost, it has to be 5$ because with Coppers, and curses (and maybe even a Scavenger  ;) ) around, and any card drawing, this can often be a Gold in the early game. i'd like to make it cost 4$ but i don't think i can. i'd be interested what other folks think on this... also, this is one of those cards that rewards you for holding onto/gaining coppers. and a sub-theme to my set is the poverity caused by plague, so rewarding the player for Coppers rather than big money.

EDIT: added +1 Buy to Relief for 2 reasons: 1) i needed another + Buy card in the set, and 2) this card needed a bit more to justify the 5$ cost.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 11:17:09 pm by plasticbrain »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2011, 11:20:01 pm »
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Relief – Treasure – 5$
-1$, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”
This combos spectacularly well with Highway.
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dondon151

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2011, 12:59:32 am »
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Steward has a 3rd option (+2$) and is way less limited in its trashing than Missionaries. Missionaries is not stronger than Steward. it's really very different. it has its own particular strengths and weaknesses.
Did you actually test this? As in, play enough games to produce a statistically significant win rate with / win rate without figure?

Plus, if Jack of All Trades is any indication, you don't need to trash Coppers to win an assisted Big Money game. Granted, JoAT does flood your deck with Silver, but still. You can also compared this to Masquerade, which is one of the best Big Money enablers - Masquerade has the same draw effect, and has a lesser trashing ability (it only trashes 1 card at a time). Missionaries can't trash Coppers, but the primary function of Masquerade is to trash Estates, not Coppers, since Estates drag down your average deck value more. I suppose the only problem with this card is if you open with it and there is nothing in your discard.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2011, 02:16:45 am »
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I suppose the only problem with this card is if you open with it and there is nothing in your discard.
this 'problem' is more of a limitation and is a part of the reason i think the card is fair and not as powerful as cards like Masquerade.

but, no, i haven't tested it enough yet, so we'll see...
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2011, 10:19:07 am »
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I'm late to this thread, and others have already said most of the things I would.  But here's one card that jumped out at me as a problem:

Inheritance – Action – 4$
+2 Cards, +2$, “When you would discard this from play, instead, you may put this on the bottom of your deck.”

A card that was merely +2 Cards and +$2 would all by itself be a ~$7 card.  Basically you can think of +1 Card as being roughly as powerful as +$1, though one might be rather more powerful than the other in any given situation.  You can tell this based on what your average card value is.   It's $0.7 at the start of the game, usually well above $1 or even $2 in the mid-game, and drops again once you start greening.

Anyway, just by looking at the base treasure cards, you can tell that each extra +$1 results in a price jump of about $3.  Similarly, you can see this same increase when you compare Moat and Smithy.  Moat is +2 Cards AND an extra benefit, so figure that a card merely offering +2 Cards should cost less than $2.   Smithy, meanwhile, offers +3 Cards and costs $4.  So again, approximately a $3 price jump.

Now, how much should +2 Cards, +$2 cost?  Start with a reactionless Moat, assuming a cost of $1.  Now throw in +$1, raising the price to $4.  Do it again, raising the price to $7.  Alternately, start with Smithy.  Swap out one of the +Cards for +$1.  Now add another +$1, increasing the price by $3 to $7.

You have to take calculations like that with a grain of salt.  The cost scale is not linear, and the overall effect of a card might strengthen or weaken the power of any of its individual effects.  Nonetheless, a card that is merely "+2 Cards, +$2" is very simple and well-understood; thus, calculations like this will be more precise than they would with something more exotic.

Anyway, so you have this $7 card and throw on its "when you discard" effect.  To be able to drop the price down all the way to $4, this effect had better be a huge, huge drawback.  In fact, it is not.  At the beginning of the game, and any game with heavy trashing, you'll be able to play this card about as often as you would anyway.  At first glance, I thought this would cause the card to miss every other shuffle, but it really doesn't.  In fact, I think it speeds up the frequency with which you get to use it.

If it's at the beginning or middle of your deck when you first shuffle it in, you get to use it and then use it AGAIN on that same shuffle.  If it's at the end, the reshuffle happens during the hand you draw it (either as you draw that hand or after playing the card), and then you STILL get to it again faster than you would if you had merely discarded it normally after play.

So basically in all cases, the card is played more frequently.  The "When you discard" clause is a clear benefit, thus raising the power level of the card further.  Though costs are more negotiable at the upper tiers, it seems like $8 might be reasonable.  That's pretty crazy.

I think if you knock out one of the +Cards or one of the +$s, you'd have a fine $5 card on your hands.  I guess I'd prefer to lose a +Card, for two reasons:  (1) to differentiate it more from Smithy, and (2) because the official cards seem to value terminal $ slightly more than terminal draw (compare Moat to Duchess), and I'm not sure the "when you discard" clause is enough by itself to cross the critical $4->$5 price gap.

Testing will help you figure this balance out.  I'm kind of interested to hear how the "when you discard" behavior feels in an actual game.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2011, 10:45:10 am »
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Did you actually test this? As in, play enough games to produce a statistically significant win rate with / win rate without figure?

I know I keep preaching this, but testing is just so key. It is vital to refining any variant. rink's advice is platinum, but even he'd concede that all his advice has to be tested, there's just no substitute for it.

plastic, take our advice here with a grain of salt. Ultimately this is your creation, and ultimately the power-balance of the variant should reflect your own tastes and preference. It might seem we are overly critical or pedantic in our review of your work. Don't take that the wrong way.

I am an exception in that I don't know Dominion that well, but others here are quite well-versed in the game. Naturally, they are going to bring their great experience to bear in their analysis. I can tell you however, that when I heeded the advice they gave me, my set improved vastly. There is some validity to the "wisdom of crowds".

But don't take that as a sign we don't appreciate or admire your effort here, and ultimately if you feel strongly about a card's value/power then stick to your guns. But do test it out, nothing will prove your evaluation better than a strong set of test data.

I think you have a fascinating set of cards here.
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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2011, 11:42:42 am »
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Most things were said. But I like to add my opinions too.
Scavenger: As already been said, gaining from the trash pile seems straight forward, but is problematic. I think the most problematic thing is, that every card should give at least some benefit on every board. With a board with no trashers, this is a dead card. So if you really want to add the "gain from trash"-thematic, please let the card it self be a trasher. “Choose one:  gain a card costing up to 5$ from the trash pile; or trash a card from your hand.”

Rats: Why do you cost it $1? I can't see any reason for this. I have no problem for a card costing $1. But when, I think you have to do this on purpose, for a good reason. Letting it cost $2 doesn't change much. The bigger problem is: Dominion is designed to be a non-political game. A targeted "attack" is something I personally don't like, and if you do that, it may be a theme of a whole expansion I think. Why not: "put this on top of the deck from the player to your left".
With the 2 fixes, the card could be interesting, but needs to be playtested for sure.

Poisoned Well: +1 Action, +2$ is at least a $3-card. You try to fix that with gaining a curse. I'm not sure, but using this as a cheap silver could work, but returning all curses to the supply, could get crazy if you try to build a witch-heavy deck. I even think this could end in a lockout, in which one player is cursing and the other player tries to trash them indefinitely ... This needs to be play-tested.

Medicine: Looks nice. But this may also a dead card, if there are no curse-giving cards on the board, especially if Chapel is there too. Changing that into "If that card costs $0" may work.

Plague Doctor: Nice one, seems a little bit weak in comparism to Trader with only $1 cheaper. Maybe let it cost $2?

Outbreak: Nice conditional curser. First one I really like as-is.

Missionaries: I suggest changing it to +2$ instead of +2 cards. Trigger a reshuffle with this could really be frustrating. Trashing cards that are not in hand is new and nice, but I don't know how this may be priced. It seems a little bit strong, but as a little bit of luck is involved (size of discard pile), the card may be priced right.

Quarantine: Hm, very interesting card. I like it. It kept me thinking a while. It could work, seems like fun.

Inheritance: This is strictly superior than Smithy at the start. Smithy gives you 3 cards with a rough average of 0.8$ per card if you open Smithy/Silver. So Smithy gives you 2.4$ in average. Inheritance gives you $3.6 in average. So this is at least a $6-card. Then comes the additional effect which makes it a little stronger. Pricing it $7 or changing the effects seems necessary.

Relief: If I understand it right, an 5/2 opening, buying Relief and then a hand with Relief and 4 Coppers could give you $6. But this very unlikely, so an opening buy seems too weak. It could get crazy with a good running engine of Bridges or Highways and massive drawers. I would change the cost to $4 and change the text to only "in your hand" instead of "in play". But this is a subjective opinion.

Morgue: Wow. +4 cards. I think that each player may trash a card from their hands is not that big penalty, because you can too. I think you either change that to $6 or remove the "(including you)" clause.

Sewers: I think this is too expensive. If your deck is clogged up with curses or coppers it is difficult to get $5. Compare it to the Gardens strategy. If you price it $5, you basically say: "With no big strategy this is worth 3VP, because you could easily buy a Duchy too". I like the card, but I would price it $4.

Miracle: Crazy card. This card need big supporters, like good drawers or cards like Bridge. Do you mean by "Price" the Cornucopia prices? I have no idea if this is a good card, really.
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2011, 01:28:31 pm »
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Morgue: Wow. +4 cards. I think that each player may trash a card from their hands is not that big penalty, because you can too. I think you either change that to $6 or remove the "(including you)" clause.

How'd I miss that?  Yeah, Morgue is also overpowered.  With the trashing option being equally beneficial for you and your opponents, it can be dismissed from price/power considerations.  The extra card up from Smithy should put its cost around $6-$7.

You might look at Envoy and Council Room for examples of how +4 Cards can work at a lower price, but Envoy's penalty -- losing your best card for a whole shuffle -- is kind of a big deal in many if not most decks.  As for Council Room, it's nerfed by a big benefit to your opponents.  The +1 Card for your opponents is actually quite a bit more powerful than one of the +Cards you get, because it's a terminal drawer for you but not for them.
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Octo

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2011, 03:33:31 pm »
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The problem with Relic for me is that, well it almost costs as much as a gold, yet requires the presence of 4 other cards to get there. But you're saying it can be a gold with a drawing card - so it depends on a even better cards now to be worth it? And even then it might just be a silver if that doesn't pay off? Sure, they stack etc., but the point I didn't make about the big mega turns that you envisage where it's worth super dosh is that they will be so rare because, well, your deck has to be full of crap for the Relic's to be worth anything, so if it's full of crap how are you going to draw shit loads of cards? Counting House only works by virtue of scooping out the discard pile. Getting big hands takes some doing, and we try and do that at the best of times, let alone when we have a deck chocked with junk (and curses!). It combos well with Highway as pointed out, but then you're can competently avoid having crap like that (and in fact that's the only way you'll manage to play enough Highways to have an effect), which is not how you envisage the card clearly. Again, would be interesting to see it in play, if only for me to be proved wrong.

As for the -1$ - can I still take a copper with -1$ money? I know it would be silly to play it in that circumstance, but the fact that you can play it means you have to have an answer for that. Just a note about how you cannot have less than 0 money on the card somehow is needed.

Note: just add to what ChaosRed said, it's because the ideas here are actually quite interesting and intriguing that this is getting some real critique, so yeah, salt etc. :)
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rinkworks

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Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2011, 04:11:00 pm »
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Relief is basically a Coppersmith that offers some money for Curses and incurs a penalty all the time.  Many games won't use Curses, so it'll be a weaker Coppersmith (already a weak -- or shall we say situational -- card at $4).  True, if you're inundated with Curses, this card might help save the day, but in that case you might well prefer to have Secret Chamber instead, as that will turn not only Curses into $1 apiece but will also do that for victory cards and dead terminals.

I'm pretty sure that the current version of the card, which I understand to be this:

Quote
-1$, +1 Buy, “When you play this, reveal your hand. +1$ for every card with a cost of 0 you have in your hand or in play.”

...is a fine $2 card -- or would be, if the ability to open double Relief wouldn't be make for too strong a second shuffle.  Beyond that second shuffle, though, it's not that great:  if you truly need the +Buy, it'll sometimes be better than Coppersmith or Secret Chamber, but if you don't, it's basically strictly weaker than both.

As for the combo potential with Highway/Bridge (reducing costs of other cards to 0 in order to make them count as $0-cost cards), that's a sweet little combo but quite negligible as far as pricing goes, since that type of combo will only be available in a small minority of games and possibly difficult to pull off even when it is.

Basically I think it's broken if you can open with two of them but not strong enough to warrant costing $4 or more.  I considered suggesting you change the -$1 to +$1 and see how that plays at a cost of $5, but I think then it is clearly too much superior to Coppersmith to allow a cost increase of only $1.  So maybe with no flat adjustment at all it's fine at $5.  Then it would be Coppersmith-with-a-buy-and-curse-compensation, which feels like it's probably balanced, though even more situational than Coppersmith already is.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 04:14:39 pm by rinkworks »
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