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201

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?

« on: January 04, 2012, 12:33:53 pm »

- What action cards do you want and how many of them (e.g. 1 Margrave before going for IGGs, numberous Monuments for $4, maybe trashers etc.)?

I've been looking through my most successful IGG games.  Many of them have an action or two.  Most are obvious.  Smithy, Steward, Watchtower.  Border Village because, hey, why not?  Nomad Camp seems particularly useful if you open 4/3 because there's some chance you can hit $5 on the second hand.  Monument seems good.  Bishop seems counterproductive.

I'm trying to think of $5 cards that would be worthwhile.  I don't think there's a $5 card worth getting before IGG.  The first IGGs hurt the most, then it's diminishing returns.  Apprentice would eventually be useful, especially with +buy somewhere in the deck.  Mine is also nice, transforming Silver and IGG into in-hand IGG.  Eventually it'd convert IGG into Gold.  If you drew 5 coppers after turn 7-ish, Mint could be worthwhile.

- When do you take the copper in cases you don't actually need it for your buy? Ideally you keep track of your deck composition and calculate the buying power - if it's >1.0, don't take the copper, if its <1.0, get it. However, this is a bit flawed since your buying power in the "Duchy phase" decreases faster than you can increase it during the "IGG phase" - so there's still no definite answer. Most times it's probably better to just take it (assuming almost pure IGG rushs), but as I seed in the beginning, I'm not sure.

Taking the Copper when you don't need to spend it is almost always bad in my mind.  The only exception I can think of is if you're trying to 3 pile with Gardens.  If your buying power is < 1.0, (a) you've probably already lost, and (b) it'd be better to buy Silver on your inevitable $4 hands to catch up.  Silver will increase your buying power over 1.0, Copper will only make it asymptotically approach 1.0.

202

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Feature Request: Timer

« on: January 04, 2012, 10:45:03 am »

I'd have to withdraw my support for this feature for technical reasons.  Iso has had some very slow moments in the last few days.  Iso slowness shouldn't be able to force you to forfeit.

Still, I think there's a real problem here.  If the recommended course of action while playing a game is to tab out and do something else for a while, that should be a big red flag.

203

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?

« on: January 03, 2012, 11:41:37 pm »

I'd like to know which games are the 30% that IGG is ignorable. I found it is very hard for me to understand. Somehow it is a lot weaker than other cursers vs. trashers? (I don't mean in the same board; instead, there seems to be lots of boards where ok, I am going to get a witch even with this trasher available, then if there is IGG instead of the witch, it no longer worth getting.) Am I right at this?

Games with Traders.  This is the big one.  You spend $5 for what is essentially a self-duplicating Copper, and you're possibly handing me a Silver in the process.  Not only that, but when it happens, the piles become uneven.  No curse is given or trashed.

Games with Watchtower  Not only can I trash the curses as they come in, but I can also buy curses, trashing them immediately to make the piles uneven (obviously works best with some source of +buy).

Games with Ambassador.  I give the curses to you, and make the piles uneven by deciding how many to return to the supply.

Games with Embargo.  You hurt yourself as much as me by buying IGG and make the piles uneven.

Games with heavy trashing and a dominant engine.  Something like Chapel, Highway, Grand Market.

Games with hand size reduction attacks.  I haven't tested it, but I assume Militia or Ghost Ship would do well against IGG.  They mitigate the effects of curses while making it harder for you to get $5 with Copper/IGG. 

Games with Jack of all Trades, possibly.  Playing JoaT to trash curses while gaining silvers is nice.  You'd use the Silver to start buying out the Duchy pile before the other guy was done with IGG, beating him to the punch.

204

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys

« on: January 03, 2012, 11:02:19 pm »

Horse Traders + Nothing could be better than HT + Silver in a Colony game with Hunting Party.  Horse Traders will get you Gold and Hunting Party pretty consistently, and Silver is a pretty weak card for HP to find.

Potion + Nothing would be better than Potion + Silver if you were doing the NV + Apothecary combo.  You'd probably still want the opening buy, though (Potion + Copper).  NV is a dead card until you have an Apothecary.

(Edit) If you know the other guy is going for Pirate Ship, 4/- openings could make sense.  Ironworks/-, Moneylender/-, Conspirator/- all seem plausible.

205

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?

« on: January 03, 2012, 08:45:19 pm »

What makes IGG different from other curse givers is that it starts cursing reliably every turn very early in the game, runs out 2 piles instead of one, and has fewer counters. 

IGG will get a curse in the other guy's deck one shuffle sooner than the other curse givers.  By turn 5, it's reliably giving curses basically every turn with no support cards.  Further, the hypothetical Witch deck with good cycling may be able to empty the curse pile by turn 15, but remember that IGG has emptied 2 piles by turn 15 and has no problem buying a duchy each turn.

I've personally done very well with IGG (my effect with is 3.5), but I usually decline games with it now, because it's not very fun for me.  I don't know that it's game-breaking, but on boards that support it, it's a completely dominant strategy.

206

Dominion Articles / Re: Silk Road

« on: January 03, 2012, 04:26:04 pm »

I <3 Silk Road

It introduces an element of surprise to the game that you don't get with other cards.  By comparison, Gardens strategies are pretty obvious from the start.  With one or two support cards, you pretty much assume the other guy is going for Gardens.  Silk Road strategies, on the other hand, tend to look a lot more like generic Province strategies in the early game.  There's a fun factor there that Gardens just doesn't have.

Silk Road conflicts with most trashing, but it seems to work well with Remake.  The idea is you start off as so many other games, buying treasure, $3-$4 engine cards, and trashing your initial deck with Remake (trashing Estates if you're feeling particularly bold).  Then you spend 2-3 turns remaking $3 cards into Silk Roads and buying Estates or Silk Roads with your remaining cards.  It's not uncommon to grab 4 Silk Roads and 2 Estates in the first 2 turns with Remake, leaving the other player with fewer options.

Remake + Trader + Silk Road can be sick.  Gain lots of Silvers.  Remake Silvers into Silk Roads, then into Remakes.  Remake Remakes into Duchies, all while buying Estates.  I imagine other Silver gainers would also perform well.

207

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Feature Request: Timer

« on: January 03, 2012, 11:38:43 am »

tl;dr:  Players should be able to mutually agree that they want to play a quick game, despite slower strategies being available.

208

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Feature Request: Timer

« on: January 03, 2012, 11:36:09 am »

Trying to claim that the situation is analogous to chess is disingenuous.

I didn't claim it was analogous to chess.  I said a Dominion clock should work like a chess clock, rules-wise.

And yes, it would mean that a strategy of buying up Pawns, Hamlets, and Scrying Pools would come back to bite you, but that's kind of the point.  It combats a specific problem, which is that it sucks to play against certain strategies, even if you're winning.  If you're playing _-BM, your turns take 5 seconds, then you're stuck waiting.  It also allows you to allot, say, 45 mins to playing and know that you'll get through at least 2 games.

I'd propose an optional timer that you wouldn't even think about in 90% of games, but which would make you think twice about using long-turn strategies.  10 minutes seems roughly right.

As an example, take a look at the following turn log.  I'm Player 1.  I was only 8 points behind going into turn 18.  I had a couple of KCs and a Bishop, so I still had an outside chance of winning.  I count roughly 50 mouse clicks required to get through his turn 20 (some of them by me due to Bishop and Mountebank).  It was outright aggravating.

Code: [Select]

--- Player 1's turn 18 ---
Player 1 plays a Hamlet.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
Player 1 plays 2 Coppers.
Player 1 buys a Hamlet.
(Player 1 reshuffles.)
(Player 1 draws: 3 Coppers and 2 Curses.)


--- Player 2's turn 19 ---
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Copper and discarding it.
... making Player 1 discard a Hamlet.
... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... revealing a King's Court and an Estate and putting them in the hand.
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Bishop and keeping it.
... letting Player 1 keep a Copper.
... revealing a Bishop, a King's Court, and a Gold and putting them in the hand.
Player 2 plays a King's Court.
... and plays a King's Court.
... ... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... and plays a Crossroads.
... ... ... Player 2 reveals a Mountebank, 2 Hamlets, a Bishop, an Estate, a Copper, and a Gold.
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +3 actions.
... ... and plays the Crossroads again.
... ... ... Player 2 reveals a Mountebank, 2 Hamlets, a Bishop, an Estate, a Copper, a Steward, and a Gold.
... ... ... drawing 1 card.
... ... and plays the Crossroads a third time.
... ... ... Player 2 reveals a Mountebank, 2 Hamlets, a Bishop, an Estate, a King's Court, a Copper, a Steward, and a Gold.
... ... ... drawing 1 card.
... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Mountebank.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... Player 1 discards a Curse.
... ... ... and plays the Mountebank again.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... Player 1 discards a Curse.
... ... ... and plays the Mountebank a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... Player 1 gains a Copper.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a Steward.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward again.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward a third time.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... and plays a Bishop.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Curse.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... and plays the Bishop again.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... and plays the Bishop a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes an Estate and gets +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
Player 2 plays a Hamlet.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Silver and discarding it.
... letting Player 1 keep a Copper.
... revealing a Platinum and putting it in the hand.
Player 2 plays a Hamlet.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
Player 2 plays a King's Court.
... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
Player 2 plays a King's Court.
... but plays no action with it.
Player 2 plays 2 Coppers, a Potion, a Gold, and a Platinum.
Player 2 buys a Scrying Pool.
Player 2 buys a Platinum.
Player 2 buys a Tactician.
Player 2 buys a Steward.
(Player 2 reshuffles.)
(Player 2 draws: a Platinum, a Hamlet, a Scrying Pool, a Steward, and a King's Court.)
   

--- Player 1's turn 19 ---
Player 1 does nothing.
(Player 1 draws: 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Curse, and a Silver.)


--- Player 2's turn 20 ---
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Copper and discarding it.
... making Player 1 discard a Hamlet.
... revealing a Mountebank and a Silver and putting them in the hand.
Player 2 plays a Hamlet.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Copper and discarding it.
... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... revealing a Bishop, a King's Court, a Steward, a King's Court, and a Copper and putting them in the hand.
Player 2 plays a King's Court.
... and plays a King's Court.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Steward.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward again.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward a third time.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... ... and plays a Scrying Pool.
... ... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Tactician and keeping it.
... ... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Tactician and a Gold and putting them in the hand.
... ... ... ... and plays the Scrying Pool again.
... ... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Scrying Pool and keeping it.
... ... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Scrying Pool and a Copper and putting them in the hand.
... ... ... ... and plays the Scrying Pool a third time.
... ... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Platinum and keeping it.
... ... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Platinum and putting it in the hand.
... ... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... ... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... ... and plays a Mountebank.
... ... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... ... Player 1 gains a Copper.
... ... ... ... and plays the Mountebank again.
... ... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... ... Player 1 gains a Copper.
... ... ... ... and plays the Mountebank a third time.
... ... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... ... Player 1 gains a Copper.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... and plays a Steward.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... and plays the Steward again.
... ... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Bishop.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Curse.
... ... ... and plays the Bishop again.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... and plays the Bishop a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... ... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... ... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... and plays a Scrying Pool.
... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... revealing a Copper and discarding it.
... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... ... revealing a Potion and putting it in the hand.
... ... ... and plays the Scrying Pool again.
... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... revealing a Copper and keeping it.
... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... revealing a Copper and putting it in the hand.
... ... ... and plays the Scrying Pool a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... revealing nothing (no cards).
... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... revealing nothing.
... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... ... drawing nothing and getting +1 action.
... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
Player 2 plays 2 Coppers, 2 Platinums, a Silver, a Potion, and a Gold.
Player 2 buys a King's Court.
Player 2 buys a King's Court.
Player 2 buys a King's Court.
Player 2 buys a Hamlet.
Player 2 buys a Hamlet.
Player 2 buys a Hamlet.
Player 2 buys an Estate.
(Player 2 reshuffles.)
(Player 2 draws: a Hamlet, a Steward, 2 King's Courts, and a Bishop.)

Curses, King's Courts, and Hamlets are all gone.
Player 2 wins!

209

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Air travel with Dominion

« on: January 03, 2012, 10:42:11 am »

I know there are clear boxes.  Alternately, put them in gallon-sized plastic bags.  If the cards are put in the bags neatly and packed among clothes, they should stay tidy and shouldn't be damaged at all.  If you're worried about what happens at your destination, flatten the card box and pack it separately.

When I was growing up, I had a card box that had basebally things printed on it.  Storing cards in that would make it more obvious what the contents are.

So yeah, store it in something clear and/or make the box look more like a toy.  Unidentified mass in a nondescript cardboard box would freak me out too.

210

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Feature Request: Timer

« on: January 02, 2012, 06:37:30 pm »

I'd like this idea as an option, though without the skipping turns thing.  In chess, if your clock runs out, you lose.  Have an option for timed games where each player gets 10 minutes (or whatever seems reasonable).  The game goes on as normal, but if you spend longer than 10 minutes total playing, you lose immediately.  Possession should count against your clock, not the possessed player's.

I like playing quick games because I can play more of them.  I reject games that look like they're going to take forever due to attacks or strategies (I'm looking at you, Scrying Pool).  I've vetoed Hamlet more than once.  It'd be nice to be able to say "I'm looking for a quick game" and hold both players to that.

211

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Feature Request: Make resigning easier

« on: January 02, 2012, 05:15:14 pm »

I don't really care how the mechanics of it work, but I do think that it should be obvious how to resign and it should be possible to resign at any point.  It should be possible to solve the misclicking issue while still having the resign button available.  Just add a confirmation message.

As it stands, most people must be clicking "exit" or closing the tab.  It's irritating to sit around and wait for things to time out.

The FAQ suggests you can only resign at the start of your turn: http://dominion.isotropic.org/faq/#resign

I can't think of a reason for this limitation in 2 player.  In multiplayer, I could see it being trickier, but the problems I can think of seem solvable.

212

Dominion Isotropic / Feature Request: Make resigning easier

« on: January 01, 2012, 11:54:59 pm »

It should be possible to resign at any time during any turn.  The "resign" button should also be more obvious. 

It seems as though, more often than not, if I'm way ahead in a game the other player will just disappear, possibly having closed the tab or similar.  It's very frustrating having to sit around and wait for a couple of minutes to force-resign the other person.  The resign button is hard to find, and I imagine many players don't know it's there.

Having a small child, I've also been in situations where I've needed to resign *right now* and the resign action has been unavailable to me.  It should be available at all times.  I'm sure it's more polite to use it on my turn, but it's even more polite to not have to pull the plug mid-turn due to an emergency.  And hey, sometimes I don't want to sit around and watch a 10 minute Scrying Pool turn.

213

Simulation / Re: Dominiate: a Dominion simulator that runs on the Web

« on: December 30, 2011, 12:16:42 pm »

Thanks for the help.  CoffeeScript v1.1.0 works fine for me.  I filed a bug to fix v1.2.0: https://github.com/rspeer/dominiate/issues/56.  I also sent a pull request with code that fixes a couple of the issues.

214

Simulation / Re: Dominiate: a Dominion simulator that runs on the Web

« on: December 27, 2011, 09:21:11 pm »

I'm having trouble getting the command-line client working, using the latest coffeescript, node, and dominiate code.

Basic info:

Code: [Select]

ecq ~/proj/dominiate [master] $ uname -mrs
Darwin 11.2.0 x86_64
ecq ~/proj/dominiate [master] $ node -v
v0.6.6
ecq ~/proj/dominiate [master] $ coffee -v
CoffeeScript version 1.2.0
ecq ~/proj/dominiate [master] $ git log --oneline -n 1
b26f896 mark Secret Chamber as done -- fixes #36
First problem:

Code: [Select]

ecq ~/proj/dominiate [master] $ ./play.coffee  strategies/BigMoney.coffee strategies/BigSmithy.coffee
SyntaxError: In /Users/patrick/proj/dominiate/basicAI.coffee, unmatched OUTDENT on line 438
    at SyntaxError (unknown source)
    at Lexer.error (/usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/lexer.js:584:13)
    at Lexer.pair (/usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/lexer.js:539:40)
    at Lexer.outdentToken (/usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/lexer.js:298:16)
    at Lexer.lineToken (/usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/lexer.js:276:14)
    at Lexer.tokenize (/usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/lexer.js:28:94)
    at /usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/coffee-script.js:40:34
    at Object..coffee (/usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/coffee-script.js:18:17)
    at Module.load (module.js:351:31)
    at Function._load (module.js:310:12)
The indentation for the default action priority list appears to be incorrect.  This is easy enough to fix, but I'm hoping the fact that I see it sheds some light on things.  Fixing that issue and moving on...

Code: [Select]

ecq ~/proj/dominiate [master*] $ git diff
diff --git a/basicAI.coffee b/basicAI.coffee
index 2127661..2d1b7c4 100644
--- a/basicAI.coffee
+++ b/basicAI.coffee
@@ -435,7 +435,7 @@ class BasicAI
     "Treasure Map"
     "Ambassador"
     "Throne Room"
-  ]
+    ]
   
   # `multipliedActionPriority` is similar to `actionPriority`, but is used when
   # we have played a Throne Room or King's Court.
ecq ~/proj/dominiate [master*] $ ./play.coffee  strategies/BigMoney.coffee strategies/BigSmithy.coffee
TypeError: object is not a function
    at Array.CALL_NON_FUNCTION_AS_CONSTRUCTOR (native)
    at /Users/patrick/proj/dominiate/play.coffee:14:10
    at /Users/patrick/proj/dominiate/play.coffee:33:23
    at /Users/patrick/proj/dominiate/play.coffee:36:6
    at Object.<anonymous> (/Users/patrick/proj/dominiate/play.coffee:64:3)
    at Object.<anonymous> (/Users/patrick/proj/dominiate/play.coffee:70:4)
    at Module._compile (module.js:432:26)
    at Object.run (/usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/coffee-script.js:68:25)
    at /usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/command.js:135:29
    at /usr/local/lib/node_modules/coffee-script/lib/coffee-script/command.js:110:18
This is where things get tricky for me, because I've barely used node.js.  Google suggests the problem is a circular reference.  Despite what the stack trace says, the offending line seems to be line 12: "ai = new BasicAI()" in play.coffee.  For some reason BasicAI is an array containing the BasicAI constructor, when it should be the constructor itself.  I poked around a little and found that on line 1201 of basicAI.coffee, immediately after defining the BasicAI class, BasicAI is an array.  Weird.

In case it was a circular reference, I tried swapping lines 6 and 7 of play.coffee (the lines that require gameState and basicAI) to see if that made a difference.  It does.  Swapping those two lines allows the program to run without exceptions, but neither AI buys anything and the simulation just runs on forever.

Thoughts?  Am I missing something simple?  What versions are known to work?  I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this info, or if the github bug tracker is more appropriate.  Let me know if I should move it.

Thanks for the help and the awesome project.  I can't wait to use it.

215

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Any news on the iphone app?

« on: December 27, 2011, 07:41:34 pm »

I got all thinking about Isotropic shutting down.  On Christmas, no less.  Then I thought about it some more, and there are actually some cool ways it could work, generate good money, and tick off very few people.

For instance, the official app could be essentially an Isotropic upgrade/rebranding with optional IOS, Android, and possibly desktop client apps.  Isotropic gets bought, it's infrastructure upgraded, and gets redesigned a little to incorporate the official artwork and maybe some branding.  Having looked at the messages the Isotropic server sends, it'd be relatively simple to create native apps that could speak to the same server as the web app.  Keep the web app free (maybe ad-supported, or having some sort of gold membership) and charge for the mobile/desktop apps.  I'd buy two copies for my household without giving it a second thought.

I have no basis for this speculation, but I wanted to illustrate that this could be something to get excited about, as opposed to apprehensive.  Here's hoping.

216

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Greatest Isotropic Moments of 2011

« on: December 17, 2011, 08:23:32 pm »

Possible Isotropic bug turns into bizarre KC-Watchtower combo for a 110 point turn.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/16/game-20111216-161830-9ea7002a.html

KC-Bridge game, but all the actions on the board were terminal.  Forge was there to keep the deck lean. 

On turn 13, I did KC-KC-Bridge-Forge, forging my last copper.  Because of the Bridge, I could forge it into anything costing up to $3.  Somehow I completely overlooked Steward and opted for Watchtower.  I knew it wouldn't do much when combined with KC, but I figured it was at least better than a copper.  Based on my reading of Forge, I expected to just get one Watchtower.  Instead, despite the fact that I had nothing to trash, it forced me to take 3 cards.  Not really thinking, I grabbed 2 more Watchtowers, with a sinking feeling that I had just clogged my engine with useless terminals.

Turn 14, nothing to do.

Turn 15.  KC-KC-KC-Bridge-Watchtower, drawing 6 cards, then a series of KCs, Bridges, and more Watchtowers.  I look up.  13 buys and a bunch of cash.  How much do Colonies cost?  $0.  I laughed, shocked at that result after the previous two turns, then bought all of the Colonies and half the Provinces.

Lessons learned: (1) Lacking any +action, KC can do fine by itself.  (2) KC-Watchtower can be really powerful.

217

Dominion Articles / Re: Hunting Party Combos

« on: December 15, 2011, 12:18:11 pm »

I know Geronimoo mentioned this, but things got lost in the discussion about Monument.

HP + Baron is really nice.

HP really wants +buy.  You want turns where you can pick up 2x HP, or Province + HP.  HP also virtually guarantees an Estate in your hand, unless you're trashing (and trashing in an HP deck is questionable).

I also like HP + Bank in Colony games.  Bank is cheaper than Platinum and is very often worth more when using HP.

218

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Greatest Isotropic Moments of 2011

« on: December 15, 2011, 11:49:34 am »

I think to myself "I can take the Curses, I've got King's Court and Hunting Party!"

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111214-210035-9b65d4d5.html

On turn 19, I decide that I'll declare a moral victory if I can finish the game in the black.

219

Dominion Articles / Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together

« on: December 15, 2011, 10:45:27 am »

Golem has been mentioned a few times.  Here's a non-obvious one that bit me the other day: Golem-Wharf

"But," you think, "Set up correctly, that would give me 13 cards and 5 buys every turn, guaranteed!"

It's the "Set up correctly" part that's broken.  It's virtually impossible to set up and keep going.  Wharf doesn't get discarded until the end of the next turn.  So, in order to keep this running, you need 4x Wharf.  Then you need enough Golems that can you're very likely to find one in any given set of 9 cards.  So, you're loading up your deck with terminals.  Not great.

But that's fine, you have that awesome 13 card hand.  Guess what it contains?  Probably at least one Wharf and a couple of Golems.  The Golems can't get to the Wharf/Wharves in your hand, and you can't play both because they're terminal.  So what's the remedy?  Buy more Wharves?  Ultimately that's just more dead cards to draw.  Buy Villages?  That just dilutes the engine.

While you're pondering the situation, your opponent buys the last Province, because it took you so long for you to accumulate all those Wharves and Golems.

220

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?

« on: December 11, 2011, 04:44:40 pm »

You can't have any sort of system which penalizes long turns without completely altering the strategic landscape of the game, which I think is completely unwarranted.  What would be nice is a better notification system so it's easier to do other things while they're playing their turn.

Yeah, it's difficult.  If I'm playing Dominion, I want to be playing Dominion, not surfing the web in another tab.  If I have 30 mins to play, I want to play 3 games, not one.  It's why many people veto Torturer, Witch, etc.  They make games drag.  I've never spent so long waiting to play as with Hamlet + Peddlers.  It's excruciating with a new player or someone who's lagging.  I've been tempted to play 2 games at once, but that seems rude.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to derail, but I'm just saying that the guy may have been legitimately extremely frustrated (as I have been), though his response was inappropriate.

221

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?

« on: December 11, 2011, 02:49:52 pm »

1:26 lazmaster: each turn is obnoxiously long

So, his behavior was completely unacceptable, but I understand the intense frustration.  It's very annoying to be the other guy when one player buys 8 hamlets.  Minion only compounds things.  Play all money, buy gold, go surf the web for 5 mins while the other guy clicks through all his decisions.  Come back to find a 4 card hand with few options.  Rinse and repeat.

I wish there were a way to track how long each player is taking, and/or have a chess clock type of system.  It does suck to want to play a few quick games only to spend half an hour where you are personally only playing for 5 mins.

222

Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: King's Court/Scheme

« on: December 09, 2011, 01:40:56 pm »

I'm not sure Masquerade wouldn't counter it, at least not consistently, though it would make things more interesting.  The combo allows you to return up to 6 actions to the top of your deck.  So you could return KC-KC-Scheme-Scheme-(cheap terminal)-(combo card).  You'd masquerade the cheap terminal.  Scheme-Scheme would draw your combo card with plenty of actions to play another cheap terminal.  Herbalist seems like a good terminal option, since it'd very nearly replace itself and actions are not a problem with this combo.

KC-Masquerade is the same as Masquerade, except the person who plays it can trash more.

223

Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: King's Court/Scheme

« on: December 08, 2011, 08:33:21 pm »

I have no doubt that KC-KC-Scheme-Scheme-Possession would work and almost certainly win once you got it set up.  I have two issues with it, though.  First, I think it'd take too long to set up compared to other options if you went after it single-mindedly, especially in Province games.  A few solitaire games showed me that KC/Scheme/Bridge can eat 8 provinces or 3 piles (solo) a couple of turns before the first triple Possession.  Even in the unlucky cases, Bridge has an insurmountable lead before Possession can hit.  Wharf performs similarly, though less consistently.  Anything with +buy and either +$ or +cards does well.  Possession is awesome, but it just doesn't get going fast enough.

The second issue is more psychological, probably.  Why build up an amazing deck only to spend 3/4 turns playing the other guy's poor, stagnating deck?

224

Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: King's Court/Scheme

« on: December 08, 2011, 11:34:44 am »

KC - KC - Scheme - Scheme - Saboteur

I just stumbled on this one.  It felt so broken that I felt bad playing it.  Once I had the cards in my deck, it took about 3 turns to set up the combo.  KC - Scheme or KC - KC - Scheme not only return to your deck, but they also let you play a 5-6 card hand.  You end up cycling through 8 cards a turn while setting up the combo, which means you're setting it up that much faster.  KC - KC - Scheme - Scheme - Saboteur gives you a 6-card hand after you play it, with more actions than you know what to do with. You can imagine what 3x Saboteur every turn does to the other guy's deck.

All of the counters you mentioned are Saboteur targets, making it much harder to use them.  Lighthouse and Moat will deal with this combo, but even then, you end up with a 6 card hand, tons of actions, and 3x Saboteur when the other player gets an unlucky draw.  With luck, Saboteur will also interrupt the other guy if he's building this combo.  It seems like the best counter is to play this combo and build it faster.

I'm not sure I like Possession for this combo.  The combo can accelerate your deck very quickly.  Possession is expensive and hard to buy.  When you play it, you end up getting a few extra turns, but you're stuck using the other guy's deck, which should be falling further and further behind your own.  In a Province game, it's possible that even something as simple as Market would be better, since you could start playing it several turns sooner, and it'd help you buy the Schemes and KCs along the way.  Every turn you play it, you end up playing with 9 cards, 4 buys, 9 actions, +$3.