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Author Topic: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard  (Read 4440 times)

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jaybeez

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Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« on: December 20, 2013, 12:53:57 am »
+8

Also good shuffle luck helps: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131219/log.50627ce1a2e66a82a6ae24ef.1387517321961.txt

I went Courtyard when he bought Rebuild T1 so I knew he wasn't going to buy a Margrave.  My plan was to get a Hoard ASAP then buy a Harem or two with my first Hoard hand/s, and just go with two Courtyards and rush Provinces, possibly stopping for a second Hoard if I hit $6 without the first, since I knew I would start buying Duchies earlier than normal.  I figured if I could get to 4 Provinces I would be able to win on Duchies/Harems/Estates since I wasn't going to trash anything.

As you can see, it went better than I had hoped.  Province #4 on T11.  After buying Duchy T10.  Not bad.

This game was a delight: I just didn't feel like playing a Rebuild mirror, and it's like the Dominion gods rewarded my choice, huzzah!
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Schneau

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 07:10:27 am »
+7

Nice job. Still, its depressing to me that we're excited about playing basically Courtyard-BM just so we don't have to play Rebuild.
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Polk5440

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 08:57:41 am »
+2

I think Courtyard-Harem-Hoard-money is pretty exciting, actually. It uses more kingdom cards than some engines. Wait, there's Venture, too! That is a killer money strategy.
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Robz888

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 01:38:06 pm »
+2

Very nice game. A good demonstration of the idea that strong BM decks are very competitive against Rebuild, much more so than simply decent engines. Something like Courtyard/Hoard/BM is reaching for VP much faster than a competing engine, which is exactly what you want against Rebuild.
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Holger

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 02:18:06 pm »
+2

Very nice game. A good demonstration of the idea that strong BM decks are very competitive against Rebuild, much more so than simply decent engines. Something like Courtyard/Hoard/BM is reaching for VP much faster than a competing engine, which is exactly what you want against Rebuild.

I don't want to spoil jaybeez' success, but a single game is not a proof of a superior strategy, the win can easily be due to shuffle luck. Simulating a few hundred games on Dominiate shows that Rebuild beats Courtyard/1Hoard/BM decisively (71:29), and seems to narrowly beat Courtyard/1Hoard/Harem/BM (51:49) as well. AFAIK, the only BM strategy (excluding Witch/YW) known to beat Rebuild in simulations is Wharf/Bank, and even that by a very small margin (53:47).
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Robz888

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 02:33:01 pm »
+2

Very nice game. A good demonstration of the idea that strong BM decks are very competitive against Rebuild, much more so than simply decent engines. Something like Courtyard/Hoard/BM is reaching for VP much faster than a competing engine, which is exactly what you want against Rebuild.

I don't want to spoil jaybeez' success, but a single game is not a proof of a superior strategy, the win can easily be due to shuffle luck. Simulating a few hundred games on Dominiate shows that Rebuild beats Courtyard/1Hoard/BM decisively (71:29), and seems to narrowly beat Courtyard/1Hoard/Harem/BM (51:49) as well. AFAIK, the only BM strategy (excluding Witch/YW) known to beat Rebuild in simulations is Wharf/Bank, and even that by a very small margin (53:47).

Hmm, well I have very little experience with the simulators, but how well do they play Courtyard in conjunction with Hoard? Put back rules a little tough, maybe? Because that result does surprise me a bit...
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jaybeez

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 02:34:32 pm »
+2

Nice job. Still, its depressing to me that we're excited about playing basically Courtyard-BM just so we don't have to play Rebuild.
I get what you mean, but to me there's something fun and enjoyable about using a simple, straightforward strategy like Courtyard-BM to beat something like a Rebuild rush (I have also used strong BM variants to beat slow-building engines).  I guess I just enjoy that aspect of Dominion's metagame.

Edit--re: Holger's simulation data, I'm wondering the same thing that Robz888 is, deciding what to put back with Courtyard can require some thought, depending on where you are in your shuffle, what you know is still in your deck, etc.  I can't imagine the simulator can account for that.  Also, IMO if you're going Courtyard-Hoard (Harem or no) whether you get one Hoard or two depends partly on how your draws go in the early- to mid-game.  So only buying one Hoard irrespective of anything else does not seem like optimal play for that strat.  I could be wrong though.

Edit #2: to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Courtyard-Hoard or Courtyard-Hoard-Harem are necessarily superior strategies to Rebuild.  It's just that I decided to try it, thought it had a good chance of working out, and it did, and I was happy about that, so I decided to post the results :)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 02:44:36 pm by jaybeez »
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Polk5440

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 02:53:09 pm »
+1

Very nice game. A good demonstration of the idea that strong BM decks are very competitive against Rebuild, much more so than simply decent engines. Something like Courtyard/Hoard/BM is reaching for VP much faster than a competing engine, which is exactly what you want against Rebuild.

I don't want to spoil jaybeez' success, but a single game is not a proof of a superior strategy, the win can easily be due to shuffle luck. Simulating a few hundred games on Dominiate shows that Rebuild beats Courtyard/1Hoard/BM decisively (71:29), and seems to narrowly beat Courtyard/1Hoard/Harem/BM (51:49) as well. AFAIK, the only BM strategy (excluding Witch/YW) known to beat Rebuild in simulations is Wharf/Bank, and even that by a very small margin (53:47).

Are you adjusting the Duchy buy rules?

jaybeez bought Duchies right away. I would be interested in if it's worth passing up the first Duchy for a Venture (if you don't have Hoard in hand).
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Holger

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 03:27:22 pm »
+2

Very nice game. A good demonstration of the idea that strong BM decks are very competitive against Rebuild, much more so than simply decent engines. Something like Courtyard/Hoard/BM is reaching for VP much faster than a competing engine, which is exactly what you want against Rebuild.

I don't want to spoil jaybeez' success, but a single game is not a proof of a superior strategy, the win can easily be due to shuffle luck. Simulating a few hundred games on Dominiate shows that Rebuild beats Courtyard/1Hoard/BM decisively (71:29), and seems to narrowly beat Courtyard/1Hoard/Harem/BM (51:49) as well. AFAIK, the only BM strategy (excluding Witch/YW) known to beat Rebuild in simulations is Wharf/Bank, and even that by a very small margin (53:47).

Hmm, well I have very little experience with the simulators, but how well do they play Courtyard in conjunction with Hoard? Put back rules a little tough, maybe? Because that result does surprise me a bit...

Unfortunately I don't know, I just used the implemented put-back rules.


Edit--re: Holger's simulation data, I'm wondering the same thing that Robz888 is, deciding what to put back with Courtyard can require some thought, depending on where you are in your shuffle, what you know is still in your deck, etc.  I can't imagine the simulator can account for that.  Also, IMO if you're going Courtyard-Hoard (Harem or no) whether you get one Hoard or two depends partly on how your draws go in the early- to mid-game.  So only buying one Hoard irrespective of anything else does not seem like optimal play for that strat.  I could be wrong though.

Edit #2: to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Courtyard-Hoard or Courtyard-Hoard-Harem are necessarily superior strategies to Rebuild.  It's just that I decided to try it, thought it had a good chance of working out, and it did, and I was happy about that, so I decided to post the results :)

Yes, I didn't account for the option to buy a second Hoard; to simulate it, you'd need a clear rule when to buy a second one, and I was too lazy to find one myself  ;)


Are you adjusting the Duchy buy rules?

jaybeez bought Duchies right away. I would be interested in if it's worth passing up the first Duchy for a Venture (if you don't have Hoard in hand).

No, I didn't. But trying it now, it turns out that buying Duchies from the start leaves the win rates almost unchanged.
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Polk5440

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 03:43:56 pm »
0

Holger, can you post the Dominate code? I would be interested in looking at what you are running. Thanks!

(Edit: Sorry about the name!)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:25:34 pm by Polk5440 »
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Holger

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 03:54:23 pm »
+2

Holger, can you post the Dominate code? I would be interested in looking at what you are running. Thanks!
(FTFY)

Here it is; I've just added the Hoard and Harem lines to the existing OBM Courtyard code, and now made the "second" Duchy gain priority unconditional. (Remove the Harem line to get "my" CY-Hoard BM.)
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'OBM Courtyard'
  author: 'HiveMindEmulator'
  requires: ['Courtyard', 'Hoard', 'Harem']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province" if my.countInDeck("Gold") > 0
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Hoard" if  my.countInDeck("Hoard") == 0
    "Harem"
    "Gold"
    "Duchy" #if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Silver" if my.countInDeck("Silver") == 0
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") == 0
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") < my.countCardTypeInDeck("treasure") / 8
    "Silver"
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") <= 1
  ]
}
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DG

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 03:55:48 pm »
+1

Quote
Simulating a few hundred games on Dominiate shows that Rebuild beats Courtyard/1Hoard/BM decisively (71:29), and seems to narrowly beat Courtyard/1Hoard/Harem/BM (51:49) as well.

Hoard isn't actually an easy card to simulate since it can have a short opportunity window for when it is an optimum buy (compared to gold, duchy) and there are changes to purchasing rules with hoard in play too. Harems also complicate this and the courtyard/venture play rules will be improved on by a good human player.
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Robz888

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2013, 03:57:26 pm »
0

Hm. Someone might try a human v. human series, where one player plays straight Rebuild and the other can only buy supply Treasure, Courtyard, Harem, Hoard and Venture?
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Polk5440

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2013, 04:42:16 pm »
+5

Robz, no need, no need.

Holger's bot left the Gold condition in there which was slowing it down. All sims below run 1000 games.

Removing the Gold conditions (so Province is bought if there is one Hoard in your deck (instead of one Gold) and no Gold buys at all) has Rebuild loosing to Courtyard 46.9%-53.1% (this is with the early Duchy buys -- which now make a difference).

Adding one Venture first helps a lot. Rebuild now loses 42.7%-57.3%.

Adding 2 Ventures before buying Duchies helps a little more. Rebuild loses 40.5%-59.5%.

Here's the code:

Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'beat-rebuild'
  author: 'Polk5440'
  requires: ['Courtyard', 'Hoard', 'Harem','Venture']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province" if my.countInDeck("Hoard") > 0
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Hoard" if  my.countInDeck("Hoard") == 0
    "Harem"
    "Venture" if my.countInDeck("Venture")<=1
    "Duchy" #if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Silver" if my.countInDeck("Silver") == 0
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") == 0
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") < my.countCardTypeInDeck("treasure") / 8
    "Silver"
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") <= 1
  ]
}
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:50:07 pm by Polk5440 »
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Polk5440

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2013, 04:48:18 pm »
0

I think Courtyard-Hoard-Harem-Venture is the right way to go, though Sage and Oasis could help Rebuilder a little, as well, and that's not in the basic Rebuild bot. Someone may want to mess around with that, too.
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Holger

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Re: Another thing can beat Rebuild: Courtyard-Hoard
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2013, 05:07:10 pm »
0

Robz, no need, no need.

Holger's bot left the Gold condition in there which was slowing it down. All sims below run 1000 games.

Removing the Gold conditions (so Province is bought if there is one Hoard in your deck (instead of one Gold) and no Gold buys at all) has Rebuild loosing to Courtyard 46.9%-53.1% (this is with the early Duchy buys -- which now make a difference).

Right, that was a stupid mistake. But 47:53 is still quite close - and actually I'm getting 50:50 after 10,000 games when fixing this in my code...

Adding one Venture first helps a lot. Rebuild now loses 42.7%-57.3%.

Adding 2 Ventures before buying Duchies helps a little more. Rebuild loses 40.5%-59.5%.

Okay, so at least we've found a four-card-BM "combo" that beats Rebuild.
But I suspect that Rebuild-Courtyard could still beat this...

Edit: Yes, Rebuild-Courtyard wins 51-49 against it. Maybe it doesn't win against a more optimized Courtyard rule, but I wouldn't bet on it...
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 01:17:29 pm by Holger »
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