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51
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 2
« on: March 21, 2018, 08:45:01 am »
Okay, I think I need a reads list to keep track of everybody...
Robz: absent much of day 1.  Comes back in support of the mcmc-lynch with I feel like good reasoning, but of course we now know that was a bad lynch.  After a fresh read, often town can come in with a new direction, scum would probably feel good about pushing the leading wagon.  Still, his arguments and reactions sound townier.  I'm going to lean town here, if that's right, it's unfortunate that he didn't come in with a new direction yesterday, but it is what it is.

Joseph: early mass-claim push, and then he kind of just laid low until later in the day where he kind of avoided talking about mcmc.  Says he's going to re-read "especially mcmc", but ends up voting schadd without explicit reasoning.  Which, while I don't know that it's particularly scummy, it doesn't help get anyone off of mcmc either.  This could easily be scum trying to avoid a known bad-lynch, while trying not to derail it.  I'm leaning a little scummy here.

schadd: He has that argument with ww, which now known-town mcmc thought included scum.  After TWM notes that only mcmc has gotten above 2 votes, and pushes him for inactivity...he makes a comment about galz, and joins mcmc?  (@schadd: what did you mean by "i wanted to see if/how galz would leave ww"?)  Also he joins mcmc after TWM points out that it's scummy that he stayed off.  Highest scum-read so far.

SpaceAnemone: joins the mcmc wagon early and sticks there.  She does try to prod people to give more info, offers reads, and generally seems to do pro-town work.  I'm reading town here.

TWM: was on mcmc before it was cool.  Then had an argument with galz. Then switched back to mcmc, until he unvoted later to try to make other things happen (like schadd).  He reads town to me for how this went down, even though it's something scum might like to do to distance themselves from a bad lynch.  I guess I might be influenced by my scum-read of schadd, but I'm strongly reading him as town.

Theorel: I'm town, wee

Galzria: He agrees with mcmc, then agrees with schadd, then fights with TWM, over asking mcmc to provide examples, then agrees with robz, twice. He seems to be drawing his opinions from other players rather than providing his own...might be a higher scum-read than schadd.

Witherweaver: Argument with schadd, where he doesn't vote him. Ends up on mcmc, and sticks there while trying to pull arguments out of others. Pulled a good bit of heat over the day, but it never went anywhere...still, I'm going to tentatively lean town here.

pps: he voted for me early with no reason, and just stuck to it.  When providing an argument, it was "it's all really based on his initial posts", which doesn't really explain what he found scummy...then he defends it being forced because it's day1.  And then he hammered.  While the hammer is apparently NAI for pps, the rest reads scummy to me.  A lot like Joseph, he looked like he was trying to go somewhere other than pps, but didn't really push to make it happen.

I'm going to go ahead with vote: Galzria, though I could be persuaded to help with schadd. 

52
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - N1
« on: March 20, 2018, 11:23:39 am »
Okay, rereading Datswan...looks like he was early suspicious of mcmc and Joseph.  Then his vote for Robz, seems to have been a misunderstanding of Galz' post above, since he interpreted it against Robz, when I think it's just against me?

So, I doubt Robz would feel compelled to kill him over it.  Maybe Joseph, but I'm not putting high likelihood on it only applies to one person.

53
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 20, 2018, 11:01:10 am »
I'm somewhat concerned that we nail scum day-1, and then I get vigged, because of random claims that I'm bussing, without a reasonable chance to defend myself.

Not really something to be somewhat concerned about, lynching scum Day 1 is so great when it happens. I’m sure you don’t want to be vigged, but no one else does either, so.

I agree. This seems an odd fear. Even were I say, a cop, if we lynched mafia D1 I wouldn't be at all bitter about being vigged N1.

Not to mention... being Vigged is an oddly specific way to worry about dying. Not SK'd, not Mafia Killed... Vigged. I dunno. Rubs me wrong to be concerned about that in particular.

Glancing back up the page, I'm reminded of this, which I didn't have a chance to respond to yesterday before the day ended.  I was specifically concerned about being suspected of bussing mcmc, so in that instance vig is the only kill I'd be worried about.  I'm not sure why that seems odd to you, but obviously other people agreed.  In hindsight as Robz said, being nk'd after a day1 scum-kill is not really a big deal...I think, maybe I was just feeling good about hitting on what I thought was scum, and kind of bummed out that people thought I was bussing.

54
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - N1
« on: March 20, 2018, 10:53:50 am »
I don't think it really hit me until seeing the deaths just now...how tough it would be getting no information from nks.
Well, let's see...without knowing anything else, we're missing a kill, it was either blocked or collided.

Awaclus seems like an unlikely scum kill for either SK or mafia.  He was not exactly highly participatory, not really a town-read.  I guess scum could kill him as a wild-card, but I'd expect lots of others first.  So, I'm guessing he was the vig-kill.

Datswan seems like a more likely scum-kill.  Pretty townie all-in-all, I think, might be worth reviewing his reads to see if scum might have killed him for his suspicions?

Interestingly, both kills are off-wagon.  Ups the chances that scum was on-wagon.  If at least both mafia are on-wagon, that gives pretty good chances of finding them.  Just from final vote-count ww and robz come off a bit scummy.

55
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 17, 2018, 10:08:28 pm »
Now, I'm not saying that mcmc would have just flown under the radar had I not made my post, but I don't understand my scum-narrative in getting my version of the argument out there first, unless it was a bad argument that could be easily discredited, which the dual-agreement argues against.

56
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 17, 2018, 10:06:59 pm »
Yay, Robz's back.  Boo, he thinks I'm bussing :(

I don't really understand what about my vote seems like bussing.  I was the first to explicitly point out why his post was scummy (rather than just naked voting him), which is the same point that Robz is making here (i.e. it's scummy because he claimed a non-town-v-town interaction without actually committing himself to anything (such as with a vote or reasoning)).  It's a post designed to draw attention towards those 2 players, and make people think they're scummy without drawing attention to himself.  An attempt which ultimately failed when I posted my argument and immediately got 2 agreements with it.

I'm somewhat concerned that we nail scum day-1, and then I get vigged, because of random claims that I'm bussing, without a reasonable chance to defend myself.

57
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 17, 2018, 06:19:30 pm »
Deadline tomorrow...I'm probably not going to be around a lot between now and then.  I'll try to check in later tonight and tomorrow afternoon, but weekends are pretty busy for me generally.  Not that things are really moving around here anyways...And, people are here so that's it for me.  I'll try to post some more thoughts later.

58
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 16, 2018, 08:13:19 am »
I feel like the Galz-TWM thing is Galz antagonizing TWM, and TWM reacting to being antagonized.  I'm not getting anything alignment-useful from that interaction, mostly it just makes me uncomfortable, and I would rather games not go in that direction.  To me this situation should be defused not just by TWM not getting so riled up, but also by Galz not intentionally riling him up.  At some point in that conversation it could have been unintentional, but it hit a point where it just seems rude to me.

---
Regarding the substance of the argument.  I think that what actually happened (after looking back at the game) in smash bros is that Robz came out early for a mass-claim, and mcmc voted for him for it, and everyone else just ignored it and went forward with the claim (he did not get town-cred for it).  Later in that same game, O did something scummy (blocked a potential doctor), and got town-cred for it.  I think mcmc combined these things into a scum pushes mass-claim (which is scummy), and gets town-cred.  (I think it especially impacted mcmc because he found Robz scummy for it in Smash Bros, but didn't push it enough).

Enter this game, and someone pushes mass-claim.  I think an mcmc of either alignment sees that and reacts to it.  (either as scum seeing it as a good reason for framing, or as town seeing it and not wanting to let it get away this time).

Now maybe my perspective is off, I didn't review Lost (where TWM said this happened as well).  I don't know of any other recent games where this may have happened.  I already mentioned Gilmore Girls, where silver claimed mime as scum, which could be viewed as scum doing something scummy (though not pushing mass-claim).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

59
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 16, 2018, 07:59:33 am »
...


Why these players? I am voting Joseph, MC is also Joseph and the two of you are not fuefingbyet at this point, Awaclus isn’t voting, PPS is on Theroel, and Theroel is on MC.

This is super weird. Clearly you are pushing Galz at this point - but you never mention either of the players voting Joseph. Why not ask us to hop on the wagon too?
???

60
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 15, 2018, 10:49:19 am »
...
All that said, this seems like a classic "town says something weird and gets heat for it" situation.  It's why I thought he would be a good wagon, because it might draw scum out either supporting his lynch or simply voting for him.  But then schadd and witherweaver's argument became dominant, so I don't think my vote actually had much impact there, but it still seems to have drawn out mcmc, who certainly reads scummy for how he weighed in on it.

It was me telling Schadd that I'm town.

Man, you guys really stretch things around here.
That's kind of the point.  There's a general view (which I don't really subscribe to) that scum is more likely to tell people they're town.  Also, telling schadd that you're town implies that you know that he's not scum (as otherwise he'd already know).  This all adds up to a bunch of nothing (IMO) which can be made to sound scummy, which was my point.

61
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 15, 2018, 08:41:04 am »
vote: witherweaver

You have chosen... Poorly.

Vote: WW

All other interactions between WW & Schadd aside, this subtly suggests to me WW knows Schadd to be town - as I feel like the "choosing" of a vote is more an act of a townie who is trying to discover scum, whereas say, the "placing" of a vote is something scum does.

I guess it's a small thing, and I get WW was making a reference - but the way it was worded feels off to me.
I disagree with your argument, but I get the "feels off" part.  I think maybe because "Chosen poorly" is an implied "I'm town" claim combined with the proposal that schadd is town and making a mistake, rather than scum making an intentional push on town.  (which leads to the same conclusion, i.e. witherweaver is casting schadd as town here).

All that said, this seems like a classic "town says something weird and gets heat for it" situation.  It's why I thought he would be a good wagon, because it might draw scum out either supporting his lynch or simply voting for him.  But then schadd and witherweaver's argument became dominant, so I don't think my vote actually had much impact there, but it still seems to have drawn out mcmc, who certainly reads scummy for how he weighed in on it.
(it being the argument, not my vote)

62
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 15, 2018, 08:39:57 am »
vote: witherweaver

You have chosen... Poorly.

Vote: WW

All other interactions between WW & Schadd aside, this subtly suggests to me WW knows Schadd to be town - as I feel like the "choosing" of a vote is more an act of a townie who is trying to discover scum, whereas say, the "placing" of a vote is something scum does.

I guess it's a small thing, and I get WW was making a reference - but the way it was worded feels off to me.
I disagree with your argument, but I get the "feels off" part.  I think maybe because "Chosen poorly" is an implied "I'm town" claim combined with the proposal that schadd is town and making a mistake, rather than scum making an intentional push on town.  (which leads to the same conclusion, i.e. witherweaver is casting schadd as town here).

All that said, this seems like a classic "town says something weird and gets heat for it" situation.  It's why I thought he would be a good wagon, because it might draw scum out either supporting his lynch or simply voting for him.  But then schadd and witherweaver's argument became dominant, so I don't think my vote actually had much impact there, but it still seems to have drawn out mcmc, who certainly reads scummy for how he weighed in on it.

63
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 14, 2018, 07:45:31 am »
hmmm this schad and ww back and forth does not feel overly town v. town as early squabbles like this often do.
That's funny, as I was reading it I felt the exact opposite.  It's so nitpicky, and wording-focused rather than substance-focused, that it strikes me as a town-interaction.  This post here though, it's very shade-casting without really putting yourself out there.  I'm agreeing with witherweaver's vote here.  In fact, I'll just go ahead and join him, vote: mcmc.

Have just caught up, and yes, when I got to mcmc's post, my thinking was similar. Well, it was more that both lines of reasoning have their validity: WW feels like he's taking his side with genuine conviction, but schadd's behaviour seems nothing out of the ordinary... I'm sure I've left RVS votes hanging a bunch of times and then worked out that they're reasonable places to be voting after all.

Vote: mcmc wagons!
(I really need to set up y wagon counter for this game.. I'm going to trust I'm not at risk of a derp-hammer or anything silly just yet, though!

Feels off to me that space wouldn’t “do the derp hammer math” first.
I feel like town is more likely to actually not do derp-hammer math.

64
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 13, 2018, 01:31:24 pm »
hmmm this schad and ww back and forth does not feel overly town v. town as early squabbles like this often do.
That's funny, as I was reading it I felt the exact opposite.  It's so nitpicky, and wording-focused rather than substance-focused, that it strikes me as a town-interaction.  This post here though, it's very shade-casting without really putting yourself out there.  I'm agreeing with witherweaver's vote here.  In fact, I'll just go ahead and join him, vote: mcmc.

65
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 13, 2018, 07:46:25 am »
I think I like to vote: witherweaver, need to get these wagons moving people...besides Awaclus has made a compelling argument as always.

66
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 12, 2018, 10:46:34 am »
I think scum has gotten away with pushing scummy things early and getting town read for it because it’s “pushing us out of rvs” but I think just posting ridiculous things like massclaiming in this setup should not be given towncred

So do you think Joshua is skummy for doing it?
You mean Joseph?

67
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 12, 2018, 10:46:13 am »
I think scum has gotten away with pushing scummy things early and getting town read for it because it’s “pushing us out of rvs” but I think just posting ridiculous things like massclaiming in this setup should not be given towncred
I'll just have to take your word for it.  I don't think that particular thing is true in any game I've been a part of.  Robz was not town-read in Smash Bros, Silver was town-read (by me at least) in Gilmore Girls (but it wasn't pushing anything scummy), and Space Alert was too different to apply.

Then again, in smash bros, O got town-read for doing scummy things as well.  So maybe the point is more generically that scum seems to be taking advantage of "too scummy to be scum"? this allows them to just be scummy without getting in trouble for it.  Hmm...I could be persuading myself to recalibrate here.  I feel like my sample may be too small, but you and Galz at least are suggesting it to be true (in the specific pushing for mass-claim case).  Would anyone say this has been generally true?

68
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 11, 2018, 09:26:48 pm »
Also I suggest a full mass roleclaim right now. If 5 people don't object in the next 5 hours, then I will claim my role
This is dumb, don't do it.  While pushing for mass-claim has been scum in a couple recent games, this particular methodology seems more geared towards pushing us out of RVS into real-reads voting, so I'm tentatively reading joseph as town.

This is why scum keeps doing this
I'm not sure what "this" is?  I don't think Robz was town-read for pushing a mass-claim, though I could be misremembering.  I don't think scum is generally in favor of pushing us out of RVS?  Since providing real-sounding fake analysis is definitely harder than providing no reasoning at all and bantering around.

And although it does invite theory discussion, I think the particular way that he stated it pushes us more into taking sides and providing reads.  His statement is provocative, and I still think scum tends away from provocative statements in general.  Yes, that means that I'm potentially letting scum players get away with them (like in Gilmore Girls), but I just think scum doesn't like to make themselves the center of attention unnecessarily.

69
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 10, 2018, 10:16:20 pm »
Also, hey everybody! :)

70
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II - Day 1
« on: March 10, 2018, 10:15:45 pm »
Also I suggest a full mass roleclaim right now. If 5 people don't object in the next 5 hours, then I will claim my role
This is dumb, don't do it.  While pushing for mass-claim has been scum in a couple recent games, this particular methodology seems more geared towards pushing us out of RVS into real-reads voting, so I'm tentatively reading joseph as town.

71
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M114: Wheel of Time II
« on: March 06, 2018, 09:28:09 pm »
/in
Yay, Wheel of Time :)

72
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM42: Space Alert Mafia (Game Over!)
« on: March 05, 2018, 08:23:41 am »
Although I agree with faust that the set-up isn't necessarily unbalanced (just harder work-wise for scum), it might be too swingy.  I think a couple tweaks could help with that.

I think the set-up would be more fun, if there were only 3 scum, but the actions were tweaked to give scum more options and to make coordination more problematic.  In particular, it seems to me like scum's best options in the current set-up involve taking the pro-town powers in order to prevent town getting full value out of them...but then if scum fake-claims, they have to figure out some ineffective action they could have taken.  And even then, claiming ineffective actions can leave scum exposed if town's actions were largely effective.

I think the lower deck blocks night-kill is a bit overkill, and could be removed.
And then, say, lower blue Sabotage was "Cause a player's card action or movement to fail."  This would open up scum's fake-claim possibilities because if they claim a failed action (when they simply didn't attempt it), town has to allow for the possibility of sabotage.  It also really hinders full coordination because that tells scum exactly where to use a sabotage to hurt (and again scum that fails to take their coordinated action was maybe sabotaged out of it).

Some other thoughts:
-Lower Red/Blue could have A and C swapped, limiting town's monitor abilities.
-Another sabotage action (maybe lower-central C?) to "steal" cards from another player (maybe reduce that player's free card draw to 1 for that turn?  So it can't stack to lock someone out, but it really hinders town's options, and makes them want to use the card-draw as counterplay?).

Possibly offering sabotage options in upper A/B actions, still costing energy?  Like if, the cop-switch was a sabotage on upper Blue A...then scum can go for it, and then fake-claim that they've used weak visitor.  Status printout denies their fake-claim then, but that's no worse than the current situation, and if the only status printout is in scum's hands it really opens them up.

You could also do sabotage in the form of, say, "Strongman" so scum can force a nk through any possible protection with the right card-play.

I think daychat is a good idea.  It's tough enough to detect a lie, which means working out a good enough fake-claim is even tougher.  At least with daychat, if you have just one player that can work out the lies you can get a safe-claim for everyone.  Whereas, without daychat, you need each scum-player to be able to come up with their own safe-claim.

Although ultimately playing scum is going to take more work in a set-up like this (simply because of the amount of info potentially available to town), I think that work can have significant pay-off if scum has the tools at their disposal to frame town.

Final thought: near-unlimited nightkill protection for town is, I think, ultimately OP.  While letting scum "fail" any single night-action could help with that, some sort of ability to overcome it is probably ideal.  As it is currently, you can essentially force scum to help block the nk, and they can't do anything about it.  If scum has a power to pierce it, then you don't know whether someone failed to help stop the nk or if scum got in a pierce action somewhere.

73
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM42: Space Alert Mafia (Day 6)
« on: March 03, 2018, 11:29:18 pm »
Note: at this point we have 3 100% confirmed town: silver, e, and myself.
faust and efhw are extremely likely town.

So, if rr turns out town, y'know don't investigate a confirmed town player.

74
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM42: Space Alert Mafia (Day 6)
« on: March 03, 2018, 09:12:17 pm »
It sounds like e has us covered. People early in the order can cop.
works for me.
vote: rr

75
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM42: Space Alert Mafia (Day 5)
« on: February 28, 2018, 04:04:28 pm »
If all of those cop results come back town.  Then the only possible scum are roadrunner, EFHW, Awaclus, and faust (if Lalight doctored silver).

I don't think you would have made the claims you did if iguana was your partner.  Faust has seemed townie, plus the need for scum to doctor silver to cause a false-result.

But, we should also have the ability to cop 3 more times tomorrow, so if we lynch roadrunner and he ends up town (in this hypothetical), then we can cop the remaining players and determine scum.

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