Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies  (Read 6310 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

vandergus

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
  • Respect: +4
    • View Profile
An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« on: December 16, 2013, 10:40:04 am »
+3

I'm just getting started in the area of simulation so I wanted to start with something simple. I'm mainly interested in using simulation to help answer tactical questions rather than strategic questions. So, rather than, does strategy X beat strategy Y, I'd like to know what is the optimal way to play strategy X. In the Workshop/Gardens strategy, for example, how many Workshops do you buy before you start getting gardens. As a new player, this is not obvious to me. I would have guessed about 4. It turns out that Workshop/Gardens is fastest when you buy all the Workshops first (see this thread for some discussion). But that's only true when you're basically playing solitaire. I wanted to know if you could still beat BM strategies if they started contesting you on Gardens.

First the W/G bot
Code: [Select]
# A Workshop/Gardens rush strategy
#
# Buys only workshops until all are purchased. Then switches to gaining and buying Gardens.
# Will switch early if it sees the opponent buy a Gardens.
{
  name: 'Workshop Gardens'
  requires: ['Workshop', 'Gardens']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Gardens" if my.countInDeck("Workshop") >= 10 \
              or state.countInSupply("Gardens") < 8
    "Workshop"
    "Duchy"
    "Estate"
    "Silver"
    "Copper"
  ]
}

I started with the DoubleJack bot. In a match with no interaction, Workshop/Gardens is a ~60/40 favorite. Then I tried making the DJ bot buy Gardens, but only after it sees the W/G player buy them. If it starts buying them too early, its deck gets diluted and can't keep up with the W/G deck. If it waits til the W/G player starts going after them, the DJ deck has had time to develop and can basically split the Gardens without slowing down too much (Note: it's still better to buy Province with 8 rather than a Gardens). DJ becomes a ~80/20 favorite.

Code: [Select]
# Buys two Jacks of All Trades and otherwise plays a version of Big Money.
#
# If it sees Gardens being purchased, it starts to buy them over Silver and Duchies
{
  name: 'DoubleJack'
  requires: ["Jack of All Trades"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province" if my.getTotalMoney() > 15
    "Gardens" if state.countInSupply("Gardens") < 8
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Gold"
    "Jack of All Trades" if my.countInDeck("Jack of All Trades") < 2
    "Silver"
  ]
}

So the Gardens player has to make some decisions. They know the optimal solitaire strategy is to buy all 10 Workshops first, but if the DJ player is smart, they can contest the Gardens late in the game and crush them. So it's probably better to force them to buy Gardens earlier, before their deck is full of treasure. If W/G only buys 2 Workshops before going for Gardens, they can close the gap, but DJ is still favored ~58/42 (In this case, DJ starts buying Gardens as soon as the W/G player does). But if DJ simply ignores the sub-optimal play of greening after just 2 Workshops, and doesn't buy any Gardens, they crush ~85/16. So the W/G player is in a catch 22. If they wait til their deck is full of Workshops, the DJ player can split the Gardens without a problem, but if they green too early the DJ player can win by simply having a stronger deck. I think this is cool.

I'm sure a lot of folks are way ahead of this but it was a good exercise for me and hopefully it put some data behind peoples' intuition. I'll probably expand this to some other Gardens and BM strategies as well, to see if the same tactics can be successful. I should also add another condition to the Garden buying in the DJ bot that delays buying until later in the game. Not sure what game state attribute to look at, though.



Some simulator questions. In Dominiator, is there a way to query the number of cards in an opponent's deck? So instead of my.countInDeck("Gardens") I could use something like opp.countInDeck("Gardens"). Couldn't find anything in the coffee code.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 05:04:12 pm by vandergus »
Logged

Warfreak2

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1149
  • KC->KC->[Scavenger, Scavenger, Lookout]
  • Respect: +1324
    • View Profile
    • Music what I do
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 11:48:34 am »
0

I am not surprised that DoubleJack beats Workshop/Gardens, the latter being beatable sometimes even in base-only games. It also makes total sense that you should get all the Workshops first in solitaire, because you need all 20 gains to end the game, and the Gardens don't improve your deck. You may be able to improve DoubleJack's Gardens-denial by having it trash the Gardens it buys, unless the game is nearly over.
Logged
If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

vandergus

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
  • Respect: +4
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 01:50:14 pm »
0

I am not surprised that DoubleJack beats Workshop/Gardens, the latter being beatable sometimes even in base-only games. It also makes total sense that you should get all the Workshops first in solitaire, because you need all 20 gains to end the game, and the Gardens don't improve your deck. You may be able to improve DoubleJack's Gardens-denial by having it trash the Gardens it buys, unless the game is nearly over.

Yeah, it seemed obvious to me after I saw the results. If you're going to end up piling the Workshops anyway, it makes sense to buy them all first. But I was stuck in the "Don't buy too many terminals" way of thinking. It would be interesting to see how the optimum number of Workshops changes if there is another card to buy for the third pile.

That's an interesting thought about Gardens denial. I'll have to look into trash priorities.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 07:54:17 am »
0

In my experience, a good rule of thumb for BigMoney vs Gardens is to just buy the Gardens instead of Duchies at the point where you would normally start buying Duchies in BigMoney, that is after 2 Provinces.
This will help many BigMoney startegies to beat the Workshoprush.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 10:40:36 am »
0

the workshop/gardens player should probably start buying gardens earlier because they might be contested. maybe even before it sees them buy a gardens.
Logged

ephesos

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 347
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ephesos
  • Respect: +290
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 02:08:36 am »
0

Quote
Some simulator questions. In Dominiator, is there a way to query the number of cards in an opponent's deck? So instead of my.countInDeck("Gardens") I could use something like opp.countInDeck("Gardens"). Couldn't find anything in the coffee code.
You can call players[0] and players[1]; you just have to figure out which one you are(maybe compare your Workshop or Gardens count), then look at the other one's Gardens count. It's a little obnoxious for something that should be simpler, though...
Logged

c4master

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
  • Respect: +56
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2014, 02:22:13 am »
0

What is - in a common sense - the best Gardens strategy? Beggar/Gardens?

Maybe you should compare these.

Oh, and how about adding Villages for the Gardens player? Will that help gain multiple pieces per turn?

edit: Garden can also really be a very strong slog card. 5VP Gardens are really tough to beat. If the rush is too slow, you could transition into a slog and just gain a lot of silvers to eventually peak some duchies.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 02:24:51 am by c4master »
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2014, 02:44:43 am »
0

What is - in a common sense - the best Gardens strategy? Beggar/Gardens?

Beggar/Gardens is probably the best slog, and very good in beating rushes.  It's however not good in rushing, against an engine it is pretty dangerous. You rely on the long game to get really lots of points, but a long game is also what the engines like to get lots of points and/or mess with your deck.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 04:12:07 am »
0

For rushes it's likely to be Ironworks/Gardens.  The question of how many Ironworks you want there before starting on Gardens is much more interesting, as by emptying the Ironworks first you would remove your ability to take both Ironworks and Gardens on later turns.  So there's a simulation project there for somebody.  Of course, the results aren't going to be so interesting as uncontested Ironworks/Gardens is unlikely to be something you ever play.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 06:35:55 am »
0

Beggar/gardens can get duchies as well and that is important in mirror matches.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2014, 07:01:42 am »
0

For rushes it's likely to be Ironworks/Gardens.  The question of how many Ironworks you want there before starting on Gardens is much more interesting, as by emptying the Ironworks first you would remove your ability to take both Ironworks and Gardens on later turns.  So there's a simulation project there for somebody.  Of course, the results aren't going to be so interesting as uncontested Ironworks/Gardens is unlikely to be something you ever play.
There being a cheap splitter probably increases the number of Ironworks you want, because you can purchase it when you don't have $4 for IW or Gardens, and then you can get double Gardens turns.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

c4master

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
  • Respect: +56
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 03:29:39 am »
0

How about Ironworks/Workshop/Gardens?

With an Ironworks, get more Ironworks (or Workshops later on) if you have another gainer on your hand. If you don't, gain Gardens.

If you miss $4 you can at least buy a workshop. This might empty piles in like no time. Maybe I'm going to simulate this later today. :)

edit: Is there any way to find out, which cards a player holds in his own hand?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 07:58:52 am by c4master »
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: An exploration of Workshop/Gardens vs Big Money strategies
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2014, 09:20:48 am »
0

This exploration of ironworks/silk road might help you with your ironworks/gardens. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1896.0
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.109 seconds with 20 queries.