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Author Topic: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...  (Read 38352 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2011, 09:04:26 pm »
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You guys are great, I really hope I run into some of you at a gaming convention one day. I'd really like to buy all of you a beer.

Qvist - Yeah testing showed the card to not be quite as broken as it would appear, well said. The trick to beating it was being agile enough, that you could counter-attack nearly as often, but then also build a more agile/robust engine. Summon was a "simpler/easier" route, that often worked, but often there was a better, subtler way to win. Removing the +1 Action would, I fear, leave it dead on the board in a lot of games.

I don't think it works at all as a terminal card (or at least I think if its terminal it's a 2$ card). In the situation where you had no ations on the stack, you really wouldn't do anything but tutor your first treasure and so the average gain would be maybe 2$ in the later rounds and far, far worse in the early rounds. On the situation where you got both terminals (Summon+the card you want to tutor for), well the situation is worse. You'd "hit the lottery" on a Village+Summon draw, it means you could tutor the marquee terminal and play it, but that is a lot of work and not easy to ensure you get that. You could build an engine to get that, and if you've built an engine, you don't really need the Summon. Not to mention, the design would ensure you'd never want more than one. But then I guess a lot of terminals wind up being like that. Summon's "appeal" is a fast, quick, instant engine to launch attacks (or some other strong terminal). It soars early, sputters late and isn't particularly agile, but can be extremely effective.

You assessed the card perfectly (in fact it took you just a few minutes to deduce what it took me 100 games to arrive at, I really marvel at how well you guys assess and judge cards). The card is overpowered when a card like Witch or Torturer is in the Kingdom and really lousy when other obvious engines are there. Your 4$ advice, I think is literally right on the money, if you'll forgive the pun.

DStu - Another superb post from you. Cheers.  This line summarizes the issue beautifully:

Quote
I think, coming from rinksworks thread it really seems somehow wrong to let you play $5 cards for $4, but when you want to do this you are so limited in your strategy that is is not a big deal

I think given the analysis from DStu and Qvist, I'll bump the price to 4$. Play test it and see how it goes.

Much obliged, for this, thank again.

Have you ever played Magic?  There was a card that worked much like Summon : "Destroy target creature.  The destroyed creature's controller reveals cards from the top of his or her deck until he reveals a creature, then he puts that creature into play under his control."  A mechanic called creature tokens pretty much let you cheat around the limitation that would have you hitting runts accidentally when you want to get your "5$" creature, so it worked very similarly.  I didn't like it, you had to use very specific counterstrategies to deal with it.  Summon seems problematic because those counterstrategies don't even seem to exist.  This card might be testing well within your set but if your interested in mixing other sets at all you're going to have problems.  Summon on the board would make 5's like Minion automatic mirrors.  Embassy, mirror.  Expand? Mirror. 

I don't really like the card, even at 4$.  I think terminal is the best answer.  I think you can reward healthy use of the card by removing the +action and adding a quirky "If you chose treasure, +1 action.  If you chose action, +1$".  That forces you to buy villages, diluting your deck to some degree, making things ok.  It's slightly underpowered that way, but I'm just trying to point in the direction that makes the card more of a Scheme and less of a Polymorph.  It could be balanced with the second option being 2$ (more likely than not, actually.)  Or you could add +buy to either option, maybe make it 2$, or add an estate option with a benefit.  There's several directions you could go.



Land grab looks fine.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2011, 10:06:22 pm »
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I should note that I am really grateful for all your help pops, so I don't want this post to come across as ungrateful of your advice:

It complements Minion to be sure, but not that much, it essentially adds one more Minion for 4$. And really after you buy more than one you get diminishing returns out of it.True, you can scatter more Summons in there, but some of the time you just Summon a Summon, which means in the end all you do is eventually tutor one Minion. And now you paid 8$ to get to it (or maybe 12$ who knows). And because you discard to fire each Summon, you are now possibly in danger of killing your Minion engine entirely.

So the most cost-effective way is just to buy one...well congrats you added one more Minion for 4$ and you probably bought it on a turn you didn't have 5$, and early on it let you play one Minion you didn't normally run into...and as we all know Minion engines aren't that strong in the early going. It might allow you to add one more Minion when Minion is piled, but okay, you spend a late-buy to acquire just that. And really Minion is one of the best examples for Summon. It does work really well with it.

Again, I feel really strongly that making it terminal destroys it's usage. It would be often dead on the board. It has marginal utility, because you have to get the actions on the stack and then what you wind up drawing is probably something that just puts actions on the stack (sometimes not of course, but once you add more than action card to summon, you create a randomization scenario that isn't that strong). Making it terminal, kills a fun card, just kills it. It doesn't work that well with engines, even rink discovered this is so. It works, but not as effectively as really just acquiring more of the engine itself. It's real elegance and utility is to summon one powerful card for you.

Actually it's a superb BM-enabler, more than an engine-enabler. Because in a BM+Smithy set up, it can ensure the Smithy fires very often (especially early which is when BM likes to dominate anyway). It tested well when put to this task. One Embassy+one Summon would do well to support Big Money, but I am not sure it would be broken, just effective.

So far, I've seen that Summon is not that great a card to fuel a good engine, because you'd probably rather have the engine card itself. Because usually the cards of the engine itself are better than just tutoring for one piece of the engine. You see your engine card is going to probably keep some of those cards your Summon is going to discard just getting to your engine. (Early in the game for example, that gold can go bye-bye into the discard pile and you won't see it for a few turns, you would have seen it however if you'd just stuck to your engine).

The only real argument I can see against it, is I should govern it somehow so it can't tutor a card that costs more than 5$. That is something I'm willing to concede, but I think making it terminal is no fun at all. The other strong criticism I need to accept is that the "summon treasure" portion is an atrophied limb. It's almost NEVER used, and therefore not really necessary. It helps you only when you do follow the Summon+1 attack tactic, because I guess you can handle the collision of the two by simply tutoring a treasure card.  It's like a weak consolation prize when that happens. I could lose that portion of it and not shed a tear.

I think I can make it work as a non-terminal card though and I'll use this next wave of testing to see if I am right.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 10:23:43 pm by ChaosRed »
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plasticbrain

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2011, 11:42:46 pm »
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@ChaosRed: i feel your pain, man. but Farming Village is the closest comparison to Summon, and it doesn't let you choose what you find, but costs 1 more than Summon. on your side, is the fact that Farming Village is not terminal either, but against you is that it's worse and costs more. what about having what Summon finds dependent on the type of card you discard for it? so, you still have some choice, but it'll depend on what's in your hand when you play it, and basically becomes a trade-up. just an idea. this would limit early shenanigans as well. good luck! keep it non-terminal!
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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2011, 11:48:49 pm »
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I thought you were going to raise the cost to 4$ and add no other penalty.  I misunderstood.  Forced discard is exactly the kind of thing that can balance the card.

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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2011, 12:59:09 am »
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Thanks guys, appreciate the support as always, to close the loop on a few items, here is the Summon I will be play testing and here is also the final Land Grab (with new art and the slightly revised text to accommodate King's Court and Throne Room):


I've moved both cards to the beta thread. Meanwhile, I post a new 4$ card report, shortly.
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dondon151

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2011, 01:07:34 am »
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I gotta say, I liked the previous art for Land Grab better  :(

Oh, also, have you considered renaming the card to "Land Run" or "Land Rush?" Apparently, looking up "land grab" on Wikipedia redirects you to that page instead. Granted, it's a historical phenomenon restricted to the expanding United States, and it may not be the same as the original intended meaning, but I think it's a good thematic correlation.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2011, 01:13:44 am »
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I gotta say, I liked the previous art for Land Grab better  :(

Oh, also, have you considered renaming the card to "Land Run" or "Land Rush?" Apparently, looking up "land grab" on Wikipedia redirects you to that page instead. Granted, it's a historical phenomenon restricted to the expanding United States, and it may not be the same as the original intended meaning, but I think it's a good thematic correlation.

Interesting comment! I can indeed consider a rename for the card. Land Rush is nice, because sometimes you do actually "rush" the card early, in an attempt to 3-pile Dutchies, Land Grabs and Estates. It was too slow when we tested it, but it certainly has a nice ring to it. Loved the comment about the art too, thanks for that. Although I want to see the new version printed out first to truly decide. What a card looks like as a JPG and what it looks like printed out and sleeved can be really different.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2011, 01:15:44 am »
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AUCTION

GRADE:  B
RATING: 1.07 +/- 0.1
RATING POSITION: 12th out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 12th out of 25


BEST COMBO:
Well this combo was a no-brainer. In fact, really Auction is kind of made for a Silver Vein deck, (it's often a pain in the butt in Province decks).

ASSESSMENT:
A non-terminal trasher has to get everyone's eyes open. You can trash and you can keep going with your turn! And hey, it gives you +2$ to your buy phase by inserting a silver into your hand. Well come on ChaosRed the card is practically broken.

But of course, it really isn't, because it trashes but it does not condense. It replaces what you trash with a Silver. Which is pretty damn cool in turns 3-7, and pretty much a pain in the rear after that. In fact, the best way to play Auction was to buy it early and then find a way to trash the card or set the card aside once you hit the middle rounds.

It's also pretty slow, trashing one card and replacing it will a Silver isn't really a great way to consolidate a tight deck.

I gave the card a "B" because it blends well with the expansion's theme, it's a nifty little card in the early rounds and overall it tested fairly well. It wound up smack-dab in the middle in terms of both card rating and card popularity.

I can't give it an "A", because, well it isn't particularly bold or interesting.

RECOMMENDATION:
The card stays as is, with just new art.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
Here's the variant with new art work only and some minor tweaks to the text. Feel free to discuss, I have the game logs of this card, so I know how it performed the way it did and why, so if you are curious ask, otherwise, I'll move on to the next card report.

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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2011, 12:11:59 pm »
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Auction is tha ultimate torturer counter.


Seems fine.  The second art requires a rename, while the art is good it does not look like an auction.  "Traveller's trade" meshes with the mechanics of the card, but might sound kind of awkward.  "Trusty Dealer" suggests that the man with the pots can always be counted on to give you the same price, one silver.
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dondon151

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2011, 04:53:22 pm »
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Small wording issue: as per Trading Post, Bureaucrat, and Explorer, it should be "Gain a Silver card," instead of "Gain a silver." Trading post and Bureaucrat say "... card; put it into your hand," and Explorer says "... card, putting it into your hand."

You also trash cards "from" your hand. Chapel, Trading Post, etc. use this wording.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2011, 05:02:04 pm »
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Small wording issue: as per Trading Post, Bureaucrat, and Explorer, it should be "Gain a Silver card," instead of "Gain a silver." Trading post and Bureaucrat say "... card; put it into your hand," and Explorer says "... card, putting it into your hand."

You also trash cards "from" your hand. Chapel, Trading Post, etc. use this wording.

Thanks for this, I like to get the wording as consistent as possible. Cheers.

pops, I think you are right, renaming the card is probably a good idea. I tried to find good art that represented an auction, and all I could find was the original black and white line drawing and I wanted to find something in color. Let me see what I can come up with.

EDIT:

Okay here's the revision based on both of your feedback:

« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 05:07:08 pm by ChaosRed »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2011, 05:21:18 pm »
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GYPSY

GRADE:  B
RATING: 1.03 +/- 0.1
RATING POSITION: 14th out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 10th out of 25


BEST COMBO:
No surprise that Gypsy worked best with cards that put +2 Actions on the stack. And of course this tactic had all the problems Village+Smithy runs into. The one advantage was Gypsy helped your hand the next turn, (which turns out to be really strong, I guess people who love Wharf know this).

ASSESSMENT:
This expansion is pretty starved for card draw. It has other neat tricks it can do, but getting a lot of cards in your hand is not easy with this expansion. The expansion has lots of ways to keep your deck dense and ways to mitigate the risk of drawing green. In that context, Gypsy did pretty well.

I think you can make an argument Gypsy is only worth 3$, but at 4$ it did okay for us. It was purchased slightly above average and performed just slightly below average, but neither statistic was alarming. +2 Cards stinks as a primary ability, it's really only +1 Card, because the first card was the card you would have had in the first place if you hadn't bought Gypsy.

But starting your next turn with 6 cards instead of 5 is massive, getting a +VP along the way is just gravy, but there were a few games these tokens made the difference. It's amazing how just having a +3 token advantage can really swing a Province game.

I gave this card a "B", because it is just a bit underwhelming for 4$, and of course it steals all its creative thunder from Seaside (apologies, what can I tell you I am just a fan so lots of my cards are going to be derivative). But overall the card did well, it was well liked, it looks cool and I think it deserves a "B".

RECOMMENDATION:
The card stays as is, no changes at all...

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
Nothing changes, the card stays the same:

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Arya Stark

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2011, 07:11:20 pm »
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love the gypsy pic, very pretty!
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #88 on: November 25, 2011, 01:10:50 am »
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Thanks Arya, yeah I think the card looks pretty cool too.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #89 on: November 25, 2011, 01:21:48 am »
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ARCHITECT

GRADE:  F
RATING: 0.6 +/- 0.15
RATING POSITION: 25th out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 22nd out of 25


BEST COMBO:
No real rhyme or reason to this combo being successful. In fact this "combo" only had a 50% win rating across 4 games, it's just that this happens to be the best rating of them all (as Architect had a DEPLORABLE win-loss rating).

ASSESSMENT:
This was just a dreadful card. The card was meant to have three utilities, (none of which were really worth 3$). The fact it was versatile though, was supposed to accommodate for the fact that each option was weak. Turns out, those kinds of cards are lousy.

This was the WORST rated card of the lot. And by the end, we had to force ourselves to buy it just to get it some more test data. It was hated and my wife loathed the artwork too, so I'm even changing that.

RECOMMENDATION:
I am going to completely change this awful card.

Since Summon is getting moved to 4$, I elect this card to be moved down to 3$. I also recommend the card get some serious revision. I want to keep the fact that card does three things (none of them spectacular), but make each option just a little more broad. One of the utilities is now a reaction.


SUGGESTED VARIANTS
Complete revamp, similar utility as before (just broadened) and a whole new reaction:


It's the reaction ability I worry about most, how broken is it? Like Tunnel it fires after the discard, so there's no danger of repetitive reactions. My worry though is that you can build a deck to break this pretty easily. Things like Embassy or Inn can focus purely on getting a lot of VP. But I also wanted that to be the appeal of the card, as in, provide an extremely compelling alternate-victory route.

One solution is I can set Architect aside as part of the discard reaction, then put Architect into the discard pile at the end of your turn. But maybe I don't need to?

I do know people have depleted the gold pile with Tunnel (and people have depleted Silver with Traders), so I worry the potential for massive VP-gain is too silly really for me to keep the card the way it is. I can test to be sure, but if any of you feel it's not worth testing (that it is easily broken), then I can adjust accordingly before I test.

Much obliged for any and all advice, as always.

One option is to provide a "gain estate" instead of a +1VP. Although this is significantly more hassle, for 3-pile strategies it could be quite useful.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:23:53 am by ChaosRed »
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Fangz

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #90 on: November 25, 2011, 04:34:41 am »
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That VP gain reaction is just sickeningly powerful. Think about it - Tunnel is balanced by the fact that its effect (gaining golds) works against it, by making it more difficult to chain together combos to discard it. In comparison newArchitect also lets you trash, creating a lean, mean VP scoring machine that never bogs down. Imagine it in a double tactician engine. Or just with hunting party.

Estate gaining is too weak though. I'd suggest duchy-gain as an reaction, and increase the cost to $4.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2011, 01:00:12 pm »
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Estate gaining is too weak though. I'd suggest duchy-gain as an reaction, and increase the cost to $4.

I find that strong, but thank you for the feedback.

I think you are right about the VP accrual being too easily exploited, but the Estate-gain function would be part of a 3-pile strategy, that wanted a fast accrual of green. It is weak, but I think in some cases you'd reach for it, especially in this expansion where some cards want green, and other cards let you put green to the side.

Alternatively, I could award an Estate and a VP, as in "you may gain an Estate, if you do +1VP".

I am looking for a way to deplete the Estates, it's a useful thing to do when combined with other cards in the set.


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Tydude

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2011, 01:30:46 pm »
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Well, this doesn't have to do with the estates, but what do you think of this variant?

You may trash a card. If you do, choose one: (+1 Card; +1 Action) or +1 VP.
When you trash this, you may reveal it. If you do, +2 VP.

The idea is you can choose to either self replicate or get the victory point. I didn't know how to express it without making it seem like there was three choices, so I put parentheses.
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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #93 on: November 25, 2011, 03:10:28 pm »
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Actually, even the main effect is at risk for causing VP loop games.  It's not that +card +trash is stronger than Monument's 2$, that's certainly not the case, but trashing a card encourages slim comboing decks, +$ encourages buying Provinces once the 2's start adding up.  Both players could end up looping the card even if you take the reaction off completely.


Tying it to the estate stack is a good idea, it goes with the set and puts a light at the end of the tunnel.

Give it a stabley effect with estates, gain estates on the reaction.  Let it gain VP, then become invisible by stabling



EDIT: Ok I thought about it, and though trashing does encourage looping (provided +buy is available) it's not powerful enough to compete with greening so the main effect isn't issue.  The reaction definitely, definitely is though.


By the way, gypsy might be balanced but it is very, very, very powerful.  Please test it with Big Money, because I see it shining in Big Money more so than in a village deck.  If you try to recreate a village wharf engine with the card, the VP chip is going to feel worse than a card because it doesn't help you assemble a dense engine quickly.  In Big Money the VP chip, I'd expect, feels better than a card because you've less need for momentum and love a slower game with a thickened greening phase engines suffer more from greening than money does, as a rule.  The card looks like Gypsy BM bot beats Smithy BM bot which is cause for concern.  It might be at Envoy strength which is fine - a heavy BM threat but one that loses to a good engine.  But definitely don't limit yourself to engine testing on gypsy, that's not going to be its strength.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 03:59:22 pm by popsofctown »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #94 on: November 25, 2011, 06:34:54 pm »
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Thanks again, all of you. Nice idea you have there Ty, worth considering.

Pops, I did test Gypsy with Big Money, it did fairly well, but like most BM decks, it wasn't that hard to defeat either. It does do well, and I never did test BM+Smithy vs. BM+Gypsy, that's a worthy test.

I'm considering this now for Architect, making it tied to Estates, but changing it now to a reaction on gain, rather than discard. Makes it a tolerable defense against curse attacks. I am tempted to add a +buy to the card now:



I think that's not the most superb card for 3$, but since it can trash, earn VP and fight off Curses (albeit by slogging you with Estates), I think it has some  utility.

What do you think? Did I take it too far in the other direction and now the card is too weak?

My understanding is that like Trader, you can only reveal at the moment you gain, so you could only gain 1 Estate on any gain. I had thought of revising it to:

When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash the gained card, gain an Estate, put it into your hand.

This would ensure, you really could only get 1 Estate, and would also put the card into your hand (where you could perhaps discard it, or trash it, if the reaction happened on an opponent's turn, or you gained the card during the action phase).
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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2011, 07:00:26 pm »
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I've definitely gotten double silvers off of Cache and seen Mountebank do so as well.  Copying Trader's formatting and tacking "to your hand" on the end should work just fine.

The card is weak as printed.  Neither mode is even as good as terminal silver, which the rather versatile Steward offers.

Let it interact with estates like Baron does, it will feel be a funner card that way.  It minimizes the awkward period where you have something that makes estates good or something that gains estates, but not both, and makes it playable on any board.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2011, 09:22:20 pm »
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Yeah, I am cool with getting two Estates off a double-gain (like on a Mountebank attack), just not being able to reveal on the same gain endlessly. I don't think Traders functions that way, so I should be okay.

Agree about putting the Estate into your hand, makes it stronger. Not sure I want a Baron interaction, but you might be on to something there. Interacting with a victory card specifically does make sense for the card.
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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #97 on: November 25, 2011, 09:50:08 pm »
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I don't mean that as specifically as discard for money.  Just some sort of victory card interaction.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #98 on: November 26, 2011, 12:24:54 am »
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Well I can add another option, this one essentially turns Architect into a Lab if you have an Estate in your hand:



It might be too much, 3 options and a reaction, might mean that new third option should really be a Village and not a Lab.
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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #99 on: November 26, 2011, 01:11:28 am »
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nah, it's perfect.  It's a stabley effect like I recommended.  The third options lets you pretend that both the Architect and Estate are cantrips.  That's fine as a versatility option.  Spice Merchant does the same thing while trashing a copper, which accomplishes more, and it still has other options available.

It now draws as many cards as Horse Traders when attacked with a curse, but I think that will be fine, you need the strong incentive to keep the Estates in your deck.  Otherwise the reaction is a bad Watchtower (without in-set synergies, at least)
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