Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - rspeer

Filter to certain boards:

Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22]
526
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Isotropic
« on: June 20, 2011, 03:11:37 pm »
Yes it is legal. Donald X does his official card-testing on it, so he is absolutely fine with it.

What's this now? I don't think there have ever been cards on Isotropic that aren't published yet. This sounds like a mutated version of the fact (from the Isotropic FAQ) that Donald X helpfully provided the set of prototype artwork that he used for the Kingdom cards. (They all seem to be free images anyway, from places like Wikipedia, but it's nice that Donald himself picked them out.)

There is in fact a nonpublic version of isotropic with unpublished cards.

Okay, that's awesome.

527
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Isotropic
« on: June 20, 2011, 02:31:52 pm »
Yes it is legal. Donald X does his official card-testing on it, so he is absolutely fine with it.

What's this now? I don't think there have ever been cards on Isotropic that aren't published yet. This sounds like a mutated version of the fact (from the Isotropic FAQ) that Donald X helpfully provided the set of prototype artwork that he used for the Kingdom cards. (They all seem to be free images anyway, from places like Wikipedia, but it's nice that Donald himself picked them out.)

I'm not even nearly a lawyer, but I've used online game sites enough to speculate about the legality. In an alternate universe where Donald X didn't like Isotropic and felt like angering his biggest fan base, he could probably go after it for trademark infringement, because it titles itself "Online Dominion". But aside from that, Isotropic should be totally legal because you can't copyright the act of playing a particular game. You can only copyright the rules and what the game looks like, and Isotropic doesn't publish the rules and makes sure to look different from Dominion.

528
Game Reports / The Apothecary/Warehouse combo
« on: June 19, 2011, 05:14:22 pm »
First of all: You may have seen me logging on with something called BuyBorg. This is the first implementation of the Dominion AI I'm developing at http://github.com/rspeer/golem. It's called "BuyBorg" because it only decides what to buy, and needs a human to decide everything else. It's not necessarily that good yet.


Anyway, I'm playing a test game against BuyBorg and it opens Potion/Warehouse. The only Alchemy card on the board is Apothecary. I sigh at the bot's incompetence, assuming it's going to leave itself floundering with ineffective hands full of copper in a colony game. For myself I open Silver/Warehouse.


Second time through its deck, it buys an apothecary and another warehouse.


Third time through, it buys another apothecary and a gold. Fourth time, it buys a platinum. Soon it's drawing enough money to get a platinum or a colony on every turn, and it's got something like three colonies by the time I finally buy a platinum.


So getting my ass handed to me by my own glitchy bot has shown me that Apothecary/Warehouse can apparently be a strong enough combo to open with, something I hadn't thought of before.

529
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Game Selection
« on: June 18, 2011, 01:54:13 pm »
I usually avoid playing against people who decline any set.  I always avoid playing against people who set certain cards.  I do not mind it if someone bans a few nasty cards.  On the whole though random all the way.

I'm pretty much the same.

What do you guys think about playing people way below your lvl.? I feel sort of bad when declining people, but lvl. 3s that are obviously underrated, dont they really eat out of my lvl. ?


Pick and choose your games for what you'll enjoy, not for what they'll do to your level. In TrueSkill, you should always get a better expected value from playing a game than from not playing it, unless your skill is really inflated somehow.


I don't like to decline challenges, because I don't want to be exclusive. Even so, I'll often decline games with level-0 players, because those often end up as "teaching games" against rank newbies who play slowly. (The worst part is the newbies who don't want to be taught. "no thanks, I'll keep playing my way, more copper please"). But I try not to decline any others. Level 1 means you've proven you can beat the worst players, and that promises a reasonable game much more than level 0.

530
Rules Questions / Re: Who goes first?
« on: June 17, 2011, 08:14:43 pm »
So the table you posted is this?

Run trueskill for each game g between p1 and p2
  let d = abs(diff(mean(p1), mean(p2))
  associate win or loss with d

Then print win/total for each d?

I agree that makes sense, it basically the average win probability given level difference over all games on isotropic.


Yep, you got it.

531
I don't mind Saboteur at all. Who cares if I lose a couple of cards -- if my opponent is playing Saboteur, it probably means I'm winning.

I'm going to fly my freak flag and say that I love Possession. Both playing it and defending against it, even though I'm not that good at it yet. You know how Chapel makes the game into a different game from the start? Possession makes it turn into a different game around mid-game.

The card that annoys me the most is, surprisingly, Stash. It's not bad enough to ignore, it's not good enough to be happy about getting one, and it makes an awkward fiddly interface pop up every time I shuffle.


I also don't like the way Followers kicks you while you're down.


532
Rules Questions / Re: Who goes first?
« on: June 17, 2011, 02:07:37 pm »

From TrueSkill's point of view, it's more meaningful to compare the players' mean skills, not their levels. And these probabilities are interesting enough that I'll make a table of them.

diff  win prob.
0     50.0%
1     54.2%
2     57.6%
3     60.0%
4     63.5%
5     68.6%
6     71.5%
7     75.5%
8     78.7%
9     82.2%
10    82.6%
11    87.7%
12    90.8%
13    93.9%
14    97.6%
15    97.3%
16    98.6%
>=17  100%-ish



What did you do here?  The player variance matters a lot in terms of pushing probabilities toward 50% regardless of mean difference.  I don't see how you can reasonably ignore variance and still get output from trueskill.


Well, I certainly can get output, I'm just ignoring one of the dimensions in order to get a concise table that one can use as a rule of thumb. Yes, variance is important.


To take this thread even further afield: does anyone know how the automatcher works? Does Isotropic just set up the first available game, or does it try to wait for a good match based on skill? (TrueSkill was designed to suggest matches, not just to output skill ratings.)

533
Rules Questions / Re: Who goes first?
« on: June 17, 2011, 05:03:17 am »
I automatch against any reg. But I generally only accept challenges from 25+. Of course, I'm not 40+, though I was a couple of days last week. The only way I do anything to "game" the system at all really though is to almost always make sure I "win-quit".
I actually haven't looked at the math that close - is there a way to see what % you need to score to maintain a certain level difference? Obviously +/-0 is 50%, but is +1 like 51%, 60%, 90%, where? and +2, +3, so on. Is this out there somewhere?

Well, it's not just about how many games you win, it's who you beat. Just like in chess or other games with a global ranking system. But there's a related question I'm curious about too: how does a given TrueSkill difference translate into win probability?
I can attempt to answer this by running TrueSkill on my copy of the CouncilRoom database, which might not be exactly the same as when DougZ runs it but should be close. And I'm not running through all the games, just letting it converge until I get bored.

Now, you can compare skill values, or you can compare levels (minimum proven skill values). There's a lot of uncertainty when you compare levels, because people who haven't "proven themselves" have levels far lower than their actual skill. I ran it, though, and to summarize the results:
If you're up by 5 levels, you have about a 60% chance of winning. At 10 levels up, you have about a 2/3 chance. And it hovers around a 2/3 chance as the difference gets higher, up until it gets lost in the noise.

From TrueSkill's point of view, it's more meaningful to compare the players' mean skills, not their levels. And these probabilities are interesting enough that I'll make a table of them.

diff  win prob.
0     50.0%
1     54.2%
2     57.6%
3     60.0%
4     63.5%
5     68.6%
6     71.5%
7     75.5%
8     78.7%
9     82.2%
10    82.6%
11    87.7%
12    90.8%
13    93.9%
14    97.6%
15    97.3%
16    98.6%
>=17  100%-ish


534
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is the point counter cheating?
« on: June 15, 2011, 11:15:22 pm »
Do you honestly not know what a house rule is? If everyone agreed it was more fun to play with 4 golds in the starting deck, then it is within their right to play that way. Your example is silly (intentionally, I suspect) because we know that game wouldn't actually be more fun.

535
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is the point counter cheating?
« on: June 15, 2011, 10:38:33 pm »
Saucery. "Cheating" is a very strong accusation to cast so lightly, and here it makes no sense.

All players know before the game whether there will be a point counter, and when it's available, it's available to every player. It can't possibly be cheating if every player in the game agrees to it. It's called a "house rule".

536
Dominion General Discussion / Re: First player advantage
« on: June 14, 2011, 09:02:57 pm »
My guess is that games where people are playing Militia last longer, and longer games are more equalizing.

537
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is the point counter cheating?
« on: June 14, 2011, 07:34:11 pm »
How would you tell if your opponent is using the point counter? The built-in one doesn't give any indication of when you're looking at it, and the browser extension shows the current point count on the screen to the player running it. (!status is there so the other player can see it.)

538
Dominion General Discussion / Re: First player advantage
« on: June 14, 2011, 07:30:36 pm »
I'm currently experimenting with my "Best and Worst Openings" code for CouncilRoom to take player order into account. In general, going first in a 2-player game seems to be worth about 3 points of TrueSkill.

I don't know if there's something wonky going on, though, or if playing Militia first is not as good as people think. I'm only halfway through chugging through all the games, but so far, buying Militia+Silver as player 1 of 2 is a level 0 opening (it's indistinguishable from the first-player baseline that's now 3 points higher), and buying it as player 2 of 2 is a level+2 opening! So contrary to the claim that Militia amplifies the first-player advantage, this seems to be saying quite to the contrary that it almost equalizes it.

There are some openings that do seem to amplify the first player advantage. Chapel+Witch, for example, is level+10 for player 1 and level+7 for player 2. That three-level difference, plus another three levels for first-player advantage, would effectively put the first player 6 levels ahead in a game where both players open Chapel+Witch.

So are my results clearly flawed, or is the common intuition about Militia wrong?

539
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is the point counter cheating?
« on: June 14, 2011, 07:05:40 pm »
In every online game, everywhere, there are people who would rather shout "OMG HAX" than admit that they have lost a fair game. Don't pander to them.

It reminds me of a game I played yesterday where my opponent called me a "fucking game ruiner" (and not in a joking way) because I played Possession.

I personally like the point counter. It lets you play quicker games with more endgame strategy because you don't have to be counting points all the time. I understand that there are people who don't like it, and they are welcome to make sure their games don't use it.

540
Dominion Articles / Re: Hunting Party
« on: June 14, 2011, 05:01:51 am »
HP fails when you open huntingparty/-

And yet it's still a level+1 opening, while Laboratory/- is level 0! I take this as a strong sign of how good Hunting Party is: it's better than Laboratory even when it is almost guaranteed to fail the first time.

541
Game Reports / Re: High Score
« on: June 14, 2011, 04:49:36 am »
The title of this thread clearly should have been Scott Pilgrim's Finest Hour.

Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22]

Page created in 0.054 seconds with 18 queries.