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[popsofctown]

I know I could find a Hearthstone forum and put my musings there, but Dominion players chew puzzles up and spit them out.  I think there's enough of you guys playing Hearthstone to answer one or two of these.  I'm interested in the best answers.

1. What's the earliest kill moment for each of the 9 classes, assuming the opponent doesn't do anything at all. (Earliest kill moment means earliest turn of the game, a Player 1 turn 4 kill is better than a Player 2 turn 4 kill)
2. Same question for priest, except assuming the opponent's deck contains nothing but Core Hounds and similarly useless cards. (using the priests own cards to kill, essentially).
3. Which classes can kill on the second turn of the game against an opponent who starts with Innervate Innervate Coldlight Oracle Millhouse Manastorm? (about as good helpmate as you can get.)


I will do a couple class kills.
With Paladin I think the earliest kill moment is Player 1's 3rd turn
To achieve this Turn 1 Young Dragonhawk, Turn 2 Double Hand of Might, fourteen damage.  Turn 3, Two Abusive Sergeants and a Light's Justice, 23 damage.

[Grujah]

1.
 Rogue - 3rd turn, 1st player. Dragonhawk. Preparation -> Cold Blood -> Cold Blood, attack for 18. Attack for 18.


3.
Mage - 2nd player, 1st turn. 2x Pyroblast, 2x Fireball
Paladin - 2nd player, 1st turn. 2x "That card that reveals the top card and deals that much damage". Reveal two molten giants.
or Pig with charge, 2x+4/+4,2x +3/+0, Divine Favor, 2x Double the attack.
Warrior 2nd player, 1st turn. Coin -> Mana Addict. Inner flame, Rampage, Rampage, 2x All your cantrips (Shield Block?, Command Should, Battle Rage), Charge.

Gotta run now, will revisit in a hour or so.

[popsofctown]

Preparation's discount doesn't spread over two spells

[popsofctown]

My math has your Warrior solution falling short. 20 damage from spellcasts + 8 from spell effects + 1 Normal mana addict attack damage.
There is a Coldlight Seer as posed in the problem, so all you have to do is throw a Mortal Strike on there.
You could actually get even more insane amounts of damage if you Upgrade and attack Millhouse, doubling Battle Rage's draw.. but 30 is enough.

[Grujah]

Preparation's discount doesn't spread over two spells

Doesn't matter. Solution is over 3 turns. You can cast any 0 spell cost and 2 cold bloods on turn 2, preparation was just the one that I came to my mind first.

@Warrior - just throw another Inner Rage in in that case.

[Grujah]

1 and 2.
Priest 1st player 4th turn. Turn 1 Shieldbearer. Turn 2 2x PW: Shield. Turn 3: Double the Health + Inner Flame = 16/16 creature. Attack. Attack again on 4th turn.

[popsofctown]

The answer to two is definitely not a subset of the answer to one.
Here is my best answer to 1 for Priest.

Player 2's third turn.

Turn 1, Draw Wisp, Mind Vision, Thoughsteal, Mind Blast. Play Mind Vision hitting Preparation.  Don't use coin.
Turn 2, Draw the other Thoughtsteal. Prepare a Thoughsteal, hitting two Perparations.  Prepare another Thoughsteal, hitting Edwin Van Cleef and Shadowstep.  Prepare a Mind blast for 5 damage.  Play a Wisp.  Shadowstep the Wisp.  Play a Wisp. Play coin.  Play Edwin Van Cleef 22/22.
Turn 3 Topdeck the other Mind Blast and play it, attack with the Wisp, and deal 22 damage with Edwin.

[Grujah]

You sure that you can do that? (hit a card in their hand with Mind Vision, that 2 of that same card from their with Thoughtsteal)

[popsofctown]

Yeah.  Thoughsteal uses the 30 card deck that entered the game to begin with.  Don't know whether it's a bug or a feature. 

[heron]

Here is a puzzle:

Assuming that your opponent just passes, what ways are there to deal unlimited damage in a single turn?
I have one solution so far.

[popsofctown]

Here is a puzzle:

Assuming that your opponent just passes, what ways are there to deal unlimited damage in a single turn?
I have one solution so far.

That is a better puzzle.  To the best of my knowledge there is only one way to do it, and I didn't figure it out myself, I heard about it.

I would be happy to discover a second method but I think there probably isn't another due to the uniqueness of the effect used.

Blizzard doesn't really seem to be a big fan of combo decks, sadly.

[popsofctown]

Wait, I did come up with another one! 


Play Anduin. Play Lorewalker Cho turn 2 and Mind Vision and Mana Addict turn 3. The Mind Vision copies a Mind Vision.
Turn 4 play Thoughsteal, grabbing Sorcerer's Apprentice and Wisp. 

Turn 5, Play Sorcerer's Apprentice, then play Mind Vision an infinite number of times.  With arbitrarily large amounts of luck, you can hit Mind Vision each time and repeat the Loop.  Mana Addict gets so big that Blizzard's servers crash and then we all go play roguelike games 

[Grujah]

Actually, you can't do infinite damage, I believe max = MAX_INT = 2^31 -1. After that it overflows and gets into negatives.

@pops - you can do the same with Questing Adventurer

Have 3 Sorc App in play, (1 Stolen, 2 coppied) opponent is down to 2 cards in deck, Thoughtsteal and <something> and abuse that. Like thing that doubles HP + lightspawn, anything + mana addict/QA..

[heron]

My answer was:

Play 2 sorcerer's apprentice's, copy them with faceless manipulators, play archmage antonidas, and you then have unlimited fireballs.

[popsofctown]

Actually, you can't do infinite damage, I believe max = MAX_INT = 2^31 -1. After that it overflows and gets into negatives.

@pops - you can do the same with Questing Adventurer

Have 3 Sorc App in play, (1 Stolen, 2 coppied) opponent is down to 2 cards in deck, Thoughtsteal and <something> and abuse that. Like thing that doubles HP + lightspawn, anything + mana addict/QA..

Coding practices aren't as universal as you seem to think Grujah, values other than 2^31-1 are used frequently and the overflows can occur earlier or later.

Your solution is wrong because it requires your opponent to have both Thoughtsteal and Sorcerer's Apprentice in his deck.  That's not a legal deck.

[heron]

Actually, you can't do infinite damage, I believe max = MAX_INT = 2^31 -1. After that it overflows and gets into negatives.

@pops - you can do the same with Questing Adventurer

Have 3 Sorc App in play, (1 Stolen, 2 coppied) opponent is down to 2 cards in deck, Thoughtsteal and <something> and abuse that. Like thing that doubles HP + lightspawn, anything + mana addict/QA..

Since you want to be a silly head Grujah, I'll prove you wrong.

Coding practices aren't as universal as you seem to think Grujah, values other than 2^31-1 are used frequently and the overflows can occur earlier or later.

Your solution is wrong because it requires your opponent to have both Thoughtsteal and Sorcerer's Apprentice in his deck.  That's not a legal deck.

I do know that minion health does cap between 2^30 and 2^31, so it is likely that this is the cap for other numbers too. (Search 1 billion HP hearthstone minion for source, skip to ~halfway)

[Grujah]

Yeah, that's the video that I based my guess on.

And yeah, you are right about solution. Argh.

[blueblimp]

1. I assume we're only allowed legal constructed decks.

Druid -- Player 2 Turn 3 kill.

Method: Starting hand: Wisp, Voodoo Doctor, Leper Gnome, Leper Gnome, Coin

Turn 1.
Draw Innervate.
Play Innervate, Wisp, Voodoo Doctor, Leper Gnome, Leper Gnome.

Turn 2.
Draw Savage Roar.
Play Coin, Savage Roar.
Attack for 1+2+2+2+(4*2) = 15 damage to reduce opponent to 15 life.

Turn 3.
Draw Savage Roar.
Play Savage Roar.
Attack for 15 damage again to kill opponent.

[blueblimp]

3. Druid helpmate P2 turn 1 win:

Hand (coin, 5 cards base plus 2 from oracle):
  Malygos, Innervate, Innervate, Nourish, Nourish, Starfire, Starfire, Coin

Play 2x Innervate, Coin, 2x Nourish for crystals, for a total of 10 mana including your starting 1 mana.
  (I think Nourish crystals start full, right?)
Play Malygos.
Play 2x Starfire for 20 damage, drawing 2x Moonfire.
Play 2x Moonfire for 12 damage, reducing opponent to -2 life.

[heron]

Uh, what?
Nourish costs 5, Malygos costs 9, Starfire costs 6... There is no way you'll get close to enough mana.

Uh... nevermind.

[blueblimp]

heron: Puzzle #3 assumes Millhouse Manastorm was played by player 1 on turn 1.

1. Druid improvement -- Player 1 Turn 3 win.

Method:
6 cards needed:
  Rocketeer, Leeroy, Alarm-o-bot, Innervate, Savage Roar, Wisp

Starting hand: Innervate, Alarm-o-bot, Wisp

T1:
Draw Rocketeer
Play Wisp, Innervate, Alarm-o-bot

T2:
Alarm-o-bot swaps with Rocketeer
Draw Leeroy
Play Innervate, Leeroy
Attack for 5+6+1=12 dmg -> opponent at 18 life

T3:
Draw Savage Roar
Play Savage Roar
Attack for 5+6+1+2*3=18 dmg -> opponent at 0 life

...and apparently I forgot that Savage Roar also gives your hero attack in both these solutions. So improvement may be possible using that.

[blueblimp]

1. Another Priest solution. Same speed as popsofcftown's solution and pretty much same idea, but a little more straightforward. Player 2 Turn 3

Method:
Turn 1:
Mind Vision -> Preparation
Coin, Preparation -> Mindgames -> Deathwing
(I don't think Mindgames should trigger battlecries, but it doesn't matter.)

Turn 2:
Deathwing does 12, Mind Blast for additional 5

Turn 3:
Same and win.

[popsofctown]

I really love your solutions blueblimp! Even the one overlapping mine.

@Grujah, I went and reread my post and I had an adversarial "I'll prove you wrong" there that I failed to edit out.  I actually thought I had an infinite damage solution regardless of the integer cap, one that could repeatedly generate minions to damage in a loop.  Unfortunately I realized my solution required 8 minion slots, and removed it without removing the boast.  Sorry about that.

[blueblimp]

3. Can almost do it with Hunter, but 1 card short in hand and 1 card excess on board.


2x Unleash for 4 hounds do 4 damage base
2x Kill Command for 10 damage
Animal Companion for Huffer does 4 damage base
2x Timber Wolf add 10 damage
Animal Companion for Leokk adds 5 damage

But that's 8 cards and we only have 7. It also puts 8 minions on the board.

Alternatively, we could spend our 2 mana on a Starving Buzzard instead of the wolves. Then we'd have 11 total cards to use, but without the wolf buffs, there aren't enough Hunter hero damage spells to do the trick.

[Jimmmmm]

Player 2 turn 3 as Shaman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erRKRiOApJM&t=1m37s

[blueblimp]

3. Did solutions for the classes that haven't been discussed yet. The Warlock solution needs more cards in hand than the 7+coin that we actually have, though. If anyone can find a legit solution for either Hunter or Warlock, that'd be interesting.

Priest (fixed to not steal Mage spells, since we're playing vs Druid):
2x Thoughtsteal
2x Force of Nature
2x Savage Roar

That's 36 damage from the trees, plus another 2 from your hero.

Didn't need Coldlight Oracle.

Rogue:
2x Sprint to increase from initial 4+2+1=7 non-coin cards to 13 non-coin cards.
Headcrack x2 for 2+2 (consumes 2 cards)
Shiv x2 for 1+1 (consumes no cards)
Eviscerate x2 for 4+4 (consumes 2 cards)
Sinister Strike x2 for 3+3 (consumes 2 cards)
Coin + Dagger + 2x Deadly Poison for 1+2+2 (consumes 2 cards and the coin)
Blade Flurry for 1+2+2 (consumes 1 card and weapon)

Total = 30 damage exactly (!) using 9 cards and the coin

Shaman:
Far Sight draws Leeroy Jenkins, whose cost is reduced to 1
Play Leeroy, which has 6 attack base
Cast Windfury on Leeroy
2x Rockbiter Weapon on Leeroy to raise his attack to 12
Bloodlust to raise Leeroy's attack to 15

Leeroy attacks twice to do 30 damage
Initial cards needed in hand = 5 (so Coldlight Oracle wasn't required)


Warlock (requires too many cards in hand):
Bluegill Warrior for 2
Soulfire x2 for 4+4
Power Overwhelming x2 for 4+4
Drain Life x2 for 2+2
Hellfire x2 for 3+3
Bane of Doom x2 for 2+2

Total damage = 2 + 2*15 = 32
Cards needed = 13 including coin

One card could be dropped while still hitting 30.

Sense Demons x2 brings cards+coin count from initial 8 to 10, but that's not enough.

[Jorbles]

1. I assume we're only allowed legal constructed decks.

Everyone else seems to be assuming this also, but how does it change with Arena decks? Can people find better solutions?

[Jorbles]

1. I have an alternate Druid Player 1 Turn 3 win.

Starting hand: Innervate, Raging Worgen, Moonfire.
Turn 1: Draw Mark of the Wild. Cast Innervate, Raging Worgen, Moonfire->damage Worgen.
Turn 2: Draw Mark of Nature. Mark of the Wild on Raging Worgen. (12 damage)
Turn 3: Mark of Nature on Raging Worgen. (20 damage)

[Jorbles]

1. Shaman Player 1 Turn 3.

Opening hand: Dust Devil, Wisp, Rockbiter Weapon.
Turn 1: Draw Rockbiter Weapon. Cast Dust Devil, Wisp.
Turn 2: Draw Flametongue Totem. Cast Rockbiter Weapon->Dust Devil. (13 damage)
Turn 3: Cast Rockbiter Weapon->Dust Devil, Flametongue Totem. (19 damage)

[Jimmmmm]

Player 2, Turn 1.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Don't know how I never saw this thread before. Seems like fun!

Yeah.  Thoughsteal uses the 30 card deck that entered the game to begin with.  Don't know whether it's a bug or a feature.

This is wrong. Thoughtsteal hits only the draw deck. If the draw deck is empty, you won't get any cards.

[popsofctown]

Don't know how I never saw this thread before. Seems like fun!

Yeah.  Thoughsteal uses the 30 card deck that entered the game to begin with.  Don't know whether it's a bug or a feature.

This is wrong. Thoughtsteal hits only the draw deck. If the draw deck is empty, you won't get any cards.

Are you sure I was wrong when I posted that?

[HiveMindEmulator]

^No I'm not. But I have never experienced it not behaving the way it currently does or seen it in patch notes.

1. Warlock: Player 2 turn 3
starting hand: 2x flame imp, wisp, demonfire, coin
turn 1: draw power overwhelming, play coin, all 3 minions
turn 2: draw power overwhelming, play demonfire on flame imp, hit for 5+3+1=9 (21 life left)
turn 3: draw soulfire, play 2x power overwhelming on wisp, hit for 5+3+9=17 (4 life left), soulfire for 4

1. Warrior: player 2 turn 3
starting hand: 2x wisp, infiltrator, raging worgen, coin
turn 1: draw inner rage, play 2x wisp, infiltrator
turn 2: draw inner rage, play coin, raging worgen, hit for 2+1+1 (26 life left)
turn 3: draw rampage, play 2x inner rage, rampage on raging worgen. hit for 2+1+1+11x2=26

[HiveMindEmulator]

Improvements to (1):

Priest: player 1 turn 3
(vs rogue)
turn 1: play dhawk
turn 2: play mindvision(cold blood), play cold blood, hit for 5x2 (20 left)
turn 3: play mindvision(cold blood), play cold blood, hit for 9x2 (2 left), holy smite

Warlock: player 1 turn 3
turn 1: play dhawk
turn 2: play 2x abusive, hit for 5x2 (20 left)
turn 3: play 2x power overwhelming on dhawk, hit for 9x2+2+2=22

Any (neutral minions only) -- also solves (2): player 2 turn 3
starting hand: 2x dhawk, 2x wisp, coin
turn 1: draw abusive, play coin, 2x dhawk, 2x wisp
turn 2: draw abusive, play 2x abusive, hit for 5x2+1x2+1+1 (16 left)
turn 3: draw and play raid leader, hit for 2x2+2x2+2+2+3+3=18

If we can use Arena rules (more than 2 copies of a card):

Warlock: player 2 turn 2
starting hand: dhawk, 3x power overwhelming, coin
turn 1: draw soulfire, play dhawk
turn 2: draw anything, play coin, 3x power overwhelming, soulfire (26 left), hit for 13x2=26

Rogue: player 2 turn 2
starting hand: dhawk, 3x cold blood, coin
turn 1: draw eviscerate, play dhawk
turn 2: draw prep, play coin, 3x cold blood, prep, eviscerate (26 left), hit for 13x2=26

[HiveMindEmulator]

Oh and another arena one:

Druid: player 1 turn 1
starting hand: 3x innervate
turn 1: draw auctioneer, play 2x innervate, auctioneer, 8x innervate, force, 3x roar, hit for 8+8+8+6=30

[blueblimp]

Here's a puzzle coming from an arena game I just played.

Goal: Find a good play.

His board: Amani Berserker (5/1 because it took 2 damage); Dread Corsair; Windfury Harpy
Your board: 2 Violet Apprentices
Your hand: Abusive Sergeant; Ancient Brewmaster; Northshire Cleric; Shadow Word: Death
Mana available: 10

Edit: Originally I didn't specify other things that could matter like your life totals and your opponent's hand size. In reality, I think I was in the ~15 sort of range of life, my opponent maybe around 20 or so, and my opponent had maybe 3-ish cards in hand. I also had 1-2 cards apart from the ones I mentioned, but I can't remember what they were.

[heron]

Abusive Sargeant and Shadow Word: Death on the harpy, then heal the berserker. I guess play the cleric before the heal.

[Twistedarcher]

This doesn't seem challenging, you have tons of options.

I'd go with Abusive Sergeant on the Harpy, Shadow Word: Death it, Violet Apprentice attacks Dread Corsair, Northshire Cleric, heal the Berserker, throw the other Violet Apprentice into it. Clears his board, you get 2 1/1s, and nothing you have dies.

[blueblimp]

Hm interesting. It didn't occur to me at the time to heal the Berserker to de-enrage it and draw a card from the Cleric. Still, I don't think that can be part of the best play. Drawing a single card from the Cleric and allowing it to die nearly for free on your opponent's turn doesn't seem appealing.

This doesn't seem challenging, you have tons of options.

I'd go with Abusive Sergeant on the Harpy, Shadow Word: Death it, Violet Apprentice attacks Dread Corsair, Northshire Cleric, heal the Berserker, throw the other Violet Apprentice into it. Clears his board, you get 2 1/1s, and nothing you have dies.

They're Violet Apprentices, 1/1s, not Violet Teachers.

[Twistedarcher]

Oh, well that changes everything.


Abusive sergeant the harpy, Shadow word:death it, play brewmaster and bounce the sergeant, play sergeant on a 1/1 and trade it into the dread corsair, trade the 1/1 into the 5/1. And then drop the Cleric with the extra mana I suppose

[KingZog3]

Oh, well that changes everything.


Abusive sergeant the harpy, Shadow word:death it, play brewmaster and bounce the sergeant, play sergeant on a 1/1 and trade it into the dread corsair, trade the 1/1 into the 5/1. And then drop the Cleric with the extra mana I suppose

Save the Cleric. I almost never drop cleric unless I can get cards out of it. It's too valuable to lose easily.

[blueblimp]

Oh, well that changes everything.


Abusive sergeant the harpy, Shadow word:death it, play brewmaster and bounce the sergeant, play sergeant on a 1/1 and trade it into the dread corsair, trade the 1/1 into the 5/1. And then drop the Cleric with the extra mana I suppose

Yep, this is what I had in mind. I like how it works out so cleanly.

Here's an arena endgame puzzle adapted from a game that I just played.

You: Mage at 16 life; Water Elemental on board. 2 cards left in deck: a Gurubashi Berserker, and a Pint-Sized Summoner.
Opponent: Priest at 24 life; empty board. 1 card left in deck.

Opponent turn: He draws his last card, and plays it: a Sea Giant for 9 mana.
Your turn: You draw the Gurubashi Berserker.

Objective: Win the game.

[Jdaki]

Seems simple enough, but I find it hard to visualise these situations completely:
Fireblast berserker to take it to 5 attack, attack giant with elemental and then next turn with berserker(can be fireblasted again if he healed the giant back to 7), each subsequent turn hit him with the summoner and fireblast.

[ashersky]

heron: Puzzle #3 assumes Millhouse Manastorm was played by player 1 on turn 1.

1. Druid improvement -- Player 1 Turn 3 win.

Method:
6 cards needed:
  Rocketeer, Leeroy, Alarm-o-bot, Innervate, Savage Roar, Wisp

Starting hand: Innervate, Alarm-o-bot, Wisp

T1:
Draw Rocketeer
Play Wisp, Innervate, Alarm-o-bot

T2:
Alarm-o-bot swaps with Rocketeer
Draw Leeroy
Play Innervate, Leeroy
Attack for 5+6+1=12 dmg -> opponent at 18 life

T3:
Draw Savage Roar
Play Savage Roar
Attack for 5+6+1+2*3=18 dmg -> opponent at 0 life

...and apparently I forgot that Savage Roar also gives your hero attack in both these solutions. So improvement may be possible using that.

Where's the T2 innovate coming from?

[HiveMindEmulator]

Seems simple enough, but I find it hard to visualise these situations completely:
Fireblast berserker to take it to 5 attack, attack giant with elemental and then next turn with berserker(can be fireblasted again if he healed the giant back to 7), each subsequent turn hit him with the summoner and fireblast.

Yeah I think the right play is easy enough to find. There's really nothing else you can do. Calculating if it will win or not is the harder part.

[blueblimp]

Seems simple enough, but I find it hard to visualise these situations completely:
Fireblast berserker to take it to 5 attack, attack giant with elemental and then next turn with berserker(can be fireblasted again if he healed the giant back to 7), each subsequent turn hit him with the summoner and fireblast.

Yep, this is what I had in mind. It didn't occur to me during the game though that his having a higher life and a more fatigue-effective hero ability might cause me to lose anyway, despite me having a minion. Since I forgot the exact life totals, I adjusted the numbers here to ensure things work out.

[markusin]

Puzzle:
I present to you three possible candidates for "Really Bad Hearthstone Card Ideas":

-----
Card X
3 mana - Spell

Restore 10 health to the enemy hero

-----
Card Y
3 mana - Spell

Silence your minions, then destory them

-----
Card Z
3 mana - Spell

Discard your hand. Your opponent discards the same number of cards you discarded.

-----

Besides appealing to masochists, the 3 cards above have a similar function. What is that function?

I was thinking of starting a "Really Bad Hearthstone Card Ideas" thread to showcase these cards, but decided against it. Who am I to say we are ready for such a thread.

[Grujah]

Each one stops a Giant from being cast?
(Molten, Sea and Mountain respectfully).

[markusin]

Each one stops a Giant from being cast?
(Molten, Sea and Mountain respectfully).

Yup. Nice job.

[theory]

Can't remember the exact board situation, but the other day I won a game because of Force of Nature -> attack to the face -> Innervate -> Ironbeak Owl one of the Truants -> Mark of the Wild.

[HiveMindEmulator]

^Owls are a great deterrent to truancy.

[heron]

Here's a puzzle: How might a mage or a druid acquire a weapon?

[KingZog3]

Here's a puzzle: How might a mage or a druid acquire a weapon?

Any class can. Warrior play arathi weapons smith. Sylvannas Windrunner grabs it. Then one of the brewmasters puts it into my hand so that I can play it can have a weapon.

[blueblimp]

Here's a puzzle: How might a mage or a druid acquire a weapon?

Some methods:

Minion method:

Via MC Tech, Sylvanas, Faceless Manipulator, or Mirror Entity, gain control of an Arathi Weaponsmith or Tirion Fordring. With Mirror Entity only, gain control of Jaraxxus.

With Arathi Weaponsmith or Jaraxxus: Return her/him to hand using Youthful Brewmaster or Dream (from Ysera). Play her/him to equip a weapon from her/his battlecry.
With Tirion Fordring: Let him die and equip a weapon from his deathrattle.


Spell method:

Have Lorewalker Cho in play when your opponent plays Upgrade. Then play Upgrade yourself to equip a weapon.

[blueblimp]

I just found out that Amaz has a series of puzzle videos. I've only watched one so far, which I'll reproduce in this post as a screenshot.



Question: do you have lethal?
Follow-up: Is lethal guaranteed? If not, how do you give yourself the best possible chance to win if the play fails?

Video link (has solution): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5DiRvUihZE

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think the right play is to attack with Sylvanas and then Death it. If you get Leeroy, you win. If not, you kill Leeroy with the Whelps, and heal up to 6. This wins immediately 50% of the time, and next turn he can only kill you if he draws Arcane Golem, Huffer, or Unleash (or some unusual card like King Krush or Argent Commander). And you should probably have lethal next turn since he shouldn't have a way of removing multiple minions of yours.

[ashersky]

I think the right play is to attack with Sylvanas and then Death it. If you get Leeroy, you win. If not, you kill Leeroy with the Whelps, and heal up to 6. This wins immediately 50% of the time, and next turn he can only kill you if he draws Arcane Golem, Huffer, or Unleash (or some unusual card like King Krush or Argent Commander). And you should probably have lethal next turn since he shouldn't have a way of removing multiple minions of yours.

I got up to 22 damage...trade 1 Amani + Whelp to kill Kodo; Slyvanus to the face; SW: D her; Leeroy to the Face; play Auchenai; hero power the Amani to enrage; 7 to the Face; 1 Whelp to the Face; Earthen Ring Farseer + 3 to the face.  That's 5 + 6 + 7 + 1 + 3.  Unless he heals or kills you, you are guaranteed a win the next turn with Auchenai + hero power.

[theory]

I think the right play is to attack with Sylvanas and then Death it. If you get Leeroy, you win. If not, you kill Leeroy with the Whelps, and heal up to 6. This wins immediately 50% of the time, and next turn he can only kill you if he draws Arcane Golem, Huffer, or Unleash (or some unusual card like King Krush or Argent Commander). And you should probably have lethal next turn since he shouldn't have a way of removing multiple minions of yours.

I got up to 22 damage...trade 1 Amani + Whelp to kill Kodo; Slyvanus to the face; SW: D her; Leeroy to the Face; play Auchenai; hero power the Amani to enrage; 7 to the Face; 1 Whelp to the Face; Earthen Ring Farseer + 3 to the face.  That's 5 + 6 + 7 + 1 + 3.  Unless he heals or kills you, you are guaranteed a win the next turn with Auchenai + hero power.

There aren't any Amanis on the board ...

[ashersky]

There aren't any Amanis on the board ...

Doh. 

Then I get 21 Damage.  Syl to face, trade for Kodo, SW: D for Leeroy then face, 5 more from minions, 2+3 from reverse heals.  21 damage, 3 to go, he has no minions.  You get 2 damage guaranteed next turn, which isn't a guaranteed win.

[Grujah]

I've seen this already. HME's play is the right play.

Edit: Well, what you've already seen him play can influence the decision a bit, but we do not have that info, so it's still the best play.

[ashersky]

I've seen this already. HME's play is the right play.

Edit: Well, what you've already seen him play can influence the decision a bit, but we do not have that info, so it's still the best play.

Can you explain why my play would be the "wrong" play?  I'm not arguing so much as trying to learn.

[Grujah]

Because you are left with 1 hp and he has hero power, you die on his next turn, guaranteed.

[Grujah]

But even against other options (like killing the Kodo first, or suiciding Whelps to prevent UTH win) it's still the best play. It gives most chances of win and leaves him with as few outs as most other options.

[ashersky]

Because you are left with 1 hp and he has hero power, you die on his next turn, guaranteed.

I completely just missed my own life being at 1 there.

[KingZog3]

He could still play Leeroy, because theat Leeroy could be a faceless copy of your Leeroy. We don't know what's been played either, since if he's already played both UTH or something the play could be different.

[blueblimp]

Another good one from Amaz's puzzle series (which aren't all really puzzles, so I don't think it's too crazy to select out the ones here that are).



Goal: Clear the board.
Follow-up: Find a second way to clear the board.

Video (with solution): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyipfFs5psE

[Grujah]

He could still play Leeroy, because theat Leeroy could be a faceless copy of your Leeroy. We don't know what's been played either, since if he's already played both UTH or something the play could be different.

You do have to consider that hunters generally do not play Faceless.

Amaz's puzzle #11 is a good one, mostly cuz he failed and didn't spot lethal

[EgorK]

CoH, HP on pyro, SM on argus, argus attacks azure, pws on pyro, pyro attacks sylvana

[blueblimp]

CoH, HP on pyro, SM on argus, argus attacks azure, pws on pyro, pyro attacks sylvana

What does HP mean?

[Grujah]

Hero Power.

[KingZog3]

He could still play Leeroy, because theat Leeroy could be a faceless copy of your Leeroy. We don't know what's been played either, since if he's already played both UTH or something the play could be different.

You do have to consider that hunters generally do not play Faceless.

Amaz's puzzle #11 is a good one, mostly cuz he failed and didn't spot lethal

Well yes, but it's a puzzle. Many things in the game could change the puzzle and we have no info about style of decks or what has been played.

[Jorbles]

Goal: Clear the board.
Follow-up: Find a second way to clear the board.

Followup solution: PW: Shield on Pyromancer, draw Auchenai Soul Priest. Auchenai, CoH + Pyromancer should wipe the board.

[blueblimp]

Goal: Clear the board.
Follow-up: Find a second way to clear the board.

Followup solution: PW: Shield on Pyromancer, draw Auchenai Soul Priest. Auchenai, CoH + Pyromancer should wipe the board.

Wouldn't the CoH kill the Pyromancer before its effect triggers? I actually don't know!

There are two ways to clear the board even without using whatever card is drawn.

[ashersky]

New puzzle:

What are some card combos where you can pull off the Flamestrike effect?  I'm looking for non-mage plays that can do at least 4 damage to all minions for less than 7.  Two to start off with:

Rogue for 6 mana: Hero Power, Deadly Poison, Deadly Poison, Blade Flurry (5 damage to all enemies)
Warlock for 5 mana:  Wisp, Power Overwhelming, Shadowflame (5 damage to all minions)

What's the cheapest you can do?  What's the most damage you can do?

[Kirian]

Priest has the well-known 4-mana Auchenai Soulpriest + CoH, which even leaves a guaranteed 3/1.

Paladin, alas, needs 8 mana for 2x Kobold Geomancer, Consecration. Druid is even worse.

[ashersky]

Can Druid even do it?  Can you boost Starfall damage?

[ashersky]

I realized for 10 mana, Warlock can do a 11 damage version with Venture Co. Merc, Power Overwhelming, Shadowflame

[Grujah]

Ancient Watcher/Shadowflame is actually viable play that I see often.  It's 6 mana.

Paladins do it for 5, It's called Wild Pyro - Equality.

[Kirian]

Can Druid even do it?  Can you boost Starfall damage?

Only in the same basic way.  So 2x Kobold, Start all for 9 mana.  Also doable: Thalnos, 2x Kobold, Swipe for 10 mana.  Has the advantage of 7 face damage, or taking out a bigger minion.

Or even sillier:  Poison Seeds, Kobold, Swipe for 10 mana, guaranteed to take out even the biggest minions and also do 5 face damage.

[ashersky]

Can Druid even do it?  Can you boost Starfall damage?

Only in the same basic way.  So 2x Kobold, Start all for 9 mana.  Also doable: Thalnos, 2x Kobold, Swipe for 10 mana.  Has the advantage of 7 face damage, or taking out a bigger minion.

Or even sillier:  Poison Seeds, Kobold, Swipe for 10 mana, guaranteed to take out even the biggest minions and also do 5 face damage.

But it's not possible to match or overtake Flamestrike, which was the puzzle.  That's why the Paladin answer isn't correct, either.

I don't think you can do 4+ damage to all minions with a Druid, unless you can pump up Starfall's 2 to all.

[Lekkit]

Two Kobolds, Thalnos and Swipe is 10 mana but match Flamestrike on all guys and does 3 bonus damage to one.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't think you can do 4+ damage to all minions with a Druid, unless you can pump up Starfall's 2 to all.

In early beta before Savagery was removednerfed, you could do Bite+Savagery, which was a common combo, and part of why Druid was even more OP than it is now.

[shraeye]

Here's something I was thinking.  What is the most damaging Fatigue card that could be drawn without either player having lost yet?

[markusin]

Here's something I was thinking.  What is the most damaging Fatigue card that could be drawn without either player having lost yet?

This is why I usually don't bother with Dominion/Hearthstone puzzles. This puzzle depends on how much extra armor can be squeezed out with armorsmith. I'm not even gonna try to calculate that.

[markusin]

Also note that Priest can thoughtsteal the armorsmiths and have multiple Prophet Velen's on the board thanks to Faceless Manipulator.

[Grujah]

One player has 6 armorsmiths and a Cho, other one 7 armorsmiths (do-able with Mindvision + Cho).
Few turns earlier, with Double Cho (you don't necessarily need double cho) , you set up a hand of 7 Whirlwinds and 3 Circle of healing before killing second cho (with old weapon) and replacing it with armorsmith.

So thats 7*7*7 = 343 armor each turn for 7 armorsmith guy, and 294 + 2 from hero power for other guy.

Each player with 6-7 Velens and one Cho and hand of 5 holy lights can gain ~3000 hp each turn, but unfortunately it doesn't go over 30

[Grujah]

If somebody wants to set this up for an awesome youtube video, it could be fun, I'd be in (though I don't have cho)

[shraeye]

So it would have to be armor based (otherwise, it caps out at fatigue of -30, right?), so at least one player needs to be Warrior?  Priest/Warrior is the best matchup, so Circle of Healing can be a factor? Or is Warrior/Warrior good?

[HiveMindEmulator]

^It has to be Warrior vs Priest so you can get out a ton of Armorsmiths and heal them. Warrior vs Warrior can't get as many or get it up as fast (you have to wait for Faceless) and then you can't really heal them. Darkscale is too expensive.

I think replacing an Armorsmith for each player with a Divine Spirit Pyromancer should improve things. Then you can have 5 WW, 5 Circle and get 15 instances of damage (2 from each WW reducing everything to 1 HP and 1 from each Circle getting them back up to 3), resulting in 15*7*6 = 630 armor per turn for the Priest and 15*7*5+2 = 527 for the Warrior with Cho. Increasing the health further would probably waste too many turns to set up, which is costly if every turn is worth 500+ armor.

[markusin]

I don't think you can do 4+ damage to all minions with a Druid, unless you can pump up Starfall's 2 to all.

In early beta before Savagery was removednerfed, you could do Bite+Savagery, which was a common combo, and part of why Druid was even more OP than it is now.

Man, what were they thinking when they made Savagery the way it is now. It's possibly worse than Moonfire.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't think you can do 4+ damage to all minions with a Druid, unless you can pump up Starfall's 2 to all.

In early beta before Savagery was removednerfed, you could do Bite+Savagery, which was a common combo, and part of why Druid was even more OP than it is now.

Man, what were they thinking when they made Savagery the way it is now. It's possibly worse than Moonfire.

They were thinking "Spell Druid is waaaay to strong. Nerfing Ancient of Lore, Starfall, Wrath, Cenarius, and Greenskin won't be enough -- we need to remove some of the cards from the game. Let's go with Savagery and Dalaran Mage."

[KingZog3]

I don't think you can do 4+ damage to all minions with a Druid, unless you can pump up Starfall's 2 to all.

In early beta before Savagery was removednerfed, you could do Bite+Savagery, which was a common combo, and part of why Druid was even more OP than it is now.

Man, what were they thinking when they made Savagery the way it is now. It's possibly worse than Moonfire.

They were thinking "Spell Druid is waaaay to strong. Nerfing Ancient of Lore, Starfall, Wrath, Cenarius, and Greenskin won't be enough -- we need to remove some of the cards from the game. Let's go with Savagery and Dalaran Mage."

I feel savagery could have a base of 1 damage. Most of the time it'll just be a conditional Holy Smite, but with Claw and Bite it could do more damage.

[blueblimp]

Setup: You have 4 cards in hand (as if P1). Opponent has 5 cards in hand (as if P2, so one is coin). 26 cards remaining in your deck. 10 mana crystals. The board is clear. Both you and your opponent have 30 health.

Goal: This turn, kill yourself using only fatigue damage.

Rules: You may use any legal constructed deck, you may pick a legal constructed deck for your opponent, and you may assume perfect shuffling and RNG luck. Assume this is the first turn in every way except that you have 10 mana crystals to work with. (For example, you can't assume your opponent played Millhouse Manastorm.)

A possible solution:

Play Priest vs Mage.

Opening hand: Mind Vision x2, Thoughtsteal, Mindgames.

Play Mind Vision, receive Sorcerer's Apprentice. (Mana 1/10, drawn 4.)
Play Apprentice. (Mana 3/10.)
Play Thoughtsteal, receive Apprentice x2. (Mana 5/10.)
Play Apprentice x2. (Mana 9/10.)
Play Mindgames, putting Gadgetzan Auctioneer on the board. (Mana 10/10.)
Play Mind Vision, receiving Coin (from opponent), drawing Mindgames (from Auctioneer). (Mana 10/10, drawn 5.)
Play Coin, drawing Thoughtsteal. (Mana 10/11, drawn 6)
Play Mindgames, putting another Auctioneer on the board and drawing some card. (Mana 11/11, drawn 7.)
Play Thoughtsteal, receiving Arcane Intellect x2 and drawing two cards. (Mana 11/11, drawn 9.)

State at this point: three Sorcerer's Apprentices and two Gadgetzan Auctioneers on the board. All mana used. Two Arcane Intellects and three arbitrary cards in hand. 9 cards drawn from our deck (so 21 remain).

The minimum amount of overdraw necessary to die from fatigue is 8 cards, which does 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 = 36 damage. So we need to draw a total of 29 additional cards on top of those we've already drawn, using only spells with mana cost at most 3.

Cast both Arcane Intellects to draw 2*(2+2) = 8 more cards, so we need 21 more draws. Cast two Power Word: Shields to draw 2*(1+2) = 6 more cards, so now we need 15 more draws.

It's enough to find 4 Priest spells with mana cost at most 3 that we haven't used already, because by casting each spell type twice, we'd get 8 casts to draw 16 cards. In fact we can find 8:
- Circle of Healing
- Silence -- note: if used, use these last, on a Sorcerer's Apprentice
- Holy Smite -- use these on opponent's face
- Inner Fire
- Divine Spirit
- Mind Blast
- Shadow Word: Pain -- note: if used, use these second last (before silence), on Sorcerer's Apprentices
- Shadowform


Edit: Fixed bug noted by EgorK. (The fix makes the solution a little stronger.) I'm interested to know whether any substantially different solution is possible other than the one above.

[EgorK]

Seems like you need even less. Arcane intellect should actually draw 4 cards each, pws - 3

[EgorK]

Another puzzle - enumerate ways to achieve mutual defeat

3 obvious are hellfire, eye for eye and auchenai priest with either holy nova or holy fire

[markusin]

Another puzzle - enumerate ways to achieve mutual defeat

3 obvious are hellfire, eye for eye and auchenai priest with either holy nova or holy fire

Abomination, Ysera Awakens spell (5 damage to all other characters), lethal Consecration/Holy Nova that kills a leper gnome when you have <=2 health. It's even possible for Coldlight Oracle to have both players die to fatigue from the card draw.

I'm not sure if this works, but summoning a Flame Imp or Pit Lord when the self damage is lethal, but then Knife Juggler throws a lethal knife to the face from the summoning. By extension, what if you defeat your opponent with a swipe to the face or something that also kills a minion that spawns another minion with deathrattle, triggering lethal Juggler knifes? What if both players have Knife Jugglers and Leeroy and the Whelps both cause lethal knives to be thrown?

[blueblimp]

This reddit post is a Druid P2 turn 3 win in ranked play: http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/2ol0ow/thats_ok_i_didnt_want_to_play_today_anyway/.

Edit: I should have mentioned that it's pre-GvG. Same idea works from P1 seat for a turn 3 win:

Turn 1: Innervate, Murloc Tidecaller x2, Grimscale Oracle. On board: 4/2, 3/2, 1/1.
Turn 2: Murloc Tidehunter. Hit face for 12 damage. On board: 6/2, 5/2, 1/1, 3/1, 2/1.
Turn 3: Murloc Warleader. Hit face for 29 damage. On board: 9/3, 8/3, 3/2, 5/2, 4/2, 4/3.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Puzzle! Can you find lethal this turn?





In case it's not clear, your hand is Slam (1 Mana), Firey War Axe (1), Death's Bite (1), Frothing Berserker (3), Dread Corsair x 2 (3 each), Warsong Commander (2), Whirlwind (1). Your board is two 3/2 Grim Patrons. Opponent has 29 health and 2 armor, and a 3/5 Sludge Belcher.

EDIT: Card you draw from Slam isn't needed, if applicable.

This puzzle comes from Trump's stream. Spoilers below:

youtube.com/watch?v=e7glgmM9nuM

[Jorbles]

Assuming you don't top deck your solution from Slam I think the max damage you can do is the following:

You cast Warsong Commander, Frothing Berserker, Death's Bite, Dread Corsair x 2 (now free), Whirlwind

Your opponent's board should look like this:
Sludge Belcher 3/4
And yours should look like this:
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/3
Grim Patron 3/3
Warson Commander 2/2 (can't attack)
Dread Corsair 3/2
Dread Corsair 3/2
Frothing Berserker (9/3)
Death's Bite

Send both 3/1 Grim Patrons in and then one of the 3/3s to finish the Sludge and it's death rattler. Now your board should look like this:
15/3 Frothing
Grim 3/2 (already attacked)
Grim 3/3
Grim 3/3
Dread 3/2
Dread 3/2
Warsong 2/2 (can't attack)
Death's Bite

You send everything face and you have 31 damage.

[ycz6]

IIRC Trump did find lethal, but it took him like 45 minutes after the game had ended

[markusin]

Assuming you don't top deck your solution from Slam I think the max damage you can do is the following:

You cast Warsong Commander, Frothing Berserker, Death's Bite, Dread Corsair x 2 (now free), Whirlwind

Your opponent's board should look like this:
Sludge Belcher 3/4
And yours should look like this:
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/3
Grim Patron 3/3
Warson Commander 2/2 (can't attack)
Dread Corsair 3/2
Dread Corsair 3/2
Frothing Berserker (9/3)
Death's Bite

Send both 3/1 Grim Patrons in and then one of the 3/3s to finish the Sludge and it's death rattler. Now your board should look like this:
15/3 Frothing
Grim 3/2 (already attacked)
Grim 3/3
Grim 3/3
Dread 3/2
Dread 3/2
Warsong 2/2 (can't attack)
Death's Bite

You send everything face and you have 31 damage.

You can't have 8 minions on the board at once. You can't play both corsairs before the whirlwind and still get both patrons. This means your Frothing Berserker will have 1 less attack and you'll be 1 damage short.

[markusin]

I think I got the solution.


Warsong Commander -> Frothing Berserker -> Fiery War Axe -> 2x Dread Corsair (free from War Axe) -> Whirlwind

Your opponent's board should look like this:
Sludge Belcher 3/4
And yours should look like this:
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/3
Warson Commander 2/2 (can't attack)
Dread Corsair 3/2
Dread Corsair 3/2
Frothing Berserker (9/3)
Fiery War Axe
2 mana left

Trade both Corsairs into Belcher, then the 3/3 patron into the Slime, gaining another 3/3 Patron.

Your board:
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/2 (Already Attacked)
Grim Patron 3/3
Warson Commander 2/2 (can't attack)
Frothing Berserker (15/3)
Fiery War Axe (3/2)

Slam your 3/3 Grim Patron, gaining another Patron and boosting your Berserker by 1 attack.

Your board:
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/1
Grim Patron 3/2 (Already Attacked)
Grim Patron 3/1 (slammed)
Grim Patron 3/3
Warson Commander 2/2 (can't attack)
Frothing Berserker (16/3)
Fiery War Axe (3/2)

4X3 attack Grim Patrons + 16 Attack Berserker + 3 attack Fiery war axe = 12 + 16 + 3 = 31

[HiveMindEmulator]

^Right, but you mean Death's Bite    , not Fiery War Axe   .

Nvm. I counted wrong. I was thinking Fiery War Axe didn't make the Corsairs free.

[Drab Emordnilap]

^Right, but you mean Death's Bite    , not Fiery War Axe   .

Pretty sure he means what he said he means -- you're short on mana otherwise.

[Jorbles]

You can't have 8 minions on the board at once. You can't play both corsairs before the whirlwind and still get both patrons. This means your Frothing Berserker will have 1 less attack and you'll be 1 damage short.

Shoot I didn't notice that. Well I was close anyways. Glad markusin got it.

[Grujah]

IIRC Trump did find lethal, but it took him like 45 minutes after the game had ended

That's why I stopped playing Patron, it takes too long to find the right line of play and even when you do find it in time, you still have to perform everything and after a few games where I had to rush my turn and fuck everything up I switched.