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5401
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D2
« on: July 07, 2014, 11:13:40 pm »
My wagon is: Mail-mi (obviously not reading closely, if at all), XP (analytically and factually wrong, even about little things like whether the setup is open or not), Ichi (retaliatory, thinks he has some right for everyone to ignore his problematic misstatements), WW (probably scum), and Teproc.

The town just wants to lose this game, I guess?

WW being on this wagon is making me uneasy, I'll say that.

PPE : If you want to convince me to switch, I'd go for WW, but that's just me. Also I don't think we should lynch anyone today, I really want more from yuma especially.

Teproc's (first? ish?) attack on WW. Calls for more Yuma in the same post too. But I'll admit I was feeling very towny about Yuma at this point too. WW's non-commitment on the issue looks scummier than Teproc's outright being wrong.

5402
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D2
« on: July 07, 2014, 11:04:34 pm »
Caught up.

I'm pretty sure Ichi is town. I'm not voting for him today. I don't like the andrew lynch either.

I reread the whole thread and it gave me a large scum read on Eevee, especially based on his posts near the beginning of today. There was a preemptive defense of his hammer before anyone had even mentioned it and he tossed out a lot of vague "this is suspicious" comments without ever putting down a vote.

So vote: Eevee

A couple other red flags: mail-mi doesn't seem very active for someone who replaced in as town. I've had town reads on Yuma and Robz the whole game, and it's mostly there on the reread, but I've noticed a whole lot of buddying between them, and there's a little voice in the back of my head saying that they could be partners. And I've ignored the little voice in the back of my head before and regretted it.

I had that same voice in the back of my head, specifically from the buddying.

WW sheeps me a little regarding Yuma and Robz. I don't think he's expressed any suspicion (or much opinion at all) towards Yuma.

5403
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D1
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:59:58 pm »
Interesting that Robz feels the need to say that XP didn't nail the scumteam there. Interesting in that I, as town, didn't do that, and I don't believe yuma did either (and I think yuma is town).

Ichi's lawyers will be contacting you soon in regard to a trademark violation. As for the point about me... you can't argue with crazy...

Yuma responds to... Teproc calling him towny? He's saying that he didn't feel the need to respond to XP's scumteam call, but why's he talking to Teproc about it?

5404
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D2
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:57:27 pm »
No specific post for this, but I'm finding WW's whole scumslip thing scummy. Not the argument itself, but the way he slowly went away from it without ever explicitly abandoning it. As town, deciding that something you thought was a scumslip actually isn't is a much bigger thing than just "eh, I'll just let that slide".

I'm not going to push it.  I still think that him claiming he VT slipped is more likely from scum than town.  On the other hand, I'm pretty tempered from him acting more like town Xerxes than scum Xerxes in most other aspects.

And I disagree.  I think scum is more likely to push their argument than town is.  They don't want to appear hedgey or noncommittal.

That doesn't make sense. You either think it's a scumslip or you don't. If you think it's a scumslip, you should 100% be pushing for XP's lynch. The argument you made was that XP's comment could only come from scum. How can you still think that's right and not be voting XP ?

No, the argument I gave is that his position relies on him assuming scum didn't choose any abilities.  That's more likely to come from scum that didn't choose any abilities---or a traitor who knows he didn't get recruited---than from town, especially because he himself said he'd choose one, and almost everyone else said they'd choose at least one.

The first tension between WW and Teproc. As far as I can tell Teproc never brings it up again. But, at least there's more basis now for the idea that he investigated WW.

5405
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D1
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:52:59 pm »
It would be awesome if I nailed the scum team there. Well, I'll have to wait for afterward.

It's weird to be in only one game.

There doesn't seem to be very much argument activity going on, so it'll be hard to get a lynch. Want to start a wagon on DeDe, Andrew, or EgorK?

You didn't.

It may seem like it will be hard to get a lynch going, but it won't. It just happens at some point. But sure, I'll start a wagon on DeDe.

Vote: DeDe

Interesting that Robz feels the need to say that XP didn't nail the scumteam there. Interesting in that I, as town, didn't do that, and I don't believe yuma did either (and I think yuma is town).

Also in the same post we have a wagon vote (4th vote on DD), but I think that's null for Robz.

More "yuma is town!" from Teproc.

5406
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D2
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:49:27 pm »
I don't see the case on Andrew at all.  I also don't find anything scummy about Yuma's position on EgorK.

I'm pretty sure we should be lynching a Robz.

It's a minor point but WW's wording here is interesting. He doesn't say "Yuma is towny/isn't scummy" but makes the "safer" commentary on Yuma's position. Not damning but it stood out to me.

5407
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D4
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:47:35 pm »
Yuma goes after andrew pretty hard D2. It's off-topic but yeah I think andrew's probably town.

5408
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D2
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:46:03 pm »
Then we have the Ichi scumslip. As with all scumslips, it could easily have been done by town. Ichi misunderstood what the Bodyguard did, there was the bit about mail-mi replacing ADK which led me to believe ADK was dead for half a second (I had forgotten about the replacement), so I think his mistake could be that of a townie. What we need to look at is how he reacted to Robz' accusations, and I'm not sure yet about that. The first post where he wonders about a vig seems townie, but then the post where he says Robz' reasoning is "so complex" strikes me as weird, because really ? Seems like caught scum would maybe try to act as if Robz' argument was far-fetched.

In the end though, the fact that he kept posting despite it being late points me towards him being town. I think scum caught in a "slip" would just use that excuse to go to bed, and then see the next day how people reacted to the slip and what needs to be done about it.

Teproc I think is the only player who does anything useful with the Ichi stuff, so good on ya Teproc!

Yuma talks about Teproc in a positive way without committing to an actual read, is what this looks like to me.

5409
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D2
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:41:40 pm »
WW, regarding Bodyguard, I can see how what you're saying makes sense, in that Bodyguard is at its most useful when there's a claimed PR, but I think most people would just automatically use it. If you die instead of a PR it's great, if you die instead of a VT it's not that good, but at least it can clear someone if you crumb correctly. It doesn't look like faust breadcrumbed his target, but I think yuma is the most likely.

By the way I don't think your way of playing it would be good here, because it is fairly likely that mafia took JOAT and thus has strongman, which would allow them to kill a claimed PR through a Bodyguard.

Also, do you think faust was killed ? I suppose he was active and opposed the lynch, which isn't true of any of the other active players. Actually, I guess he might have been killed, why did I think that wasn't the case again ?

Well, that still makes them blow their JOAT.  Or if you bodyguard and your target is Strongman killed, do you both die?

Oh, I guess I see your point about breadcrumbing.  So if Faust gives hints that he's going to guard, e.g., Yuma, and Faust ends up dead, then we may be able to deduce that Yuma was targeted, and therefore must be town.  So Faust is kind of sacrificing himself for a one-shot confirmed town result.  (Modulo the uncertainty of whether or not he was the actual target).

Okay, so I redact my red herring comment somewhat. 

Well, I was thinking that Faust was certainly killed because bodyguarding didn't make sense.  I definitely would have waited to find PRs, though that probably would have been naive. 

I guess something to speak to him not being the target was that he was sort of automatically receiving scum points for leaving his vote on someone who wasn't getting lynched.  So scum could press that point and try to get him lynched.

WW makes this point out of the blue. Might be a holdover from when they were talking about the NK in the QT.

5410
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D2
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:33:24 pm »
XP, stop that. Push Robz' lynch if you want (pushing mislynches is certainly part of his scum meta), but don't do it out of spite. Robz wasn't the only one pushing for Egork's lynch, and in the end everyone who voted was responsible.

As far as the NK goes : I'm a very confident that faust was not the target scum chose. He was off-wagon and didn't have much suspicion. So, who did he bodyguard ? The post quoted above seems to indicate he targeted yuma, but it's an early post so he might have changed his mind... regardless, if we assum he would bodyguard one of those 4, he obviously didn't bodyguard me (thought I was scum) or Robz (leader of the mislynch wagon so less likely to be NKed). That leaves WW and yuma, and I think yma was a much more likely NK target as he had less suspicion than WW as I recall.

Which all lead me to believe yuma is town, something I already thought anyway, but whatever. Everyone should go to this process and think about who faust targeted, because this should make someone look a lot townier in your eyes, probably yuma, possibly WW.

This... is very interesting.

5411
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D4
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:01:53 pm »
So reached the end of day one, impressions:

Teproc is a lot more out-there during day one, while WW seems hanging back and cautious. Teproc also expresses a lot more scum reads on people who are now known to be town (and me, who I know to be town). But maybe that speaks to him having less information.

Yuma's D1 interactions are interesting. He seems to be going out of his way to not interact with/say anything about WW. I think the post I quoted above is pretty much the only one where he acknowledge's WW's existence. On the other hand he doesn't have a lot to say about Teproc either. There's a bit there but not much.

I don't think I've seen anything that rules out the crazy WW/Teproc team theory.

Taking a break and then onto D2.

5412
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D1
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:54:01 pm »
I think that Yuma, Faust, and Eevee are town.  I will not vote for them, but I would be willing to move to anyone else.

I am still holding off on EgorK until I hear from Robz. But right now I am leaning toward Andrew and want to see if we can get that going?

Join me there?

vote: Andrew

Yeah, wow.

5413
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D4
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:48:51 pm »
Regarding my lynch (it sticks out to me okay, and there was a lot more discussion about it D1 than I remembered): it was started by Yuma (scum), and the next people to get on are faust and Robz, people who are confirmed town. During the whole thing WW is there, and talking, but is neither defending me nor jumping on the wagon. Maybe he doesn't want to look too excited about a mislynch. Then teproc, who's been arguing pretty hard, switches to Egork just as it's getting close to going through. I'm not sure I'm getting useful information here but I guess I'll keep digging. It's pointing more and more toward WW being scum though.

5414
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D1
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:32:55 pm »
Actually, wait, there's a problem.

Xerxes slipped that he didn't realize town started with 2 PRs.  But he could still have a Town PR and still have that mindset---he could have received a PR and would have assumed that scum chose some powers.  For him to conclude that not realizing town starts with 2 PRs implies that he's VT means he would have to assume scum didn't choose any abilities.

Where's Ash!  A scumslip for real!

Vote: Xerxes

There was this whole incident. It's kind of hard to say what it means without knowing XP's alignment, but a few posts up WW was defending XP pretty hard. I'm not saying scum wouldn't make that kind of flip-flop but it does look somewhat towny.

As for XP, I'm having a hard time believing scum didn't discuss what powers they were choosing and what the implications were before hand, so if XP's misunderstanding the setup would have to be faked, and it doesn't look that way to me.

Also of note: the entirety of Yuma's initial reaction to WW's accusation:

lame!

I just realized my point here might be misconstrued: that was Yuma reacting to WW accusing XP of a scumslip. Which looks a little suspicious to me because it's a one-word reaction to a fairly controversial statement, and he never really comes back to it. Yuma might be signaling to his partner, "that's not going to fly, we're going for a different lynch" in a way that doesn't actively throw suspicion on his partner.

5415
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D1
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:29:26 pm »
Whose posts, in particular, do not have much content?
Xerxes, for example pointed out how Robz, Yuma, and Teproc didn't have a ton of content in their posts.
It seems like something easy to just throw out and make it seem like you have a case on someone.

That was a garbage, contentless post from Xerxes. When he made it the game had been going for (actually he never pointed out anything about Teproc or me, but did about Robz) about a day with everyone only posting theory talk because someone (faust?) decided that was a good way to spend our time. Calling out a lack of content on the first day of play is in my opinion far more devoid of content then anything Robz (or others) did because it is completely meaningless

When WW and Ichi are fighting, Yuma subtly comes down on WW's side. On the other reading through day one I'm having a really hard time seeing who WW's partner could be.

5416
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D4
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:26:14 pm »
XP spent most of D1 tunneling Yuma, and they got into something of a fight. Maybe that's scum engineering things but that doesn't seem like Yuma or XP's style.

5417
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D4
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:17:32 pm »
And then diverts attention to me, nice.

5418
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D1
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:17:10 pm »
Actually, wait, there's a problem.

Xerxes slipped that he didn't realize town started with 2 PRs.  But he could still have a Town PR and still have that mindset---he could have received a PR and would have assumed that scum chose some powers.  For him to conclude that not realizing town starts with 2 PRs implies that he's VT means he would have to assume scum didn't choose any abilities.

Where's Ash!  A scumslip for real!

Vote: Xerxes

There was this whole incident. It's kind of hard to say what it means without knowing XP's alignment, but a few posts up WW was defending XP pretty hard. I'm not saying scum wouldn't make that kind of flip-flop but it does look somewhat towny.

As for XP, I'm having a hard time believing scum didn't discuss what powers they were choosing and what the implications were before hand, so if XP's misunderstanding the setup would have to be faked, and it doesn't look that way to me.

Also of note: the entirety of Yuma's initial reaction to WW's accusation:

lame!

5419
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D1
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:00:27 pm »
I think I'd go JOAT and Bus Driver, or just JOAT. I think we overrated Daychat by a lot and I don't think it's really worth taking actually.

Recruit or not recruit is an interesting question, but recruiting makes you so much more vulnerable to the Goon Cop that I wouldn't do it this time.

The JOAT+Bus Driver option is appealing precisely because it completely negates the Goon Cop (well, I don't know if they could both be assigned to the same player but I'm assuming they couldn't).

I'm thinking that Recruit is the least useful.  The recruitee loses an ability, and you only gain knowledge of who the person is and ability to communicate with them.  Of course knowing more is better, but in some cases it's an advantage to know less, because it's easier to appear like you're trying to figure stuff out.  Plus as someone mentioned, it gives another Goon Cop target.

I wouldn't have seen the advantage in Daychat, either. 

JOAT I don't like as much, because there's a lot of analysis paralysis on when and if to use them. 

I've seen Rolecop used to good effect before in terms of fakeclaiming (Robz in Xmen and Ash in WoT), and Bus Driving is probably good with that.  So I might choose those two.  Perhaps JOAT as well.

Regarding the theory talk... despite what faust said from the mod perspective I didn't feel that it really did much of anything last time to help narrow down who was scum... mostly a red herring. But I guess something to talk about is nice?

I would not recruit nor get day talk. Rolecop becomes more useful the more roles you get (so I don't get why EgorK would say that) so I probably wouldn't take it either. I would probably take the JOAT and the bus Driver to make all players not guilty to the Goon Cop.

So first off, here are Teproc, WW and Yuma's responses to "what would you pick as scum" question. We already know that Yuma didn't do what he said here. Teproc explicitly mentions the Goon Cop which does give a little bit of credence to the idea that he is the Goon Cop. Obviously doesn't prove it but it's something.

What I was having a hard time with earlier was the fact that if Teproc is telling the truth, that means scum picked just recruit or just daychat (or we have more PRs in which case for god's sake say something), and I find it unbelievable that Yuma would do that. But then I realized that yuma could have been the recruited traitor on a team that was originally two newer players, something like WW and Ichi or WW and Andrew. And in retrospect, WW's answer looks very thought-out, a little like he's already discussed this with someone else. So did he recruit Yuma, then have Yuma explain in the scum QT that that was a bad idea? Possibly.

I keep going back and forth on this issue and I think I need to put it to rest. I keep telling myself that I can figure it out based on the setup but it's really going to have to come down to reads. But here's what I've come up with, and maybe it's helpful to the other players going over the thread.

5420
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D4
« on: July 07, 2014, 08:19:54 pm »
I'm about to do a reread then will post my thoughts.

5421
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D4
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:30:58 am »
Does the traitor know who his scumbuddies are?

For real?

5422
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M46 : Homeland Mafia (Day 1)
« on: July 07, 2014, 10:02:59 am »
I just realized that it's very unlikely that I'll be back before deadline. Scott is a better lynch than chairs but I'm feeling confident enough in Sudgy being a good lynch that I'm going to keep my vote there. I'll try to check in before deadline but I unfortunately can't make any promises.

5423
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M45 - Stack the Deck Rerun - D4
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:58:16 am »
Yeah, those points are good. Do we want PRs to claim?

unvote

Yes. I am a VT.

5424
Mafia Game Threads / Re: M46 : Homeland Mafia (Day 1)
« on: July 07, 2014, 09:53:14 am »
And there's no time to make any other lynch happen I think.

Not with that attitude!

5425
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Difficult non-Dominion Trivia!
« on: July 07, 2014, 12:56:23 am »
All of them have been in my kitchen.

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