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Messages - RisingJaguar

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26
Help! / Re: Critique of a Duke game
« on: November 27, 2012, 03:34:14 pm »
Totally not the point of your post, but that is pretty easily designed to go double tactician.  There are villages and terminals to play for money.  Only real way to draw cards is tactician (spice merchant/stables don't work together).  I think a combination of 2/3 Jester/cutpurses a turn would make it much more difficult to pull off duchy/duke. 

Trade route doesn't make so much sense early.  Even your play on T11 doesn't make much sense.  You chose to play trade route to kill a cutpurse and buy duchy/copper vs. cutpurse (same dollar) and buy a duchy.  You trade cutpurse+attack for a copper?  So the idea of trade route being useful any time before that is pretty hard to imagine. 

27
Help! / Re: Another miss - needed remodel?
« on: November 22, 2012, 03:29:56 pm »
I would think that Upgrade is a better open at $5 than Stables.
Upgrade/chapel > stable chapel? on a board with no +buy? 

The no +buy means overtrashing is a serious risk.  That's why I don't like the prospects of opening upgrade. 

28
Help! / Re: Another miss - needed remodel?
« on: November 22, 2012, 03:06:11 pm »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/22/game-20121122-112045-a756cd9f.html. Not my best work but it shows the sort of thing you can do here. You can use the spice merchant to trim out some of the copper and this allows the upgrade and remodel to work on the estates and higher value cards for more benefit. With no useful extra buy in the kingdom, the card gaining is an important way to improve your deck. This is especially true when you can harness the drawing power within the kingdom.

I'm afraid the stables isn't good enough for an opening buy. You start by discarding copper to get copper and estates. The quarry never comes into it either since you can gain the cheap actions components but you need to buy the expensive treasures.
To be fair, stable/chapel probably beats out SM/chapel, SM/nothing.  Although I agree that SM/silver looks quite enticing at 4/3 over 5/2 options. 

29
Help! / Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« on: November 22, 2012, 12:47:00 pm »
I am thankful for Bridge megaturn engines even when mine never gets around to firing!

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/22/game-20121122-090636-07ea3e29.html

What I went for: Workshop -> GM/Bridge
What he went for: Workshop -> GM/Bridge

We had the same general idea here, but obviously his attempt at actually building the engine went much better than mine!  We both went for two Workshops quickly, given the importance of Mining Village and Bridge.  He threw in Envoys, I threw in a Moneylender, and it quickly became apparent that his engine was going to beat mine on both speed and power.  I got the first GM, 5 bridges, and 4 MV, but I couldn't match his drawing power.

-Moneylender.  Yay or nay?  I feel like I should've gotten it earlier if I was going to get it.
-What's the order of priority here?  I needed more +Action but tried to balance my early buys and gains to mix in some terminals as well.  Mining Village isn't a great card if you're not trashing or using the +Action, which I wasn't really early on, but they were very important and I wanted more....but I needed the Bridges too...but not early....and Envoy worked out great for him....and geesh this is a complicated board.
-Buys at 5?  Lab's nifty, Mint wasn't terrible, but....the 4's, man.
-Too many workshops?  Not enough?
-How viable is Bridge/Workshop as the main focus here, as opposed to one part of a greater engine?  He was gaining Provinces towards the end!
-It became apparent pretty early on that he had me beat.  Should I have changed something or just stayed the course and hoped for a miracle?
-I waited to trash my MV's until my megaturn.  That turn never came, but if I'd trashed them, my deck would've been crippled.  Should I have gone ahead and done it at some point?
- Moneylender, good thing is you realized you should be getting a card that trashes earlier than later.  Bridge does not help you with your shenanigans with workshop, and bridge is a pretty poor opening.
- Everything else.  I think everything ties in with the order you did things.  So the point of your deck is to play Bridge and workshop for workshop bonuses.  The initial problem is that you can't play both at the same time because...
1. it would be hard to link them. 
2. You need + actions. 
So workshop takes care of number 2. but more importantly number 1. how do we link them together.  Like most engines, you have draws and trashing.  Moneylender helps with trashing so that should be purchased asap.  The other option would be to get draws and purchase Mint later on, which wouldn't be horrible either. 
So you kind of do one, but not get draws.  Then another problem is that you purchase too many treasures.  Treasure are nice, but not when you have limited space in your hand and deck.  Those silvers make it harder for you to pull any shenanigans.  So try and avoid $3 cards, unfortunately your opponent does it with the same sort of deck. 

In short, you jump straight to the end result without considering the bettering your whole deck first.  Also, avoid treasures when you have limited space and are planning to build an engine. 

30
Oh yes, I missed that. I wasn't keeping track of the number of Estates, but that was an easy pile to deplete.
It's hard to notice these things through a log.  I only noticed because I found it odd that the opponent had to buy out 3 estates for the confirmed loss. 

31
Turn 18 should have been the last turn. 

I'm not saying this out of annoyance for those that have to wait out ridiculously long turns (although I am on that boat).  I am saying this because the awareness to end the game as soon as possible is a key skill.  Winning 100% of games is better than the 2% chance they have to come back.  It might not matter here so much but developing this awareness is important.  Higher level games will require you to consider this well in advance of three piles. 

32
2012 / Re: Dominion Strategy 2012 Champs?
« on: November 19, 2012, 03:48:43 pm »
I'd be very much interested in this again, even if I have been rather busy as of late. 

I stumbled upon this by accident.  I think this post should be moved (or duplicated?) to general discussions to garner more attention for the time being.  I would think there would be a lot more discussion/activity for a topic which wants to have a couple hundred entrants.

33
Help! / Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« on: November 19, 2012, 02:48:08 pm »
I figured Remake would be a bit redundant if I could get Upgrade quickly, and with HT I could do just that and hold up a bit better against Torturer.  I was able to keep my deck fairly trim, and withstood a late-game comeback in a fairly straightforward game.  I came up with some questions, though.
The others have touched your main questions but this is definitely not the correct mind set. 

Forgoing a STRONG, OPENING trasher for a T3/T4, average trasher is never a good idea.  Especially when you intend to trash a significant portion of your deck.  Essentially, you should be purchasing remake the same games you would purchase chapel.

That's not to say trashing in this game is going to win, Vault-BM is pretty viable here.  Just more for general know-how.

34
Help! / Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« on: November 19, 2012, 08:59:17 am »
This was a super fun deck to run.  I won decisively, but I still want feedback.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/15/game-20121115-214840-6baf556b.html

What I went for: IW/Vineyard/Warehouse
What he went for: Tournament/Minion

A pretty straightforward engine, and my opponent and I didn't clash for any of my key cards.  I rushed the IW, picking up a few Potions on the way.  I then grabbed as many Warehouses and Spies as I could while waiting to pile out Vineyards.  It took a while to get rolling, but was fairly unstoppable once it did!

-Since I wasn't rushing Gardens or Silk Roads or anything else IW could gain, getting 9 IW before doing much else was a good idea, right?
-How many Potions, and when?  I didn't drain Vineyard as fast as I'd hoped.
-What's your choice for third pile?  I figured Warehouse would help me find IW and Potion the best, but Spy might have also worked well, and doesn't reduce handsize.  I figured Pearl Diver was too weak, and the benefits of Tournament didn't merit the risk of getting blocked in late game.
-Skip coins, right?  I know I didn't have much use for $ with this deck but it feels weird, man.
-I know the board had a good setup for it, but IW/Vineyard did really well I feel.  How much of it was due to being a strong combo, and how much was just the board/shuffle luck/my opponent?
You played very well in this game and did a lot of minute things very well.  I think it was very correct to grab potions right away and grab potions with your last ironworks when you have $3 already (so you can still buy an ironworks after). 

You avoided all silvers! Which is very good for this sort of deck, the idea would be to hit your potions as often as possible.  I first thought even a masq would help, but with warehouses galore, the trashing benefit wouldn't be of much use to you. 

I know you never hit $5, but minions would have been a nice addition to your deck.  Not so much so you should focus on money, but if it came along ($4 + ironworks), you should aim for it. 

The third pile isn't such a huge deal because if this was say a colony game, you WANT to prolong the game.  You should be gaining action cards and vineyards (so more pearl divers/tournaments) faster than they would be gaining colonies.  With that said, you want to have 'control' of when the game ends. 

35
Help! / Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« on: November 16, 2012, 08:41:41 am »
To add to the 5/2 - 4/3 split here: I think normally 4/3 is better because you do want to open potion/something here (probably trade route as it has MUCH better future use than lookout).  However, menagerie, king's court, and even wharf to some extent (if you went mass KC) provides superior drawing already.  The player with 4/3 has to either sacrifice early potion or early actions in order to reach higher dollars quickly.  Opening TR (or lookout)/potion is not a success to all the power $5/7 cards as you can see in your opponent end deck. 

Second potion is most definitely needed, but it needs to be delayed a little bit.  Since there are so many +buys floating around in your deck, that extra potion is literally equal to an extra vineyard, as opposed to other games where you're debating between $5P vineyard or 'normal' card.  Superior drawing and +buys makes this a must do. 

Timing is tough, but quick look, T11 looks perfect with $4 and future turns looking like most of the deck is drawn, but that's hindsight.  It is tougher to decide in game.  It's similar to a duke/duchy mirror where duchy (vineyards) is more important than dukes (actions) in score.  A little different since actions provide benefits to you.  Once those actions don't really benefit as much (so you're already drawing out your deck), then shift gears.

I don't think KC-Wharf can compete, because there are just too many cheap ways to draw cards and gain points.  I think KC-Wharf needs to pick up too many silvers along the way that it can't compete in either gaining more vineyards, or gaining more actions.  Also there's no strong $4 terminal that would really help boost early economy AND KC loves to spam (smithy is only the first, i'm thinking more monument like). 

36
Help! / Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« on: November 14, 2012, 12:06:22 pm »
1. Remake is a significantly better trasher than trade route/upgrade.  As like all trashers, it should be obtained right away (T3 should be remake). 
2. Conspirators need two main things to make it worth concentrating your deck around.  Action density, usually with trashers (remake, upgrade), and replayable actions or cantrips (border village, wishing well).  Easy method to get +buys (Wharves).  This game is almost designed for you to go conspirators.  See stef for proper balance of playable actions/+buys/conspirators. 

Then I tried a game myself opening WW/Remake, and I got the far more reasonable scenario of destroying one estate and getting to $3 max on my first reshuffle. The result... I got 8 provinces two turns sooner  :o

Also, providing your thoughts on the game is really helpful to those giving you advice as it allows us to know what you were thinking (and more importantly, what you have missed).  It'll also provide you, ideally, a progression in your thoughts as you post more often.

37
Help! / Re: I don't even know where to begin
« on: November 12, 2012, 08:54:05 am »
I get that black market has some nice cards, but how can you really envision a deck with remake, and not open with it?  I would think scheme/remake has to be the better opening, maybe remake/silver.  The order of acquiring should have been the other way around (with black market much later, like T7/8). 

38
Help! / Re: I win the village-wharf fight, lose the game?
« on: November 12, 2012, 08:47:34 am »
Two small things:
1. I semi-agree with smithy in this game.  I'm a little against it because it competes with $4 but it does seem relatively important here (not the arguement I'm making).  However, if you are planning to have a smithy in your deck, you should have opened with it.  Take some extra time to plan what you will purchase at every price range at the start, you'll come to the decision that yes I want Salvager/smithy soon, then open with it. 
2. Loan generally is a decent opening with salvager as together they clear out the stuff you don't want.  However with Mint in play, with the wharves to draw out all your cards, that's probably the way you want to go.  So something like Salvager/silver, silver/silver to go towards a Wharf/BM start then transition to Mint if it calls for it (mostly yes). 

39
Game Reports / Re: Possible improvements?
« on: November 09, 2012, 10:46:38 am »
If you're going to really follow through with this deck, and it is good enough to make me think it could play against oracle, there is absolutely no reason to really have any sort of coin in your deck.  You'd want to be able to get money from the secret chamber and not the treasures.  Think treasures in an minion deck, it isn't nearly as productive as it normally would be. 

Thus, upgrades should be of most importance to eliminate coppers and eventually silvers -> WV.  Golds aren't important whatsoever to this deck. That's the biggest improvement.  So T6 should have been an upgrade as well. 

40
Game Reports / Re: Is Apothecary that good?
« on: November 08, 2012, 03:32:58 pm »
Thanks RJ for your detailed answer.

I see that my opponent didn't play optimally.
The question is if I would have won if he had played from turn 9 on optimally? I mean I was thinking about resigning. And I would've certainly done that if Apothecary weren't on the board as "consolidation prize".

But: This game learned me not to give up even if you lose the curse war badly. You still have to see the whole situation and you need to know that to do after the curse war is over and how your deck will look like. I think that's a very interesting game.
In short, yeah you seem to have been fine as I think your strategy was better and your luck isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.  I think T9 itself was bad, but really other then that, you're gaining either $5 cards or gaining multiple actions a turn.  That's pretty darn good.  Your opponent has smuggler, 2 salvagers, and a wharf by that time.  The two extra curses are on the 'next shuffle'.  Other way around, probably puts you at a significant disadvantage. 

I can see why you were down though with T9 and being down 3-1 on curse war.  But on a closer look, it isn't as bad as you'd think.

One thing I don't get, why on T4/T7 you don't play shanty before the wharf... I don't see any reason why not to. 

41
Help! / Re: I win the village-wharf fight, lose the game?
« on: November 08, 2012, 12:12:07 pm »
I think I've looked at this before with the simulator and wharf+trader is slightly better than just wharves+treasure. Instead of going quite heavily into villages there may be some advantage from using a lone walled village to help with draws in a treasure heavy deck.

For the game as played, buy a duchy on turn 11 instead of the wharf.
I'm okay with T11 Wharf, because with three wharves played and a reshuffle about to occur, wharves are needed in his deck.  T12 probably should have been a duchy if you wanted to continue that path. 

While T12 is a pretty big bummer not to have WV connect with wharves with 11 cards, I don't see the need to buy province on T11.  I would have liked more villages at that point with the reshuffle on its way (so 2 wharves + WV). 

I think the biggest difference between the normal village+wharf and this is that there is a treasure building mechanism in trader.  That makes things less likely to connect, which is fine as silvers/wharves are fine.  However, doing both silver building and looking to connect wharf/village is conflicting choices. 

Trader/wharf BM may be able to work, but you would lose a LOT of end game control to the wharf/village player.  Walled village would be nice in that sort of scenario for BM player. 

42
Game Reports / Re: Is Apothecary that good?
« on: November 08, 2012, 11:47:12 am »
Things your opponent didn't do so well:
- Bought two silvers - should have been shanty towns.  He ends up having a couple more terminal collisions than you partly because of this.
- Bought third familiar - easily should have been apothecary, then there's a ripple effect of not buying enough apothecaries (can't access potions fast enough)
- Number 2 leads to not being able to get vineyards as easily.
- 2nd Wharf bought on T18, which I think was really key for easy access for +buys.
- Never really is able to get apothecary + other action in same turn (not his fault, and you get this like 3 times?). 

I think also part of the problem was he didn't appear ready to transition over the vineyards as smoothly.  Mainly because he doesn't load up on shanty, but it just seems like he followed you into vineyards.  I think you win on the basis of number 1, 2, and 4. 

Your overall luck isn't as horrible as you'd think.  Clearly curse war sucked for you, but you had a lead on $5 cards all the way through (which looks mightly important with bazaars/wharf) and lead on apothecary (this is more on you as he buys familiar and stables over apothecary).  Apothecary/Wharf on T3/T4 is pretty darn sick. 

But how I exactly did I win this? I didn't bought a single Silver which was important for my Apothecaries. And I think my Wharves were very important, more important than Stables, even though it's terminal and Apothecary + Stables isn't a bad combo. But I'm still not exactly sure how I won this. Should I maybe totally skipped Familiar here and just load up on Shanty Towns (later Bazaars), Wharves and Apothecaries? Is Apothecary + Salvager a really good defense to Familiar on its own?

For overall strategy, familiar does not look skippable.  Salvager as only trasher is not going to cut it.  Especially since the end result needs to be vineyards anyways, it doesn't really make sense to start salvager/silver, silver/silver, to go bazaar/wharf? 

Salvager is a great complement here because the ability to clear out non-coppers and provide neccessary +buy.  Wharf and Familiars presence makes stables pretty skippable.  That hand with stables/non-coppers was a lot more likely then any other normal game.  Wharf just provides the consistency you'd want, especially when there are useable +actions here. 

Only really works with vineyards or all the pieces you accumulate aren't really helpful to the end cause.  Here though, it certainly adds to the final score.

Your strategy is pretty close to what I would do, of course familiar if 3P.  I think I might go apothecary on second 3P but that's with hindsight.  One or two salvagers, depending on if I grab wharf soon.  Shanty towns all day. 

tl;dr: Luck wasn't that bad, and your strategy was perfectly fine.  Whole different story if vineyards isn't there tho. 

43
Help! / Re: Should I have avoided the Baron on this set? Moneylender?
« on: October 31, 2012, 05:18:45 pm »
The crazy part is, you weren't far off from winning...

44
Help! / Re: Should I have avoided the Baron on this set? Moneylender?
« on: October 31, 2012, 05:17:01 pm »
Moneylender was probably a bad idea early. When you're floundering in curses, the money from Coppers isn't so bad. Also it's an extra terminal. Your opponent may have had the right idea in getting a Quarry, to help pick up Hunting Parties even in a curse-filled deck; not sure. It only helped him once.

By turn 6, you had three terminals - Baron, Moneylender, Sea Hag. And only one Hunting Party and no Bazaars yet.

True to form, on turn 8 your Sea Hag and Moneylender collide. On turn 9 your Baron and Moneylender collide (though you do get Baron with estate). On turn 10 your Sea Hag and Moneylender collide. Because of the collisions, you spend your buy on a Bazaar instead of another Hunting Party.
To add to this, it isn't an accident he wins the curse war 7-3.  The hitting your sea hag on T5 while missing his T3/T4 sea hag puts you relatively similar... so i doubt that's the reason... He wins because he is able to play sea hag nearly every turn.  Why?

He keeps his deck relatively lean (other then what I think is a wasteful quarry).  He focuses solely on gaining more hunting parties turn after turn.  This adds up to multiple hunting parties sifting through the deck to find sea hag, the most important terminal at the start.  It just hurts too much. 

Now while I agree with Baron at some point, because it does work well with hunting party more than most, I believe cursing is much more helpful than what baron could do.  It should have been grabbed near the end of the curse war and only if you have the hunting parties to support such shenanigans. 

Moneylender should never be purchased to "boost money quickly".  It is used for the main reason to slowly trash away coppers.  Here that is counter productive to Hunting party (which would sift through them anyways, so you're not getting the full benefit here) and it is a heavily cursed game (which often leads to less money density, although HP does cover it up which leads me to point 1).

Essentially, all $3-4 should have been silvers.  It sounds boring, but it aligns with Hunting party gaining (money) and hunting party action (less identical cards).

45
Help! / Re: What went haywire?
« on: October 29, 2012, 01:22:55 pm »
Also, with the addition of tunnel, suddenly you can purchase fairgrounds with your for 4VP and cut your opponent off on 6VP (so sorta effectively worth 5VP but not really). 

Your opponent was playing for a mirror match, which her decisions would have been decent.  It just makes it hard for her to recoup when you're playing BM-Witch on a 5/2 split.  With these tiny adjustments, your 7-3 curse split would have carried you through.

46
Help! / Re: What went haywire?
« on: October 29, 2012, 01:20:30 pm »
At 5/2, I think you want to open Witch/Secret chamber, even though you haven't seen your opponent buy a Young Witch.  Witch/Secret chamber vs. non-opening curser is probably better than Witch/nothing vs. curser. 

I do not think Banks are any good here other then 15th card for fairgrounds.  The situations that it is more useful in a curse/Alt-VP game than gold is not even close the times when you can't reach Duchy/FG.  T25 could have been estate/tunnel rather than $1 and that's not due to shuffle luck really. 

I also don't understand why you don't buy tunnels on T21/T27... 3 pile wasn't coming to an end I believe...

47
I'm hoping that Goko becomes aware of this thread and it influences them to improve the multiplayer on their site.
Currently Goko reports that 5% of played games have 2 or more humans. Five percent, that is not a typo. Obv. making games with multiple humans work better will increase that number, but it's still a significant factor in just how high of a priority this stuff should end up. Better meeting room / matchmaking still made Ted's latest top 7 things list - call it top 8 since Jay is pushing for a German version, which wasn't on the list.

I think that's mixing cause with effect.  No one plays multiplayer because it takes a long time to find a game and there's no matchmaking.  Playing vs. computer is quick and simple.  Want to play multiplayer?  Go to Iso, as long as it exists, because it is still better than Goko at multiplayer.
Dude, so are you suggesting that making games with multiple humans work better would increase that number? Somehow I felt like I covered that ground.
I read this the same as Kirian...

Goko only has 5% multiplayer games, thus fixing multiplayer games isn't of the highest priority.  For what it is worth, it is in the top 7, sorta top 8, list of things to fix.

The one line about better multiplayer games will entice others to come, seems muddled up in there especially since it has a big but after it. 

48
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Grand Market vs Platinum
« on: October 24, 2012, 10:44:27 am »
However, it's not hard to create a map between coin in hand and victory gain, and we could use that to compare the two (I leave this as an exercise for the reader).

Assuming we're happy to gain Duchies but not Estates we'd have:
$22-23 -> 20
$19-21 -> 16
$16-18 -> 13
$11-15 -> 10
$8-10 -> 6
$5-7 -> 3

From there, you just work out the odds of getting each amount and multiply by the value you're mapping to.
If we are honestly going down this route.  Lets say said deck has 4 colonies and 9 GMs, gets $18 dollars... what would you buy? 

The matter is that the previous example makes no sense in reality.  Tell me a time when my deck contents does not include a trasher yet everything is trashed, have 9 GMs and 4 colonies, and i'm deciding with my $18 what to buy?

I was using the situation to proxy what to do, when faced with 4 terminal cards, and a good chunk of GMs, what should you purchase.  I came out with similar numbers for expected return, and chose consistency over extra potential. 

So extrapolating that to an engine, lets say a deck of 5 alchemist and similar situation, barely draw all my cards.  I choose GM.

49
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Steward Conundrums
« on: October 24, 2012, 10:36:25 am »
One last thing to generally consider, especially for remake/steward which are "must trash two" cards, is the ability to purchase cheap cantrips. 

With this, it can get really frustrating during mid-game when you have similar tough choices to make between marginal trashing and marginal gains.  It's an awkward spot, often caused by only being able to purchase silver with $3.  Except this time, trashing often isn't as important anymore.  The cheap cantrips will also allow you to cycle the trasher more often to facilitate your engine needs. 

Having cards to avoid that, say village, menagerie, can help line up cards that want to be trashed.

50
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Steward Conundrums
« on: October 24, 2012, 10:26:12 am »
Steward does provide excellent flexibility, but that flexibility shouldn't be used at the start all that often.  The flexibility should be used when trashing isn't as important anymore (Assuming it was important at the start).  We all know we have to manage our terminals, especially in a BM setting.  It puts players in a serious disadvantage if they aim for BM with a steward that's used as a silver in nearly every case. 

Everyone hit on most of the trashing points.  Things to add:

Case 1. The benefit of being able to play multiple familiars is deadly.  If we have two players, say chapel-> BMish and Chapel -> familiar.  Normally chapel eliminates familiars ability.  Suddenly, when a chapelled deck can play multiple familiars against a BM deck, which cannot reliably connect trasher + curses, it does damage.

Case 2: Only time i'd consider Gold (or a power card), is if I opened steward/steward.  This would be a time when I would need to balance engine building components.  Trashing vs. non+buy gaining of engine parts. Then again, I'd probably make that decision if engine parts gaining was important, steward/steward would be pretty bad in that scenario. 

In short, Steward is amazing (that's a little bit of an overstatement, but I do love it).  However, your T3/T4 actions with steward, should be predetermined essentially. 

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