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ChaosRed

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Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« on: November 18, 2011, 03:28:02 pm »
+1



This is the second phase of a Dominion newbie developing his own fan variant. It is called Silver Lining. The second phase now comes after the first phase produced 100 test games and the results of those games were cataloged and analyzed. This is an exercise to help me learn the game's intricacy and balance and come to appreciate the difficulty of design in an elegant game such as DOMINION.

This thread is the "sequel" to the first round of beta-testing found here and the first round of peer-review found here.

Here are two other links related to the expansion:
For this thread, I am going to unveil one card at a time. Each card will have its rating and summary from the first phase of testing, and if necessary, it will discuss which revisions I feel are required for the second phase. The good news is most cards won't need revising as they tested fine. Others might just have small cosmetic revisions or small technical tweaks to the rules. Some cards will require a complete overhaul.

Comments, feedback and most of all criticisms are welcome. Rip this expansion apart, the more critical review I receive, the better the expansion will be.

THEME/ FLAVOR OF THE SET
Here are some of the set's themes and here is generally how the set plays:
  • SILVER - This set's central theme revolves around making silver a useful card. There are victory cards that score on the acquisition of silver and other cards that require a silver to ignite an ability.
  • MIDDLE ROAD - One of the set's themes is it allows you to win via the "middle road", that is to say by acquiring silver instead of gold and acquiring dutchies instead of provinces (along with other VP routes of course to make up for the point difference).
  • FAST GAMES - In general, this is a fast set. Games usually play slightly faster than other DOMINION sets. There are exceptions to this, but overall most games are over in 18 turns or so.
  • GREEN EARLY - The set encourages and rewards greening early, and can often augment greening early with victory tokens.
  • PILING - There are numerous mechanisms and combinations which allow you to pile certain cards.
  • NUMEROUS VICTORY PATHS - The set often provides numerous ways to win, when you combine the fact you can green early, pile quickly and that 'middle road' tactics are well-supported the way you can win is often diverse.
  • SYNERGY - The set has obvious synergy, many of the cards are clearly designed to work with one another.

WEAKNESSES
The set has weaknesses, it's a very "basic" set that does not require a great deal of skill to master (one of the artifacts of the synergy is some of the combinations that work well are obvious). Another weakness is that almost all the curse attacks in the set are weaker than curse attacks in other expansions. Curse attacks are still viable, (i.e. they still work and are effective), but overall they are not as strong as the genuine curse attacks in real expansions.

Also the set is a mish-mash of ideas that are often borrowed from the other expansions. It has Duration cards like Seaside and it borrows both the discard-mechanic of Tunnel and the "on-gain" mechanic of Ill-Gotten Gains for some of its variants. So it is a highly derivative set. I can accept this, because its my first attempt at designing these, and because I think fan variants in general are often derivative. Also using all the "known tricks" of DOMINION allowed me to produce the kind of synergy in the set I was looking for.

I will write more on this thread in the coming days.

I say this often, but just to be clear, I know this is not of prolific interest to others, but using this space to document my notes and findings is really useful and if it elicits comments and feedback by doing so, so much the better.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 03:52:08 pm by ChaosRed »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2011, 04:57:34 pm »
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CARD GRADING
(Post v1 Testing)

The following is an assessment of each card in the expansion post-testing. Each card will get a grade and that grade will indicate whether a revision is necessary. I will post one card at a time and wait for comments (if any) and then make final revisions, push the card to a Silver Lining v2 - Beta thread.

Once all 25 cards have completed the process, I will test again, actively working to bring the set to completion by the end of the second set.

Here is how each section in the report breaks down:

GRADE:

A simple grading system, that does not judge the POWER of the card, but rather the overall balance, utility and design. It breaks down this way:

  • A - Card tested well, seems perfectly balanced with great utility and cost, will stay the same for future tests. The only caveat will be minor cosmetic changes or semantic changes to the card's overall text.
  • B - Card tested well and was generally a well-balanced card. Card's that rate "B" might have some red flags in testing and might have very minor adjustments, but those adjustments will likely be cosmetic, semantic or just the tiniest of revisions.
  • C - This is the grade I give cards I am unsure about. Testing might have revealed some issues with the card, or the card seemed just a tad too powerful or weak, but I am unsure just what to do with the card.
  • D - This card had some utility at rare times, but was mostly broken in some way or clearly needs an adjustment.
  • F - This card failed. It was disliked, or was utterly broken and needs a complete overhaul.

RATING
This is the card's rating after the 100 games of testing. It is a fairly crude formula that was used to calculate it. It was a hybrid of the card's win-loss rating, (with a small bonus if the card was in both winning and losing decks, so it would not score entirely neutral if that happened). It also gave a very small bonus to the most popular cards (the assumption cards that were purchased often, must have had utility).

The ratings are expressed like this: 1.0 +/- 0.11.

1.0 is essentially "perfectly balanced" while 2.0 is a card that "always wins and never loses" and 0.0 is a card that "never wins and always loses". The variance is a crude calculation to give me a range of error. The more games the card was active in, the less the variance will be. In the above example, the card could be rated as low 0.89 or as high as 1.11.

RATING POSITION
Denotes where out of the 25 cards this particular card's rating ranked. A card that was the WORST ranked card gets a rating of 25 out 25, while the BEST card in the set gets a rating of 1 out of 25.

POPULARITY POSITION
Denotes where out of the 25 cards this particular card's popularity ranks. Popularity is calculated as getting one point every time a player bought or gained at least one copy of the card of their own volition.

BEST COMBO
This highlights which card combination produced the highest percentage of victory for the card. It is a simple calculation of win-percentage of this card combined with all other buys/gains it was combined with in a winning/losing deck.

ASSESSMENT
This is some general notes from my wife and I (who play tested with me) about the card's utility, value and general balance.

RECOMMENDATION
This is the summary of what I recommend I do the card, it usually breaks down into whether I keep the card as is, adjust the card very slightly (usually just technical changes to the rules/verbiage of the card, or whether I completely overhaul the card.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
If the recommendation required a small adjustment or a complete overhaul, I'll list the change(s) here. There are sometimes just one variant to look at, other times several. Comment is most welcome on which variant you feel will produce the best results or appear to be the most balanced.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 04:21:38 pm by ChaosRed »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2011, 06:12:13 pm »
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Servant's Quarters

GRADE: F
RATING: 0.77 +/- 0.14
RATING POSITION: 23rd out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 21st out of 25


BEST COMBO:
It's pretty easy to see why this was the best combination Servant's Quarters was involved in. The Emporium can reveal the Servant's Quarters and decide to put aside the bad card, or discard it to gain a card. Since Emporium puts actions onto the stack, having a filter and a possible card-draw in one play is a pretty decent cantrip.

ASSESSMENT:
This is a failed card. This assessment is made knowing it's a 2-Cost Reaction card, meaning its utility is meant to be limited, but even with these factors it still failed and was a miserable card.

+1 Card is simply an unffective and useless ability, as BOTH a prime ability and a secondary ability (the discard bonus).

The card also suffers from having three basic compartments, and only the last ability (the full-defense of an attack) has any real utility at all.

The card also had a high-tendency to go completely unbought and indeed we often had to FORCE ourselves to buy it, just to test it, (which generally signals a disliked, dysfunctional card).

RECOMMENDATION:
Rename the card "Servant", it's a lighter, tighter name for a card that is essentially a low-priced utility card that is easily acquired. Change the image to artwork rather than a photograph.

Keep the main defensive ability, it suits the theme of the card and keeps two defensive cards in the expansion.

Change the primary ability and secondary ability to have more synergy and ability.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
The current variant on the table for review for this card is this:




« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 04:37:14 pm by ChaosRed »
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chesskidnate

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2011, 08:24:08 pm »
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1st one seems best. The second one seems like it would be ok by itself with +actions and just devastating with discard effects like warehouse or minion. The first one alleviates this problem by only giving +1$ when discarded and although it has decent self synergy, it wont be very easy to make a deck around them. The third one seems a bit too weak, sure it's versatile but even if you manage to discard it with another one and take 2cards, I think you still did only as good as a moat. The first one doesn't seem incredibly powerful but probably the right amount of utility for a 2-cost card. It does, however seem to have self-confliction since you may want to discard it in response to a discard attack but it may be better just to use it a moat. Also, what happens if you discard this on an opponents turn?
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2011, 09:03:10 pm »
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I rather like the first variant myself, but you bring up a very interesting rule question.

To answer you question:

Also, what happens if you discard this on an opponents turn?

I assume the +1$ goes on the stack? Kind of like a Duration card, the 1$ kicks in at the start of your turn? It's a good question, since no other "on discard" trigger has ever put money on the stack and the rules probably don't support how that works.  It makes me realize gaining +1$ on a discard might not work.

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment, much appreciated!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 09:08:35 pm by ChaosRed »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2011, 09:14:58 pm »
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Maybe it needs to be worded something like "When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do: if it is your turn, +$1; otherwise set it aside and at the start of your next turn discard it and +$1."

(First sentence matches Tunnel.)
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2011, 11:07:44 pm »
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Maybe it needs to be worded something like "When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do: if it is your turn, +$1; otherwise set it aside and at the start of your next turn discard it and +$1."

(First sentence matches Tunnel.)

Nice, cheers.

Perhaps something like this?

When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, at the start of your next Buy phase, +$1

It is very similar, but just a tad shorter.
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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 11:13:54 pm »
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I don't see any reason to use awkward rule bending.  Just stick with plus-cards but amp it up.

Servant:

Discard a card.  +3 cards.
Reaction : when you discard this, you may reveal it.  If you do, +2 cards.

Hey cool, it combos with itself.  Still balanced though IMO, comboing once makes it a smithy variant, thats fine.
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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 11:15:28 pm »
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Waaait maybe I'm miscounting and it goes to councilroom with the combo.

Discard a treasure, then
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 11:21:01 pm »
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Maybe it needs to be worded something like "When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do: if it is your turn, +$1; otherwise set it aside and at the start of your next turn discard it and +$1."

(First sentence matches Tunnel.)

Nice, cheers.

Perhaps something like this?

When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, at the start of your next Buy phase, +$1

It is very similar, but just a tad shorter.


A problem with that is that it can be discarded during the buy phase via Venture, and then you have to wait until next turn for your +$1.

I also think it needs to specifically say what to do with the card until then if it's not your turn. Duration cards get away with not saying because there is a general rule for all Duration cards. Unless you want to add a rule that says something like "If a card reacts to gives you +$, +Actions or +Buys (possibly +Cards, depending if you want it to work like a Council Room or a Caravan) when it's not your turn, set the card aside. Discard it and get the bonus at the start of your next turn." But unless you're going to have this mechanic for several cards, it's probably best to just have it on the card.

Edit: But maybe popsofctown is right and it's best to save messing with your $, Action and Buy stacks for when it's your turn.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 11:23:30 pm by Jimmmmm »
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2011, 12:36:10 am »
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Yeah point taken, +$ on a discard reaction is messy. Let me go back to the drawing board with this, thanks guys.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2011, 04:30:28 pm »
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Here's the variant I came up. I pushed the Moat-draw on the discard effect (which should combo nicely with other cards). I took away the full-defensive reaction to accommodate for the fact the discard-reaction is fairly strong:



You can click the card for a larger version if you are having a hard time reading.

I also added a new calculation to the original card report. Each card report will now feature a section highlighting which card it successfully combined with most.

I think the new variant has the potential to combine with other cards quite successfully now, but it does mean my expansion has only one full-defensive card, but I might look at providing a full-defense on another more-expensive card to accommodate that deficiency.
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2011, 04:39:59 pm »
+1

My Inn feels the sudden need to be staffed with a Servant or two.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2011, 04:52:31 pm »
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My Inn feels the sudden need to be staffed with a Servant or two.

Hehehe, yeah it's strong when on the board with any card that discards frequently. It would work fairly well with Cellar even. Without a strong discard companion, it's a pretty gimped Cellar. I don't think it combos that well with itself, because you need a +action source somewhere.

Is it too strong though? Getting a hand advantage from a discard is pretty easily exploited with the right companion, but maybe that's okay?
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 05:08:37 pm »
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Without a strong discard companion, it's a pretty gimped Cellar. I don't think it combos that well with itself, because you need a +action source somewhere.
It depends what kind of deck you're building. It's worse than Cellar for your standard cantrip engine deck (such as a Lab deck), but it's probably better for a Big Money deck.
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popsofctown

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2011, 06:14:40 pm »
+1

It looks great.  Inn is an edge case.  I think it's balanced
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2011, 12:32:47 am »
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That card looks fun, though I have no idea whether it's balanced at $2 or not. It's comparable to both Cellar and Moat, but quite distinct. I like it.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got here, but I'm pretty busy lately and probably won't check in every day for a bit. I'll try to add feedback when I get the chance.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2011, 01:34:12 pm »
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BAILEY

GRADE: D
RATING: 0.83 +/- 0.11
RATING POSITION: 20th out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 14th out of 25


BEST COMBO:
Actually, this card rarely combined well with any card, because despite its popularity, it was never consistently bought to combine with other cards. Also the card didn't have that great of a Win/Loss record to begin with. This combo at least had some synergy to it, as the Villa often used the +buy to get more Victory cards, or used the trash to get rid of Copper. But even this combo was rarely spectacular or effective.

ASSESSMENT:
This is a failed card. Although it did not fail as badly as Servant's Quarters (and was purchased more often), the card was often purchased for its defensive ability alone. Also the card has choices, but none were strong. Even trashing one card, just simply didn't jump you fast enough (especially since the set had other more elegant ways of dealing with cak in your hand). It shined most when it stopped a devastating attack, so I kept the full defensive reaction. It was really the key aspect of the card that truly shined.

RECOMMENDATION:
Keep the card name but update the card's art.

I switched this card, so that it can really shine in those early rounds. I took the +buy feature out, so that other +buy cards in the set can be even more desired. This card's clear intent now is to push your money up in the early going, trashing copper/estates for a +2$ bump. That's nice, (and maybe too nice). Of course, it goes counter to some of the other strategies in the set that LIKE Copper and Estates, but it becomes a relatively nice BM-support card and allows you to smite the Curse you picked up on that turn you failed to draw the Bailey.

The card is quite useful in turns 3-6, and then less so after that (other than a defensive reaction). I think it might test okay like this. It's terminal, and quite handy early in the game.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
The current variant on the table for review for this card is this:



What do you think? Is the power about right for the cost?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 08:08:46 pm by ChaosRed »
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2011, 01:50:59 pm »
+1

My gut reaction is that it's probably too strong. Compare it to Moat. +$2 and trash a card, or +2 cards? I would either remove the reaction or remove the "you may" clause, so that it's just, "+$2, trash a card from your hand". Speaking of which, it should say "trash a card from your hand" instead of just "trash a card" or "trash a card in your hand".
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ChaosRed

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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2011, 02:01:00 pm »
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It should say "from your hand", thanks for that. You might be right on the balance/cost, I worry it is just a tad too much.

It is stronger than Moat in the early rounds, but less so later in the game. We found in our testing that a single-card trash wasn't effective, without some kind of bonus for the trashing, even at a 2$ cost.

In fact, I'd take this card over it:



This card's rating soared, it was one of the strongest cards we tested, but the original Bailey did not. It had a very poor rating and a very poor win/loss record. So I was looking to give Bailey a boost, I may have gone too far, as it does shine above Moat in the early rounds.
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2011, 03:21:59 pm »
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Let's see, as an Action, it does one of two things:

+$1 if you don't trash anything. That's a pretty poor card. It's a Copper that eats an action.

or

+$2 and trash a card from your hand. Early on, that's nice. I'd compare this to Moneylender. Moneylender gives more money, but restricts you to trashing Copper. Bailey can trash anything, but for less money. Bailey also will give you at least the +$1 when you don't have anything to trash. But the difference between a Gold and a Silver is big, and you'll hopefully be using your actions on something better than +$1, so I think Moneylender is probably stronger.

However, Bailey also has the reaction ability. I'm not sure how much that helps it in pricing. If you're only using the card for its reaction ability, it might as well cost $2 like Moat. If the reaction is useless, I'd probably price the rest of the card at $3. Together, I think I'd still say it's a $3 card, but I'm far from confident on that assessment.
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2011, 04:35:06 pm »
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I'd remove the dollar reward for trashing a card.  It's the straw on the camel's back making it too strong, and it's not a very interesting choice when you think about it.  You don't need a dollar to convince you to trash a curse, the dollar makes trashing a copper a no-brainer instead of a thought-provoking decision like it is with Trader or Salvager, and it's too doubtful you'll be trashing anything else, the only other thing you could trash is an unplayable terminal, in which case, why are you wasting your action on a 2$ card instead of your superior terminal?
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2011, 08:08:16 pm »
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Thanks again all of you. You are right of course, +2$ and a single trash is just too much for 2$ when it comes with full defense. I need it to stay a full defensive card and I'd like it to stay at 2 for costing, so here's another variant that's toned down:



Provides the +2$ now only a discard, but can still allow a single trash and +1$. This actually makes it a nice hybrid of Servant and Pauper (the other 2$ in the set), so I am pretty keen on this one. What do you think? Seems like it is viable this way, if maybe a little boring.
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2011, 08:21:24 pm »
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It's a mini horse traders!

I like it fine.  It has a much deeper choice now, you're knocking something out of your hand either way, but do you want to remove that crap permanently or take a dollar right now?
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Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2011, 10:32:27 am »
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PAUPER'S FEAST

GRADE:  A
RATING: 1.24 +/- 0.07
RATING POSITION: 3rd out of 25
POPULARITY POSITION: 4th out of 25


BEST COMBO:
This card has several combinations with a very high win-rate. I had a lot to choose from. This combo was just slightly ahead of the others in percentage points. The reasoning here is that both cards set you up nicely for turns 4-6, trimming your deck superbly for a nifty tight configuration. The Pauper's Feast gets out of the way, while the Excursion is a non-terminal cantrip, so it isn't really harmful after its done the main task of trashing your Estates.

ASSESSMENT:
We loved this card. It turns out, even a gimped Chapel for 2$ is still a great card. In this case, the "mini-chapel" goes away and puts +1$ on the stack for you. Chapel is still far superior, but this is a handy card that became a "must buy" in the later rounds of testing.

I hesitate to give it an "A" as it rated just a bit high and the second portion of the card was rarely used. It is probably more accurately rated as a "B".

Still, it's nice to have a strong, popular 2 in your set and this one fit well. It is not as strong as Chapel (we tested it against Chapel to make sure), but still provides a nice trashing effect. Paupers go away too, which is really nice. So the one issue with Chapel is they linger long after their utility has worn out. One weakness in Pauper is that it is lousy in dealing with Curses. You have to keep it around to get the hit and when you do, it goes away (and usually by then you have another Curse to trash).

This card was so well-liked I'd really be foolish to alter it. It was never really ridiculously broken, it was very popular and compared favorably to it's sister-card in the real base set (coming in just slightly weaker than the mighty Chapel).

We gave it an "A" because we both loved this card.

RECOMMENDATION:
I am just making a cosmetic change with this one, trimming the name and updating the art work.

SUGGESTED VARIANTS
This is not really a variant, it's just an update to name and art:



Feel free to discuss the card if you like, otherwise I'll move quickly to the 3's.
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