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 11 
 on: November 11, 2019, 08:38:53 pm 
Started by A Drowned Kernel - Last post by A Drowned Kernel
I just read the setup link and it sounds like the designer actually takes this setup seriously.

It's been played here before under a "normal" heading, though I remember that people disputed that. I think "bastard" is more accurate for a game that has alignment changing roles and things like universal miller in it, but it is on the lighter end of bastard.

 12 
 on: November 11, 2019, 08:38:18 pm 
Started by Doom_Shark - Last post by Something_Smart
Belfry by Fragasnap
This is pretty cool, but I feel like the cases where it will draw anything other than a Treasure are very unlikely-- it may trash itself to draw necessary actions in the endgame, or it may trash Ruins, but beyond those, trashing Estates will probably net you nothing and trashing Coppers may net you some coin, kinda like a non-terminal Moneylender. It seems the primary strength is just the ability to non-terminally trash cards. I would play it if there weren't a better trasher on the board, but I probably wouldn't count on it for anything other than trashing. I don't think the cost is that off but it maybe should be priced at $4 to prevent people from opening double Belfry.

Dismiss by Aquila
This feels very abusable if you can find some way to get Golds in your deck without getting Silvers. If the only treasures in your deck are Coppers and Golds, assuming you have a Copper in hand when you play this, it's a double Peddler which is insane priced at $4, Villagers notwithstanding. Less troubling is the strategy where you buy nothing but Dismiss and some other terminal you'd like to play every turn (Mountebank, Wharf, Pirate Ship, etc.) and every hand with two Dismisses nets you a copy of your other terminal. It's a neat idea in the vein of Hunting Party, but as a trade-off for not increasing handsize you get massive control over what it finds. I think this ought to cost $5, at least.

Young Envoy by majiponi
This pretty much seems like a Smithy variant that wants an engine rather than big money. Seems pretty good in an engine, too, especially one with a bunch of non-terminals that it can draw, or one with powerful terminals that you only want one or two of, since you're very unlikely to miss those. Definitely pretty strong for a $4.

Cavern by mail-mi
Probably plays out very similarly to Envoy, if you assume the fifth card you would have drawn is a Silver which probably provides about as much coin as the discarded card. I do like that the opponent has to think a little harder than they do with Envoy, but I don't think this plays out that differently for the player. This might just be strongest in Big Money where it's just +4 Cards -$1 (assuming you reveal a Copper or Silver which both give you -$1 if discarded), better than Smithy if your money density's over $1/card but this is a $5 so that's justified. Not a card I'd fall in love with, probably not even one I'd usually play, but that's just my style. If played in an engine, it probably works best with $4 engine parts which provide the same coin as $5's when discarded but are way easier to get.

Herdsman by mandioca15
An anti-Hunting Party. Cute. Seems like it kinda snowballs in engines where the more of your deck you draw the more this will draw you, which is neat I guess as it probably requires another terminal draw (or a Lab, I suppose) to get off the ground. It's a lot more inconsistent, though. If I could stick with a conventional +Actions/+Cards engine with this on the board, I probably would. This does seem good in games where you're flooding yourself with a certain Treasure, though (Bureaucrat/Jack/Amulet/Trader/Lucky Coin, for instance).

Racketeer by spineflu
It feels unsatisfying to get all the cards that aren't of the type you're focusing on. That's my first instinct. If you play this in an engine, you're probably naming Action, making it probably dead (to you) or maybe drawing you a Treasure or two if you're lucky. If you play it in Big Money, you name Treasure, and again it's completely dead to you. While the attack is very strong, I understand why there are very few official attacks that give no benefit at all to the person who played them. Even if I did well with this card, I wouldn't feel I was doing well-- I would just feel my opponent was doing badly. You can use it as a Smithy, of course, but then it's just an expensive Smithy.

Florist by Frolouch
I think you've underestimated how good VP chips are, especially from a non-terminal card. Monument is terminal and gives you a single VP chip; this is non-terminal and in a deck built around it can easily give you 3 or 4. I can just imagine a nightmare scenario of a deck-drawing engine that uses something like Vault to discard all its Victory cards and then draws them all back with Florist, multiple times per turn, for 10+ VP's per turn while not changing the game state at all. This should cost at least $5, probably $6, so it's harder to spam them, but I don't see that alleviating the above problem, only making it slower to set up.

Farm Cellar by NoMoreFun
I like this, though I'm having a hard time to determine if it's appropriately priced. I feel like it must be, because a cantrip Cellar that's also sometimes a Lab has to be at least $5. This seems fantastic in slog-like games such as Curser-heavy ones, especially without trashing. However I feel like the price would probably prevent me from taking it in any other type of game, just because there are other $5's that would probably benefit my engine or Big Money more. It's also a cute counter to Fortune Teller and Rabble (and Bureaucrat and Ghost Ship, sort of).

Convulsion of Nature by pubby
This is definitely something I would pick up with a spare $2 without a better $2 buy, but I can't say it would make much of a difference in most games. Oracle/Wishing Well combos are obvious and extremely powerful, Vassal/Doctor/Pawn/the like might benefit somewhat, but most cards that draw, I'll be playing anyway whether or not I know what's on top of my deck. Jester/Swindler/Knights and other top-deck-targeting attacks would actually make this negative utility. Overall kinda funny, but probably not interactive enough for my liking.

Drift by DEGwer
This is just asking for people to make golden decks. Pretty much any board with a trasher and a +Buy can be used to make a 5-card deck that generates $12 with 2 buys, and buys a Province and a Drift, rinse and repeat. Beyond that, I guess it allows you to green earlier, which is cool but not that game-changing as you also have to spend some turns buying Drift. It neuters Cursers, to the point where I probably wouldn't play all but the strongest Cursers (Mountebank for instance would still be appetizing, but most probably wouldn't be worth allowing my opponent to nab 2VP for just $4).

Impressment by grep
This looks a lot like Elder... :o except instead of being terminal draw when it misses, it's a Workshop. This seems like the type of card that loves absolute cantrip spamming; it can gain more copies of itself, so eventually you can just flood your deck with them and with other cantrips, crossing your fingers for those moments when your Impressment reveals two actions and becomes a Lost City. This is cool, except that I don't really see another viable way to play this card, other than an expensive Workshop replacement in a makeshift Workshop/Gardens rush. Noting too that a Workshop (0 actions revealed) is better than a cantrip (1 action revealed), this seems like the only way to use its full strength is to spam your deck with actions and hope you get lucky.

Sawmill by [TP] Inferno
This is cool. Once again I'm drawn to the Gardens strat where you gain a Gardens unless you reveal a Victory card in which case you gain another Sawmill. But it works in an engine too... kinda. Your engine's not gonna love all that Silver. I feel like the best use of this is probably in an extremely strong engine where you can already draw most or all of your deck without too much trouble. With enough non-action cards in your deck, this can probably hit a decent balance of gaining you engine parts versus gaining you Silvers when you do hit an action. This seems like the type of card I'd buy and then regret, and then wonder how I could set things up to make it work. A lot of depth there, for sure.

Servants' Quarters by TheAgileBeast
Can I play this with pubby's Convulsion of Nature, hehe. Free points for people with more homogeneous decks? Encourages Big Money or a mono-engine like Lab, I guess. Makes all deck inspectors stronger (Sentry, Cartographer, Courtyard, Apothecary, even Scout). Beyond that, makes a very tight endgame kinda funny (if I buy this last Province I'll lose, unless I 360 noscope the top card of my deck...) but probably not satisfying for either player.

Mad Scientist by artless
Feels abusable, but I don't think it is. Just really swingy. Probably only good if you can get rid of starting Coppers (Estates are less likely to be a concern). Ideally, I'd want to use this in an engine where both parts are the same cost, because I'd much rather get a village and a terminal draw from this than two villages or two terminal draws. In most other scenarios, I don't think I'd ever pay $5 for it, honestly.

Ship Launch by segura
Funnily enough, I was reading about Renaissance today, and discovered that DXV tried this idea:
Quote
Start of turn, reveal top, +1 Card if Treasure. Some people liked this one. A runner-up.
I feel pretty similarly to that about it. I think it pushes you more toward a boring money strategy, but not that far, and otherwise it just will randomly give you extra cards. It's very unlikely that you could control this as you'd have to get a Treasure exactly 6 cards down at the end of your turn, but that's true of Piazza too, I think Piazza's just more interesting because the bonus is something you control by picking what actions are in your deck, rather than just plus some money.

Three-Cards Monte by Abel_K
A whimsical looter that junks at a very leisurely pace. If you can nix your Coppers (and maybe Estates) and make it so this thing only hits duplicates when it's a duplicate of an action you actually want, this seems very strong. The looting attack is certainly strong enough (compare with Cultist, which is better when you can chain it but way worse when you can't), and I think getting the Lab effect to not get stuck on Coppers would make this a very powerful, albeit unreliable, engine card.

Surveyor by scolapasta
This needs a clause for what to do with the other revealed cards, since I think DXV has intentionally avoided making people remember the order cards were in when revealed off your deck. Other than that, it pretty much just seems like a +1VP (or 2 if you're lucky) with some cycling that's mitigated by missing some shuffles. It's not clear what happens if you reveal multiple Victory cards, but I think you would get 1VP for each, because although Surveyor is discarded after you get the first VP, the other triggers were on the stack and still get resolved because the Victory card was revealed while it was still in play? Needs some rewording, I think. Other than that, feels pretty hard to control. Likely a good supplement to any sort of alt-VP strategy, otherwise probably too slow.

Clairvoyant by anordinaryman
Ooh, push your luck. Seems really good for a $3, given that it sifts if it fails to hit. I would probably always go for 4 cards, especially in an engine where if I miss I can put the card I really want to draw next to help keep my engine going even if I don't get the ridiculously strong +4 Cards effect. I think this needs to be at least $4, probably $5 (maybe with the failure condition buffed a bit, like discard any number and put the rest back in any order).

Preacher by FlyerBeast
This doesn't feel all that different from Chapel, honestly. The +$1 is very unlikely to help; the +1 Card will help, but you'll probably be trashing all your starting cards without much trouble anyway, and it's mitigated by the risk of revealing your other opening buy off your deck. Lategame this is a terminal Copper that may trash a card or two (revealing a Copper is risky lategame), not all that great, but better than the mostly dead Chapel at least. Is this worth $4? Probably, but I don't see games with it playing out that differently from Chapel games.


Winner: Sawmill by [TP] Inferno
Runner-up: Three-Cards Monte by Abel_K

 13 
 on: November 11, 2019, 08:36:01 pm 
Started by DatSwan - Last post by SpaceAnemone
Gotta say, I don't love you setting me up for tomorrow for essentially having the same thoughts as you...

Heh, sorry! I wasn't really looking at it that way, I was just trying to head off the most obvious criticism I could see coming my way from the likes of faust because of the point I'd been making... the expected criticism being that it's not necessarily fair to townread you for voting MiX when scum!you would not necessarily have known he was your buddy.

I really don't feel like there's a very big risk of Joth flipping town, so I'm okay with my townread on you just now :-)

 14 
 on: November 11, 2019, 08:14:17 pm 
Started by A Drowned Kernel - Last post by sudgy
well, I think for one, that it would be cooler to take this setup seriously because it seems cool though may be broken. But I'll go with the flow, of course

I'm willing to take it seriously as long as I still don't have to take it seriously spend much time on it.

 15 
 on: November 11, 2019, 07:59:27 pm 
Started by DatSwan - Last post by raerae
so like

joth > Eevee > faust >>> Galzria > raerae > Maxford >>> Joseph > Space > raptor > Me

I'm okay with joth and faust being red. I want Eevee and you to be the same colour because of that comment of MiX's that he was getting confused between the two of you.. I think that means there's a high chance you're both just town.

I'm okay with Galz being yellow. Maxford is tough.. he's new and smart, and if he's scum he'll have good people like Joth and faust advising him, so it's not impossible he's scum. I think Joth's scumslip is most likely with Joth scum and Maxford town, though. This is another good reason to solve the game only after we get Joth's flip!

I do think Raerae is town, though. She's been doing a lot of townie sensible cautioning of people (right back to disliking my D1 pass-list), and like me, she was on MiX with similar justifications (I think?) from early D2, well before Raptor brought forth his evidence.

It's true that we don't know whether the scumteam was certain that MiX was their buddy, in which case Raerae could just have been voting MiX as a possible mislynch, but I like her questions about who Joth targeted N1, and the MiX answer definitely didn't seem to be crafted to help the scumteam... except possibly in the very unlikely world in which Joth isn't scum. Could we just agree to suspect Raerae more if Joth doesn't flip scum, and then get on with lynching him because he's actually scum?

PPE 1

Gotta say, I don't love you setting me up for tomorrow for essentially having the same thoughts as you...

 16 
 on: November 11, 2019, 07:36:34 pm 
Started by DatSwan - Last post by SpaceAnemone
Space Count

jotheonah (4): raerae, Joseph2302, SpaceAnemone, LaLight
Eevee (1): jotheonah
raerae (1): faust
Not Voting (4): Galzria, Xxraptorslayer96, Maxford, Eevee

 17 
 on: November 11, 2019, 07:32:31 pm 
Started by DatSwan - Last post by SpaceAnemone
so like

joth > Eevee > faust >>> Galzria > raerae > Maxford >>> Joseph > Space > raptor > Me

I'm okay with joth and faust being red. I want Eevee and you to be the same colour because of that comment of MiX's that he was getting confused between the two of you.. I think that means there's a high chance you're both just town.

I'm okay with Galz being yellow. Maxford is tough.. he's new and smart, and if he's scum he'll have good people like Joth and faust advising him, so it's not impossible he's scum. I think Joth's scumslip is most likely with Joth scum and Maxford town, though. This is another good reason to solve the game only after we get Joth's flip!

I do think Raerae is town, though. She's been doing a lot of townie sensible cautioning of people (right back to disliking my D1 pass-list), and like me, she was on MiX with similar justifications (I think?) from early D2, well before Raptor brought forth his evidence.

It's true that we don't know whether the scumteam was certain that MiX was their buddy, in which case Raerae could just have been voting MiX as a possible mislynch, but I like her questions about who Joth targeted N1, and the MiX answer definitely didn't seem to be crafted to help the scumteam... except possibly in the very unlikely world in which Joth isn't scum. Could we just agree to suspect Raerae more if Joth doesn't flip scum, and then get on with lynching him because he's actually scum?

PPE 1

 18 
 on: November 11, 2019, 07:25:36 pm 
Started by DatSwan - Last post by Maxford
Maxford,who do you think is towny/scummy?

Scummy: joth, faust, Galzria, Lalight, Joseph

Neutral: raerae, Eevee

Towny:  Raptor, Space?

I am pretty uncertain about most of this. I don't want to be pushing the wrong lynch given this might be our second-to-last chance to lynch scum. Although saying this, I realize maybe we should lynch joth. There is a reasonable chance that he is scum, and at the same time, his flip probably has the highest information value, which will put us in the best position for our last potential chance to lynch scum.

 19 
 on: November 11, 2019, 07:22:08 pm 
Started by DatSwan - Last post by SpaceAnemone
Haha.. faust thinks Joth is town, and is now voting for Raerae?

I'm pretty sure Raerae is town, based on how much I agree with her voting history and general conduct.

I'm less sure about faust now, especially after the way he's engaged with me lately, but really I'd rather see Joth lynched first, because I think there's info to be gained from his flip.

 20 
 on: November 11, 2019, 07:19:01 pm 
Started by Doom_Shark - Last post by pubby
Hope I'm not too late! No worries if I am!



Quote
Preacher
$4 Action
-
+$1
Reveal any number of cards from your hand, then reveal the top card of your deck. Either trash all the revealed cards, or discard them.

I'd imagine this works well right at the beginning of the game, then progressively gets riskier to play but potentially more rewarding if you have a hand fulla' curses. Sort of like a safer Lookout, I suppose.

It's way, way too powerful. Chapel is already one of the best cards for trashing 4, but this card trashes 5 and gives money! Also I notice the reveal effect is rather swingy for a chapel-style card - if you reveal your opening buy turn 3 you're at a huge disadvantage.

You could make a cool card out of this idea if it only trashed 1 card at a time.

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