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Author Topic: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions  (Read 17069 times)

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glasser

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2011, 03:00:45 am »
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OK, so sounds like Isotropic has a minor bug with Minion in that it does let you use a discarded Watchtower.

Of course, the good thing about this kind of bug is that if you care about being 100% in accordance with the rules, you can just abstain from revealing the watchtower in this case :)
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Dominionaer

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2011, 04:27:52 am »
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Must correct my former post. Did a solo game with Minion, Tunnel, Watchtower and reproduced the bug:
1) played minion - choosed discard (reshuffled in turn before, 12 cards in deck)
2) got asked, wether to reveal Tunnel - choosed yes
3) got asked, wether to reveal Watchtower - put gold on deck
4) had gold (none gained before) on new hand
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2011, 06:40:16 am »
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Of course, the good thing about this kind of bug is that if you care about being 100% in accordance with the rules, you can just abstain from revealing the watchtower in this case :)

On the other hand, you can't make your opponent do the same.
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Kirian

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2011, 01:47:21 pm »
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@Kirian: Tunnel's trigger resolves directly after it's discarded. It's in your discard pile then.

OK, that makes sense then.

And yep, minor bug with Minion... anyone tried it with Tactician?  I think it's the only other card that says "discard your hand," so I bet it uses the same lines of code.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2011, 02:37:36 pm »
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I tried Tactician and it does the same thing.

tlloyd

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2011, 02:34:59 pm »
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You pick the cards to discard, you discard them all in some order as a lump.

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the point, but I'm not sure you can logically do what you're saying here. Do you discard them in some order, or as a lump?

Let me approach the issue from another direction. In this thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=763.0) the question was raised whether when you play Horse Traders with only one other card in hand you should have to discard that card. Horse Traders instructs you to discard two cards. Based on the strictest interpretation of the "follow as many of the instructions on the card as you can" rule, one could argue that in this situation you would not discard the card: the instruction said to discard two cards, which you cannot do, so you ignore the instruction. But of course the more plausible interpretation (which also happens to be the correct one), is to read "discard two cards" as two instructions: "discard one card. discard another card." You would then discard your one card because you are following the first instruction even though you cannot follow the second.

Having established this, it seems that the same logic would apply to other discard instructions. Militia tells you to discard one card at a time until you only have three cards. Minion might be different, since it says to discard your hand, but you still must logically do so in some order (and you simply cannot do multiple things in a particular order and all at the same time--you just can't). Perhaps the best card to test this would be Torturer. Say I've already discarded down to two cards, tunnel and watchtower, when another Torturer is played. Following the logic of Horse Traders, I would read the Torturer instruction as "discard one card. discard another card." It seems pretty clear then that I could discard the tunnel, reveal watchtower from my hand, and then discard watchtower. I know that's not the rule as you have declared it, but then I think you've got to explain why the same phrase "discard two cards" is interpreted differently on Torturer and Horse Traders.

One final point: Tunnel reacts "when you discard," not "after you have discarded." So I don't understand why you keep saying that you first discard everything and only then check for reactions. If Tunnel has been discarded, technically the time has already passed in which you can reveal Tunnel.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 02:37:06 pm by tlloyd »
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AJD

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2011, 04:05:04 pm »
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You pick the cards to discard, you discard them all in some order as a lump.

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the point, but I'm not sure you can logically do what you're saying here. Do you discard them in some order, or as a lump?

I don't quite see what the conflict is here. You can put the cards in some order, and then discard them all simultaneously.

One final point: Tunnel reacts "when you discard," not "after you have discarded." So I don't understand why you keep saying that you first discard everything and only then check for reactions. If Tunnel has been discarded, technically the time has already passed in which you can reveal Tunnel.

This is also a false distinction; it's the same as saying that if Militia has been put into play, the time has already passed in which you can reveal Moat. "When" on Dominion cards always means 'immediately after'.
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Donald X.

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2011, 04:12:11 pm »
+1

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the point, but I'm not sure you can logically do what you're saying here. Do you discard them in some order, or as a lump?
You do discard them in some order in a lump. The lump has an order.

Based on the strictest interpretation of the "follow as many of the instructions on the card as you can" rule, one could argue that in this situation you would not discard the card: the instruction said to discard two cards, which you cannot do, so you ignore the instruction.
I see, and have seen, how that could be read that way. But this does not confuse anyone ever, and the rulebooks repeat it over and over; "do as much as you can" when applied to "discard 2 cards" specifically means "if you only have one, discard it."

I know that's not the rule as you have declared it, but then I think you've got to explain why the same phrase "discard two cards" is interpreted differently on Torturer and Horse Traders.
They are not interpreted differently!

One final point: Tunnel reacts "when you discard," not "after you have discarded." So I don't understand why you keep saying that you first discard everything and only then check for reactions. If Tunnel has been discarded, technically the time has already passed in which you can reveal Tunnel.
This is the way triggered effects work in almost all games. "When X happens, do Y" means "directly *after* X happens, do Y."
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Minion, Tunnel and Reactions
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2011, 07:51:30 am »
+1

@tlloyd, I see what you're saying and it took me a while to get it straight in my head. I think it might help if you thought of it this way: when you try to do something and can't, the next step is not to skip it entirely, it is to do as much of it as you can.  So yes, when you play a Horse Traders with only one card, you try to discard two and fail. But then you do as much as you can, which in this case means discard as many cards as you can up to two. It's still a lump, but your instruction of "discard two cards" has become "do as much as you can".

Also, the word order in this case is based on position rather than time.
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