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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 25, 2021, 07:52:55 pm »
Uncle scumslipped.
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52
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 24, 2021, 10:34:46 pm »
What I meant was that you have basically repeated your claim multiple times, tying it to you being town. That action in and of itself isn't alignment-indicative, but I think that it is more often repeated when the claim is fake.
To me, the first claim was fine. When it has been discussed by you in subsequent posts, though, it reads as though you are just repeating the same language. There are aspects that seem like you are being careful not to mess up the claim. And no "new" information came with any subsequent posts.
Like, a quick example below. Imagine each new line is a new post, with the game going on between.
"I'm a cop."
"No, I don't want to share results."
"I think it's better if I don't."
"Fine, I got innocent on X."
"Yes, I know they already flipped, so it's convenient."
"I targeted Y on N2 but got no result."
That's sort of a normal chain of a cop claim. It's definitely fake-able, but makes sense. Here's how your thread reads to me:
"I know there's poison in the game but I'm no poisoner, so you should definitely assume I'm a poison doctor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Okay, yeah, you got my super subtle hint there. I'm a poison doctor."
"Yeah, I'm a poison doctor."
"The word poison might show up in a flip because I'm a poison doctor."
"Poison doctor poison doctor. Two words are important. Poison doctor."
"Poison. Doctor."
"If I flip town, you'll know I'm poison doctor without the word poison. Poison Doctor. If I flip red, I'm lying. Poison Doctor."
"P-p-p-poisoooooooooon Doctor!"
You "full claimed" after a long run of that and no one really liking it. That is what I mean about your double-down.
To me, the first claim was fine. When it has been discussed by you in subsequent posts, though, it reads as though you are just repeating the same language. There are aspects that seem like you are being careful not to mess up the claim. And no "new" information came with any subsequent posts.
Like, a quick example below. Imagine each new line is a new post, with the game going on between.
"I'm a cop."
"No, I don't want to share results."
"I think it's better if I don't."
"Fine, I got innocent on X."
"Yes, I know they already flipped, so it's convenient."
"I targeted Y on N2 but got no result."
That's sort of a normal chain of a cop claim. It's definitely fake-able, but makes sense. Here's how your thread reads to me:
"I know there's poison in the game but I'm no poisoner, so you should definitely assume I'm a poison doctor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Okay, yeah, you got my super subtle hint there. I'm a poison doctor."
"Yeah, I'm a poison doctor."
"The word poison might show up in a flip because I'm a poison doctor."
"Poison doctor poison doctor. Two words are important. Poison doctor."
"Poison. Doctor."
"If I flip town, you'll know I'm poison doctor without the word poison. Poison Doctor. If I flip red, I'm lying. Poison Doctor."
"P-p-p-poisoooooooooon Doctor!"
You "full claimed" after a long run of that and no one really liking it. That is what I mean about your double-down.
53
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 24, 2021, 08:39:33 pm »
Also...
request prod/sub: Galzria
request prod/sub: Galzria
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 24, 2021, 08:38:51 pm »
I had no actual read on uncle before. I now have a straight mafia read on him, based solely on his posts since whenever I last posted.
Everything is OMGUS, self-referential meta explanations, and doubling-down the claim. Pretty straightforward "mafia who lost a partner" play, really.
Glooble's case seemed okay, helpful to see the posts together. Forgetting the claim in the QT is pretty bad. Lukewarm defense of joth resembles Scola, so that could be the three-person team if that's what we are looking for.
Am I to understand the uncle vs. PPS thing is solely based on the still ridiculous belief that we somehow know exactly how many non-town we have in this timeline based on that Mathdude guess? Because that's a terrible reason to limit discussion to two players. (The irony, of course, being that I used an argument against that belief as a reason to limit discussion to two players. But that's okay, because I was right.)
Also, PPS is worth keeping around. His running commentary on my play makes for a more fun game. If he's mafia, he'll slip before the end of the game.
Everything is OMGUS, self-referential meta explanations, and doubling-down the claim. Pretty straightforward "mafia who lost a partner" play, really.
Glooble's case seemed okay, helpful to see the posts together. Forgetting the claim in the QT is pretty bad. Lukewarm defense of joth resembles Scola, so that could be the three-person team if that's what we are looking for.
Am I to understand the uncle vs. PPS thing is solely based on the still ridiculous belief that we somehow know exactly how many non-town we have in this timeline based on that Mathdude guess? Because that's a terrible reason to limit discussion to two players. (The irony, of course, being that I used an argument against that belief as a reason to limit discussion to two players. But that's okay, because I was right.)
Also, PPS is worth keeping around. His running commentary on my play makes for a more fun game. If he's mafia, he'll slip before the end of the game.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 23, 2021, 08:30:30 am »
So...
The poison as mafia's (only) NK argument only works if mafia was allowed to poison someone on N0. If mafia has players in both timelines but they share a QT, easy enough to make that work.
Except...
We didn't have a timeline announced on N0, right? So how was that resolved? Was it just a free-for-all?
So one thing would be, if anyone could take an action on N0, please claim that specific tidbit. Just one is enough, but it would help immensely. Maybe you were 1-shot and used it; that's even better. Just don't tell us that part.
Basically, I think a normal game where mafia can only poison has zero kills on N1. In a normal game where there are multiple mafias and one is poisoner and the other isn't, you'd have one kill on N1 and then two each night unless blocking/doctoring.
So...uncle could have messed up his fakeclaim here.
The poison as mafia's (only) NK argument only works if mafia was allowed to poison someone on N0. If mafia has players in both timelines but they share a QT, easy enough to make that work.
Except...
We didn't have a timeline announced on N0, right? So how was that resolved? Was it just a free-for-all?
So one thing would be, if anyone could take an action on N0, please claim that specific tidbit. Just one is enough, but it would help immensely. Maybe you were 1-shot and used it; that's even better. Just don't tell us that part.
Basically, I think a normal game where mafia can only poison has zero kills on N1. In a normal game where there are multiple mafias and one is poisoner and the other isn't, you'd have one kill on N1 and then two each night unless blocking/doctoring.
So...uncle could have messed up his fakeclaim here.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 22, 2021, 09:54:47 pm »
I mean, exile Glooble. That's all I'm interesting in seeing.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 22, 2021, 09:54:25 pm »
PPS is correct, btw. I have zero interest in this timeline.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 22, 2021, 09:54:08 pm »
Actually, virus/vaccine would be a cool mafia flavor for poison/antidote.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 22, 2021, 09:53:28 pm »
Uncle softclaiming poison doctor there.
I mean, makes sense to do something when you are one of the possible exiles.
I mean, makes sense to do something when you are one of the possible exiles.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 21, 2021, 09:40:35 pm »
Also:
request prod: Galzria
I mean, if real life is busy, I get it. But sub out at some point. During his active timeline, he posted once? He hasn't posted in our QT since during Day 1.
request prod: Galzria
I mean, if real life is busy, I get it. But sub out at some point. During his active timeline, he posted once? He hasn't posted in our QT since during Day 1.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« on: May 21, 2021, 09:39:54 pm »
Putting my thoughts down as mentioned, even though it may not be too relevant to today's discussions. I guess Glooble is active, so there's that.
On Glooble:
--he and PPS have already discussed this, but Glooble's actions wrt joth are hard to ignore. He was by far joth's biggest defender, even making the twin argument at one point. I'd be interested in reading a study of twin play over time (Robz/Mcmc, glooble/joth, etc. in all games), actually. Someone should do that.
--So, as Glooble says, was he just super way wrong town? Or as PPS says, the boldest of bold mafia plays? I see a few possibilities, in no particular order.
1. Planned, bold mafia play. Decided early on that, for some reason (2-person team maybe?), there would be no bussing and they would be all in to defend each other at every turn.
2. Unplanned, bold mafia play. Started off defending joth assuming since it was an ashersky situation, it wouldn't take much to change the subject, but then it kept going and going, and backing off would have looked even worse after a flip (true) so he just went all in.
3. Wrong town read. Really just thought joth was town, was fooled, basically.
4. Unconscious bias against ashersky from previous interactions. This could be a thing...Glooble and I have argued in the past, so it's hard to trust the next time. Hopefully I've earned back some cred here.
I'm with PPS here in that Glooble's play is not necessarily bad or dumb mafia play. There's plenty of upside if he's on joth's team.
Now, scola.
I actually think scola looks much, much worse. He kept defending joth with a lot of "but what about me? I did the same stuff" kind of arguments. Their defense of joth was never about joth. It wasn't like "joth did x" or even "joth seems towny to me" but was instead only focused on "if ash says joth is mafia for X, why am I not mafia too since I also did X?"
Scola tried to discredit by case to relieve pressure on joth without actually defending joth himself, which means he can argue that he never really thought he was towny, etc. so that he doesn't look so bad when we know he's confirmed mafia. That's textbook partner defense.
I don't see any other explanation for scola's actions.
On Glooble:
--he and PPS have already discussed this, but Glooble's actions wrt joth are hard to ignore. He was by far joth's biggest defender, even making the twin argument at one point. I'd be interested in reading a study of twin play over time (Robz/Mcmc, glooble/joth, etc. in all games), actually. Someone should do that.
--So, as Glooble says, was he just super way wrong town? Or as PPS says, the boldest of bold mafia plays? I see a few possibilities, in no particular order.
1. Planned, bold mafia play. Decided early on that, for some reason (2-person team maybe?), there would be no bussing and they would be all in to defend each other at every turn.
2. Unplanned, bold mafia play. Started off defending joth assuming since it was an ashersky situation, it wouldn't take much to change the subject, but then it kept going and going, and backing off would have looked even worse after a flip (true) so he just went all in.
3. Wrong town read. Really just thought joth was town, was fooled, basically.
4. Unconscious bias against ashersky from previous interactions. This could be a thing...Glooble and I have argued in the past, so it's hard to trust the next time. Hopefully I've earned back some cred here.
I'm with PPS here in that Glooble's play is not necessarily bad or dumb mafia play. There's plenty of upside if he's on joth's team.
Now, scola.
I actually think scola looks much, much worse. He kept defending joth with a lot of "but what about me? I did the same stuff" kind of arguments. Their defense of joth was never about joth. It wasn't like "joth did x" or even "joth seems towny to me" but was instead only focused on "if ash says joth is mafia for X, why am I not mafia too since I also did X?"
Scola tried to discredit by case to relieve pressure on joth without actually defending joth himself, which means he can argue that he never really thought he was towny, etc. so that he doesn't look so bad when we know he's confirmed mafia. That's textbook partner defense.
I don't see any other explanation for scola's actions.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Night 2
« on: May 21, 2021, 08:55:19 am »
I have thoughts, especially on Glooble and scola.
I’m not able to post now, but will tomorrow.
Also, told you so.
I’m not able to post now, but will tomorrow.
Also, told you so.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 18, 2021, 02:05:38 pm »
I think Glooble is more likely to be wrong than a partner at this point. Unless it’s a 2-person team, with a weird wincon or something. Or a partner who went in to defend early not thinking it’s take so much to succeed and then worried that bailing would look worse.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 18, 2021, 02:02:50 pm »
I think there is also something to joth sitting at E-1 for many days, although the smaller player pool could affect that.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 18, 2021, 02:01:21 pm »
You can force a claim from me, I guess, but I’m worried the timing could go badly. I’m probably not awake at deadline.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 18, 2021, 02:00:17 pm »
Phone posting late at night.
I think joth’s reaction to my pressure was inconsistent with what I expect from town!joth. I do disagree with his argument, I do think he’s backtracked on that stance after pressure was brought to bear, and I think that movement is more likely from someone who started arguing an “opinion” that may have in fact been based on knowledge he could only have as non-town. Maybe it is 2 per timeline and he knows that. Maybe it isn’t but he really wants us to think that.
So, it is a read. More than I have on anyone else.
I think joth’s reaction to my pressure was inconsistent with what I expect from town!joth. I do disagree with his argument, I do think he’s backtracked on that stance after pressure was brought to bear, and I think that movement is more likely from someone who started arguing an “opinion” that may have in fact been based on knowledge he could only have as non-town. Maybe it is 2 per timeline and he knows that. Maybe it isn’t but he really wants us to think that.
So, it is a read. More than I have on anyone else.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 18, 2021, 09:50:37 am »
Okay, maybe that was a little childish. Just some innocent fun though. Sorry.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 18, 2021, 09:49:17 am »
Also, per Glooble, every vote ever cast by anyone ever is an unspoken "that's E-X!" announcement. 10 to Exile and first voter?
That's E-9 everyone!
That's E-9 everyone!
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 18, 2021, 09:48:05 am »I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town. It's super hilarious. I get why many may not understand why, but it is.
I did make a point that everyone ignored, so I’ll say it again- putting joth to E-1 and saying it was E-2 was scummy. What’s your defense of that?
When did I say it was E-2? You could provide a quote to help me there. The only post I see is where I say it was E-1.
Also, I just posted the mod posts I quoted to make my VCs. EFHW's vote wasn't there.
You are splitting hairs. Putting joth at E-1 and not announcing that you were doing that is scummy. Posting an outdated vote count before your own vote clearly implies the belief that you were putting him to E-2. You didn't say "that's E-2" but the fact that you didn't say "that's E-1" is just as bad.
And this, by the way, is exactly the kind of bad faith argument you've been making against joth all day. You know full well what I meant, you chose to interpret my accusation overly literally in an attempt to make me look bad.
I didn't consciously think about what E my vote was, just that it wasn't the hammer, and that in itself would be out of character for me. I definitely didn't know it was E-1 or E-2, nor did I particularly care. Is that the answer you wanted to hear? I think it hurts your case even more.
Does me making a "bad faith argument" have any impact on my alignment? I disagree with your characterization, but I think the question is a fair one for you to ask yourself.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 17, 2021, 10:59:36 pm »
About 18 hours to go, right?
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 17, 2021, 10:59:06 pm »
Galz, Dylan, or scola voting joth is the only way we're getting an exile. It's up to any of you three at this point.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 17, 2021, 10:57:42 pm »
He's basically given a real life reason for missing D1, said he'd be around today (but hasn't), and that's it. Very few posts at all.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 17, 2021, 10:57:04 pm »
I am Galz's QT partner. He's been just as inactive there as here.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 17, 2021, 10:56:31 pm »I'd like to invite joth (and any other players who would like) to continue to try to make a case, any case, that I am not town. It's super hilarious. I get why many may not understand why, but it is.
I did make a point that everyone ignored, so I’ll say it again- putting joth to E-1 and saying it was E-2 was scummy. What’s your defense of that?
When did I say it was E-2? You could provide a quote to help me there. The only post I see is where I say it was E-1.
Also, I just posted the mod posts I quoted to make my VCs. EFHW's vote wasn't there.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« on: May 17, 2021, 10:55:34 pm »I need to do a proper reread and do some real scumhunting instead of letting ash distract me with his BS. Perhaps I'll have time today.
Still hoping to see this!
I should have time tomorrow.
FYI, you are at E-1. Like a real one, because I'm already voting.
After the next vote count, I posted this. I was the first player to point out the E-1.