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[Silverback]

Let's assume, that my opponent plays a Minion and makes me discard a Tunnel, which I reveal to gain a Gold.
In my newly drawn 4 cards I have a Watchtower and a Trader.

Here are the questions:

Can I reveal the Trader to gain a Silver instead?
Can I reveal the Watchtower to trash the Silver?

I know it makes no sense to do this. I just want to make sure that I understand the timing.

[blackb]

I would say discarding and drawing happens at the same time. Therfore you can reveal your new reactions.

[Thisisnotasmile]

I would say discarding and drawing do NOT happen at the same time. If you have less than four cards in your draw deck, the hand you are discarding would be included in the shuffle before you draw a new hand. Therefore, the discarding happens strictly before the drawing, and you cannot reveal reactions from your 'new' hand in response to would-gaining and/or gaining cards as a result of discarding Tunnel to Minion. However, I believe you would be able to discard Tunnel first and then reveal Trader and/or Watchtower from your 'old' hand, before they have been discarded.

This is just how I would rule the situation based on my understanding of the game. I make no guarantees about its correctness. I'm interested to see how Donald rules this officially.

[HP7289]

However, I believe you would be able to discard Tunnel first and then reveal Trader and/or Watchtower from your 'old' hand, before they have been discarded.

I second this since discarding of Tunnel and Trader/WT happens at the same time, so you can choose what to discard first.

[dondon151]

Even if Minion is not explicit about the order of actions (i.e., it doesn't say discard your hand, then draw 4 cards), the order is implicit. Imagine if the card had you "draw 4 cards, and discard your hand" instead of "discard your hand, and draw 4 cards." That would be entirely different!

[Kirian]

Pretty certain TINAS has it correct, and dondon, the order actually is explicit (I had to check it):  discard, then draw.  So, if you currently have:

Watchtower, Tunnel, Copper, Copper, Silver

and your opponent plays a Minion, the order is:

Discard the Tunnel
Reveal the Tunnel (as it is discarded) and gain a Gold
Reveal the Watchtower and place the Gold on your deck
Discard the Watchtower and coins
Draw Gold and 3 more cards.

Donald's indicated that things that are called for at the same time "happen" at the same time.  The reveal of the Tunnel must happen as it is discarded, which means it happens at the same time.  The gain of the Gold happens at the same time, as does the reveal of the Watchtower.  This all happens while cards are being discarded.

It's implicit but not explicit that, much like playing coins during the Buy phase or discarding played actions during the cleanup phase, discarding cards has an order to it.  In other words, you could discard the Watchtower first, and you would lose the ability to reveal it.  Since this sort of situation applies, I think, only to Tunnel, you'll always want to discard Tunnel first, much like you always want to play Contraband first during the Buy phase, and clean up Alchemist before Herbalist during the cleanup phase (if a Potion is available to clean up).

[HiveMindEmulator]

I agree with Kirian. To do any shenanigans, the watchtower/trader have to be in your hand at the time you reveal the tunnel, not in the new hand you draw after. That would be a delayed reaction!

[dondon151]

Pretty certain TINAS has it correct, and dondon, the order actually is explicit (I had to check it):  discard, then draw.

Sorry, I meant that the wording on the card does not say discard, then draw; it says discard, and draw. But it does actually mean to discard, then draw.

[glasser]

On Isotropic, if an opponent makes you Minionly discard a hand with both Tunnel and Watchtower, you can reveal the watchtower and top-deck the gold:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/19/game-20111119-154456-81297dbb.html

But if you get Militiad and decide to discard both, you don't get to:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/19/game-20111119-154723-5d34cc42.html

Note that there was no "which card to discard first?" prompt like there is with card cleanup.

(Also, it's possible that this is dependent on some less deterministic internal sorting or something.)

[Jimmmmm]

On Isotropic, if an opponent makes you Minionly discard a hand with both Tunnel and Watchtower, you can reveal the watchtower and top-deck the gold:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/19/game-20111119-154456-81297dbb.html

But if you get Militiad and decide to discard both, you don't get to:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/19/game-20111119-154723-5d34cc42.html

Note that there was no "which card to discard first?" prompt like there is with card cleanup.

(Also, it's possible that this is dependent on some less deterministic internal sorting or something.)

So Minion discards your hand one card at a time, and Militia discard cards simultaneously? This seems inconsistent.

Also, looking at your second log, the only time a Militia was played when the victim had both Tunnel and Watchtower in hand a Gold was gained. Assuming the other card discarded was the Watchtower, this would seem to contradict your second conclusion.

[glasser]

, looking at your second log, the only time a Militia was played when the victim had both Tunnel and Watchtower in hand a Gold was gained. Assuming the other card discarded was the Watchtower, this would seem to contradict your second conclusion.

It does contradict it: I was not given a prompt asking me if I wanted to reveal the Watchtower and top-deck the Gold, as I was for the Minion.

[Jimmmmm]

Oh duh. Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking.

[Donald X.]

Let's assume, that my opponent plays a Minion and makes me discard a Tunnel, which I reveal to gain a Gold.
In my newly drawn 4 cards I have a Watchtower and a Trader.

Here are the questions:

Can I reveal the Trader to gain a Silver instead?
Can I reveal the Watchtower to trash the Silver?

You can't use the Watchtower or Trader there. You finish resolving Tunnel before you draw your new hand, so for any reactions in your new hand, it's too late.

When you discard cards from your hand, you pick the order to discard them, which matters (albeit not very much) because the top card of your discard pile is revealed. However you discard them all, then check for reactions. So if you had to discard a reaction, you no longer have it in hand to trigger off of the discard. This only applies if multiple cards are discarded to the same uh effect. You discard them all at once. This is in line with the main rulebook's ruling that you don't have to show all of the cards to the other players when you discard to Cellar - just the one that ends up on top.

However if you play Hamlet and discard Tunnel for +1 Action, that would resolve before you decided whether or not to discard a card for +1 Buy.

[Kirian]

So, just to be clear, Donald, the order (as opposed to what I posted earlier) starting from WT, Tunnel, SCC, is:

Opponent plays Minion
Discard all cards from hand
Reveal Tunnel(s) during this discard
Gain Gold(s)
Watchtower is already in the discard pile, so no reaction
Draw 4 cards

Is that right?  It seems to create an odd state in which a group of cards is technically between the hand and the discard pile for a moment; at the time the Gold is gained, the Tunnel is not in the discard pile yet, but the Watchtower is no longer in the hand.

[Dominionaer]

As far as I understand it, the Tunnel does get revealed in the moment it hit the discard pile. There is no "between the hand and the discard pile for a moment" in the rules or game mechanic. Of course in RL one has to move the cards, so that is true then, but has no consequences or possibilities other then to use the opportunity and spare time and show the Tunnel then.

[tlloyd]

This brings up another question: if someone plays Followers and I have a watchtower in hand, can I use it to trash the curse I gain and then discard the watchtower? Or does the discarding happen first? The text again says "and," but does mention gaining a curse before it mentions discarding. Same question for Trader, with I assume the same answer.

[tlloyd]

Donald, I don't see how you can reconcile this

When you discard cards from your hand, you pick the order to discard them

with this

You discard them all at once

Can you logically discard them all at the same time but in a particular order?

[Jimmmmm]

I think he means you choose which order to stack them in, and then discard the whole lot.

[Dominionaer]

if someone plays Followers and I have a watchtower in hand, can I use it to trash the curse I gain and then discard the watchtower? ... Same question for Trader, with I assume the same answer.

Yes, yes and yes

[Silverback]

Let's assume, that my opponent plays a Minion and makes me discard a Tunnel, which I reveal to gain a Gold.
In my newly drawn 4 cards I have a Watchtower and a Trader.

Here are the questions:

Can I reveal the Trader to gain a Silver instead?
Can I reveal the Watchtower to trash the Silver?

You can't use the Watchtower or Trader there. You finish resolving Tunnel before you draw your new hand, so for any reactions in your new hand, it's too late.

When you discard cards from your hand, you pick the order to discard them, which matters (albeit not very much) because the top card of your discard pile is revealed. However you discard them all, then check for reactions. So if you had to discard a reaction, you no longer have it in hand to trigger off of the discard. This only applies if multiple cards are discarded to the same uh effect. You discard them all at once. This is in line with the main rulebook's ruling that you don't have to show all of the cards to the other players when you discard to Cellar - just the one that ends up on top.

However if you play Hamlet and discard Tunnel for +1 Action, that would resolve before you decided whether or not to discard a card for +1 Buy.

I guess this means, that I can't react to the "Gain a Gold" Part, as I have no cards in hand, when it happens. Is that correct?

[Dominionaer]

Yes

[Lhurgoyf]

I still don't quite get the difference between discarding for Minion and discarding for Militia:
In both cases you should be able to discard one at a time and thus
1. discard tunnel,
2. reveal it (gain gold),
3. reveal WT (topdeck gold),
4. discard WT
(5. discard rest in case of Minion)

Is this the way the rules say and is this the way it is implemented in isotropic?

[Jimmmmm]

I still don't quite get the difference between discarding for Minion and discarding for Militia:
In both cases you should be able to discard one at a time and thus
1. discard tunnel,
2. reveal it (gain gold),
3. reveal WT (topdeck gold),
4. discard WT
(5. discard rest in case of Minion)

Is this the way the rules say and is this the way it is implemented in isotropic?

However you discard them all, then check for reactions.

Militia: You have a 3-card hand when checking for a Watchtower. If one is WT, you may put the Gold on top.
Minion: You have a 0-card hand when checking for a Watchtower. Good luck!

This is how it works according to Donald, but apparently Iso is different.

[Dominionaer]

This is how it works according to Donald, but apparently Iso is different.

Don't think so. With Militia Iso lets you choose which cards to discard and then they get discarded in 1 rush. And if one keeps WT on hand, but discarded a Tunnel, one get first asked, wether the Tunnel should be revealed and if so get asked wether the Watchtower should be revealed ...

With Minion all cards get discarded in 1 rush. Although if there is a Tunnel discarded and revealed, the WT is also discarded. And so I expierenced it also on Iso.

[Donald X.]

@Kirian: Tunnel's trigger resolves directly after it's discarded. It's in your discard pile then.

@tlloyd: Followers first gives out Curse, then causes discarding, since they are listed in that order. So you can use a Watchtower to trash the Curse, then discard the Watchtower (I recommend keeping it though, since it will draw you up to six).

@tlloyd: We have to pick an order to discard cards - you end up with a particular card on top of your discard pile, if nothing else. However the main set rulebook is clear that you don't get to see all of the cards they discarded to Cellar - which saves us a little time if someone would otherwise stare at the them. So you don't just discard one, discard one, discard one. You pick the cards to discard, you discard them all in some order as a lump. Then Tunnel can trigger and you reveal the Tunnels. Tunnel explicitly makes you reveal it because it might be hidden in cases like these, and hey we have to know you really have a Tunnel there.

@Lhurgoyf: No, in both cases you should discard Watchtower and Tunnel together, then be unable to use Watchtower. I don't know how isotropic handles it but Militia and Minion should not be different there (although of course you can keep Watchtower in hand for Militia since you get to keep 3 cards, but can't keep it for Minion since you discard your whole hand).