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[markusin]

A while back (before Isotropic Dominion closed down), I was curious as to what Innovation was all about. I read the rules of the base game, and tried out a few solitaire games. I found the rules of the game were pretty straightforward. They weren't any harder to learn than the rules of Dominion. The game seemed like it could be a lot of fun, but I wasn't ready to take in 100+ cards into my brain.

Recently, I decided to finally give it a shot. I reread the rules of the base game, then the rules for Echoes and Figures, then played some more solitaire games while taking a look at a few of the Innovation topics on the forum. Today, I was brave enough to play my first real game of Innovation. The log is here:
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201312/23/game-20131223-123303-ce8966d0.html

I make many embarrassing mistakes. The biggest difficulty was keeping track of what my opponent was capable of doing with just the cards already melded on the board. The game already seemed to have been decided by the time I melded The Pirate Code.

I have everything to learn about this game, but it's still a lot of fun when playing with the fast isotropic interface that can handle all the rules automatically. I imagine playing this IRL can be a pain sometimes.

And so, I embark on the journey of Innovation.

Final note: I find it pretty comical that one of the cards is "Invention". For the most part, the cards can be interpreted as innovations, but a lot of the echoes cards seem more like inventions to me.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Welcome!

Innovation is one of my favorite games -- it can be overwhelming sometimes, but it's worth the brainspace. It's no sin to play without expansions, either -- lots of people prefer base Innovation by itself.

[markusin]

I intend to play with the expansions soon enough. I've tried some solitaire games with them too. But you know, there's this line on the isotropic innovation page: "You are strongly advised not to use the expansion until you're familiar with the base game."

So in my first game, I completely overlooked that Alchemy, after doing its draw thing, has you meld a card from hand and then score a card from your hand. So when my gambit to have my opponent draw a red with Alchemy failed, it backfired big time by allowing my opponent to quickly score up then meld a 4.

So yeah, maybe I should stick with base for awhile.

[TrojH]

Welcome to Innovation!

Here are my steps to becoming a better Innovation player:

Step 1: Avoid making dumb mistakes. For example:

- If you have a move you can make that wins you the game immediately, make that move.
- If you only have one move that prevents your opponent from winning on his next turn, make that move.
- Don't activate a demand-only dogma if your opponents are immune to it.
- Don't do a draw or a meld action if you have a dogma effect that can do more, and your opponents can't share in it. For example, if you have Domestication, and you want to meld your lowest card, use Domestication to do it (unless opponents would share in it). Don't just meld your card, and give up a free draw.

Basically, just be careful, and don't do things that are obviously dumb.

Step 2... actually, I don't know what Step 2 is. I've played over 400 games, and I'm still on Step 1. 

[AJD]

Edge cases!

- Don't activate a demand-only dogma if your opponents are immune to it.

There are probably cases in which your best move is to do nothing—you don't want to share any of your other dogmas, drawing an x would allow your opponent to get an x+1 prematurely, etc.

- Don't do a draw or a meld action if you have a dogma effect that can do more, and your opponents can't share in it. For example, if you have Domestication, and you want to meld your lowest card, use Domestication to do it (unless opponents would share in it). Don't just meld your card, and give up a free draw.

Again, giving up the free draw is probably the better move sometimes—e.g., suppose that if you draw the last 1, your opponent can dogma Sailing, meld a 2, and achieve the 2 on their next turn.

[pingpongsam]

The rules explicitly state that you must commit 2 actions per turn. Doing nothing is not an option.

[Gveoniz]

The rules explicitly state that you must commit 2 actions per turn. Doing nothing is not an option.

That is why he may need to do a (demand) dogma that have no effect.

[markusin]

Step 1: Avoid making dumb mistakes

Surprisingly good advice. I'm making stupid mistakes all the time (despite taking forever to make my moves).

For example, I was eligible to claim the World achievement through Translation really early by total fluke, but then I used the first dogma effect to meld 2 cards from my score pile, which made me no longer eligible to claim the achievement. Gah!

[AHoppy]

These stupid mistakes are why I like playing IRL a little better, because (if you have a nice opponent) you can take back the dumb stuff.  However, it can be hard to remember the special achievements...

[markusin]

These stupid mistakes are why I like playing IRL a little better, because (if you have a nice opponent) you can take back the dumb stuff.  However, it can be hard to remember the special achievements...

I'm curious: How hard is it to play Innovation IRL. I would expect that its already very time consuming to constantly have to count each player's score, let alone count the number of icons on each player's board. Both score and icons are really, really important to the functionality of the game, but they are also seem like they'd be tedious to track without a computer. Then there's the counting of how many cards are left in the draw piles.

So, I'm curious as to what techniques you guys use to keep track of everything when playing Innovation IRL.

[AHoppy]

These stupid mistakes are why I like playing IRL a little better, because (if you have a nice opponent) you can take back the dumb stuff.  However, it can be hard to remember the special achievements...

I'm curious: How hard is it to play Innovation IRL. I would expect that its already very time consuming to constantly have to count each player's score, let alone count the number of icons on each player's board. Both score and icons are really, really important to the functionality of the game, but they are also seem like they'd be tedious to track without a computer. Then there's the counting of how many cards are left in the draw piles.

So, I'm curious as to what techniques you guys use to keep track of everything when playing Innovation IRL.

As far as icons go, it isn't too hard to keep track of them because you can get a pretty good idea just at a glance at the board.  As far as score: You know when they have more than you, and if you really want to know their score, you have to ask them and make them count it   So sure, it may take a little longer to count those things, but it really isn't a huge deal

[pingpongsam]

IRL isn't harder. In fact, since actions resolve manually and in real time as opposed to instantaneous flashes on the screen I would say it is easier. The problem the game often involves illegal plays because the humans lose track of what they are and are not allowed to play. We play where it is each person's responsibility to keep track of their own icon counts and to report them upon request.

[ipofanes]

First of all, it was prudent to start your first game without expansions.

The only obvious mistake I saw on your side at a glance was melding and using Fermenting. The castle symbol on Fermenting is its Achilles heel. Melding and using it netted you 2 cards (as it was obvious your opponent would Engineer it to his score pile) so drawing twice (which is usually bqad) would have been as effective.

You were a bit unlucky on Alchemy, which was maybe worth a shot as the last [4] for your opponent might as well have been Gunpowder which was the achievement (plus you didn't know Colonialism was in the game already). But as you wouldn't have more than one card in hand after drawing anyway, Alchemy would not have let you score, so playing it was maybe iffy, but not really bad.

Agreed that the game was lost by the time you drew Pirate Code.

[markusin]

First of all, it was prudent to start your first game without expansions.

The only obvious mistake I saw on your side at a glance was melding and using Fermenting. The castle symbol on Fermenting is its Achilles heel. Melding and using it netted you 2 cards (as it was obvious your opponent would Engineer it to his score pile) so drawing twice (which is usually bqad) would have been as effective.

You were a bit unlucky on Alchemy, which was maybe worth a shot as the last [4] for your opponent might as well have been Gunpowder which was the achievement (plus you didn't know Colonialism was in the game already). But as you wouldn't have more than one card in hand after drawing anyway, Alchemy would not have let you score, so playing it was maybe iffy, but not really bad.

Agreed that the game was lost by the time you drew Pirate Code.

Thanks for the feedback. At this point, I know what pretty much all the base cards are, so that's good. Now I seek to practice in order to win more games. Eventually, I'll try real matches with the expansions (some of them anyway).

[ksasaki]

welcome markusin, it's always nice to get new players.

a few quick tips i've learned from playing 1000s of games:

base: seems very scoring-centric.  Try to build up a score pile as early as possible and start achieving.

echoes: scoring still important, but pay particular attention to the echoes cards with left splay echoes (means the echo is on the right hand side of the card, as to be visible by a left splay).  Domestication / chopsticks tucked and wheel / umbrella tucked are two of my personal favorites.  Also, there are a LOT of left splay blue echoes cards.  They allow you to get a LOT of bang out of your actions.  Code of laws / flute are the cards you are looking for.  You heard it here first!

figures: good for balancing out if the other person starts claiming standard achievements like crazy.  Also, try to share if it doesn't give your opponent too much of an advantage

cities: endorse ALL THE TIME.  there's not much else to it.

I'd be happy to play a game with you and teach you some of my tricks.  I find that is the best way of teaching new players.

[markusin]

Hi Ksasaki,

Thanks for the welcome! At this point I'm more or less familiar with the Base Set, but I'm no pro at it by any means.

I'd be happy to try a few games with echoes against you though. So far, my experience with echoes has been a few solitaire games and whatever I read here on the forum.

Echoes and Figures both look very interesting, but I haven't looked at NPLH yet. People seem to be really annoyed with the direction of the beta right now.

I'd like to ask something: it seems that certain cards like Industrialization, Watermill, and Almanac are pretty broken with the new draw rules for Echoes proposed in Figures. Is there a reason Isotropic doesn't offer the option to play with either the old or the new draw rules for Echoes games? The new draw rules simplify IRL setup, but online play doesn't really lose time on setup.

[ipofanes]

Is there a reason Isotropic doesn't offer the option to play with either the old or the new draw rules for Echoes games? The new draw rules simplify IRL setup, but online play doesn't really lose time on setup.

A good question.

One reason may be that dougz would have to resort to his old interface which displayed the card stacks with slightly "splayed" backs to see how many were left (and with the old rules would reveal the sequence of base and echoes cards). This took too much real estate with all the expansions.

One other reason may be the close connection between programmer and designer, and that the designer may dislike the implementation of house rules.

[markusin]

Is there a reason Isotropic doesn't offer the option to play with either the old or the new draw rules for Echoes games? The new draw rules simplify IRL setup, but online play doesn't really lose time on setup.

A good question.

One reason may be that dougz would have to resort to his old interface which displayed the card stacks with slightly "splayed" backs to see how many were left (and with the old rules would reveal the sequence of base and echoes cards). This took too much real estate with all the expansions.

One other reason may be the close connection between programmer and designer, and that the designer may dislike the implementation of house rules.

Oh yeah, I vaguely remember the splayed age card interface. I just figured dougz wanted to implement the rules that IRL players are expecting, which would be the most recent rules.

I tried a couple of games with echoes for kicks. I found it incredibly fun, but challenging at the same time. You always have every echoes card in the game, and the piles just don't deplete the way I'm used to in the base game. My favourite thing about echeos is the forecasting. Among other things, it lets you get an icon boost out of nowhere.

[ipofanes]

and the piles just don't deplete the way I'm used to in the base game.

Having never tried this, I would expect that this rule would give teching up a boost, as it takes longer to proceed by depleting the whole pile. Given that Slide Rule and Measurement are among the pet peeves when it comes to OP cards with Echoes, I don't know if that's a good idea. Then again, I'd like to try it out, and without the hassle of shuffling all the piles echo piles.

[markusin]

I was looking to play a game with Echoes today, but ended up playing a game with both Echoes and Figures. It was rather crazy, especially when the strong Echoes cards are able to do their thing. And then with figures returning other figures, It's really hard to know what's going to happen in advance.

I actually managed to win with a combination of early scoring and karma-activated decrees. Decrees feel like an awesome way to make use of Figures that just aren't what you need right now, especially when you only need 2 of them.

Having my opponent draw figures after I achieve or after sharing a dogma made me scared to do anything. I already don't like wasting time to claim a standard achievement (perhaps one of my weaknesses). It feel like a really good way to get ahead and stay there is to use hand wrecking demand dogmas or return-your-hand dogmas (in the game I played, I shared Pressure Cooker's dogma for great effect) in order to help get rid of opposing figures.

All in all though, Figures seemed to make the game especially dynamic, while not totally making the other cards obsolete due to the fading rule and other barriers.

Edit: but I think Figures is still too overwhelming for me at the moment.

[ksasaki]

I used to be scared of giving achievements away too.  But achievements last forever, and it's just one closer to a victory.  If I can achieve and only give my opponent age 1 or 2 figures, I am generally OK.  They really start to get wild around age 3 IMO.

There is a way you can actually do achieving offensively.  Say your opponent sped ahead in the tech race ~4-5 ages by math.  Chances are their hand is tiny.  If you have archery / construction you can achieve, forcing them to draw a figure, then immediately archery / construct their figure away!  Neat huh.

Getting a lot of those decrees is awesome, I am especially worried about an early expansion paired with sunglasses, or an early tigernmas war wiping out my board.  Other notable cool stuff is rhazes and ANY drawing mechanism card (novel, paper, lever).  Alhazen with a bunch of castles in red can zoom you up in ages really quickly as well.

[markusin]

Yeah, those stealing figures from the hand tricks are things I would look for in a game. It's surely easier to get multiple figures in hand than it is to have multiple echoes cards in hand due to the echoes draw rule.

Yeah the early figures seem more situational, and potentially detrimental as well.

[ksasaki]

Be careful about sargon and hatshepsut, they can be good situationally but they can also screw you up, esp sargon!

However, sargon tucked left can give you a "inspire" chain, similar to the echo chain you can achieve with a ruler / chopsticks.

One of my favorite theoretical "inspire chains" is shennong + sneferu + whatever yellow figure with an inspire on top. 

Btw http://innovation.isotropic.org/cardz if you were ever curious!

[markusin]

Btw http://innovation.isotropic.org/cardz if you were ever curious!

How was I ever supposed to find that? I've been using this for base and echoes references and this for figures.

Thanks so much for the link!

[ksasaki]

Someone actually told me after I played a game, I had no idea before and honestly after you play enough you will have them committed to memory.  But every once in awhile I wonder how many cards can let my watermill or almanac get rolling, and actually 60% of all echoes cards have bonuses (ages 2-10 have 4 bonus cards = to the current age, and 2 bonus cards 1 age higher, in age 1, you have puppet the only 3, 2 2 bonuses, and 6 1 bonuses, again following the 2/3 are from the same age, and 1/3 from 1 or 2 ages higher)

Let me know if you have any other Qs, I'm happy to help.