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351

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #174: Back to the Future

« on: January 11, 2023, 04:36:26 pm »

I may or may not think of something more interesting to submit instead.
I had something else in the works but it was kind of convoluted so I scrapped it, haha.

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Treasure
Notice that no Treasure worth $2 costs $4.
Also notice the Treasures worth $1 and cost at least $5 are about as powerful as Drachma, Pickaxe being an example.

Sure, Gondola does not exist and a trasher / Loot-Remodeler like Pickaxe is so easily comparable to an Exiler like Drachma. 

352

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #174: Back to the Future

« on: January 11, 2023, 04:17:25 pm »

Mischaracterize? You literally wrote in your last post that Drachma is more powerful and useful than Sanctuary and I responded to this.

353

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #174: Back to the Futur

« on: January 11, 2023, 02:41:56 pm »

I may or may not think of something more interesting to submit instead.
I had something else in the works but it was kind of convoluted so I scrapped it, haha.

That is so crazy good. It has got to cost more - $5, or maybe $6.
At $5, i'd give it a small nerf, like: "When gained, each other play gains a Silver".

This would be far too weak at $5, the price point of Sanctuary, a cantrip Exiler that is brilliant in all phases of the game.
Drachma on the other hand is a high skill card. You gotta manage timing and shuffling quite well for the card to do its job well. Keep in mind that, like with Secluded Shrine, having two copies of Drachma in play does not help you; they are both discarded when you gain the first Victory card.

Sanctuary, is proof that Drachma should cost at least $5. With Sanctuary it must collide with the card you want to Exile, which would require both luck and skill. Drachma is a low-skill card for it just sits there waiting - allowing it to be much more powerful/useful than Sanctuary.
Alternatively, making Drachma worth $1, instead of worth $2 would make this card's cost more reasonable at $4.
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Exile

This is beyond wrong. Sanctuary does a plethora of useful things: Exile crap, gift you 3VPs that you would otherwise trash, provide an extra Buy, exile Green. And all without clogging your deck. It is a very centralizing card and you can run two or even three copies.

Drachma, well, would you open with it? Sure, if you would like that Silver to disappear, Drachma does that job (and unlike Sanctuary does not do anything anymore until you start to green). That is why there are likely better $4s or $3s to open with. In all other situations you only want it in the late game, shortly before you green. But you rarely want a Silver in this situation, a fairly crappy stop card. As already pointed out, Drachma does not work in two Provinces engines (well, it does, but you can only use one copy at a time).

So yeah, Sanctuary is overpowered and low skill whereas Drachma is tricky to evaluate, likely to be only good in some Kingdoms and thus a high skill card.

354

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #174: Back to the Future

« on: January 11, 2023, 01:51:41 pm »

I may or may not think of something more interesting to submit instead.
I had something else in the works but it was kind of convoluted so I scrapped it, haha.

That is so crazy good. It has got to cost more - $5, or maybe $6.
At $5, i'd give it a small nerf, like: "When gained, each other play gains a Silver".

This would be far too weak at $5, the price point of Sanctuary, a cantrip Exiler that is brilliant in all phases of the game.
Drachma on the other hand is a high skill card. You gotta manage timing and shuffling quite well for the card to do its job well. Keep in mind that, like with Secluded Shrine, having two copies of Drachma in play does not help you; they are both discarded when you gain the first Victory card.

355

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Changing the definition of" buy" to no longer mean "gain" as well?

« on: January 11, 2023, 11:34:44 am »

I am not sure why cards like Haggler got this errata recently : This turn , when you gain a card , if you bought it , gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

Why does this card need to say " when you gain a card , if you bought it"?

When you buy a card , by default it means you "gained" it as well.

It would make me assume that some dominion players and/or the community are forgetting that buy also means gaining it as well.

If this is the case , I think it would be easier to just change the definition of "Buy" to no longer mean "gain" as well.

Changing "Buy" to exactly mean just "Buy" and leaving "Gain" to exactly mean just "Gain"

I know this would change how a lot of certain cards would work , but i think it would be easier for players to not have to remember that "Buy" also means you "gained" it as well.


Thoughts regarding this change?

You can read about the change of Buy triggers in the secret history.
I am not a fan of this very change as the issue of forgetting that buy implies gain does not occur in my gaming group, as the wording is messy and as it makes some strong cards like Port even stronger.

But there are also good reasons for the change and it simply is as it is.

356

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: January 09, 2023, 04:22:31 pm »

Well, conditional Copper junkers like Swindler, Jester and Mountebank are fine.

357

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments Thread

« on: January 09, 2023, 12:18:42 pm »

Got a turn 1 Province with Inherited Animal Fair

Was that the right move? Dunno the Kingdom, but feels wrong to me...

I agree. This is so unusual that it is hard to be sure about, but my hunch is that building up is nearly always better than opening Provinxe.

358

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 53: Climb Every Mount

« on: January 07, 2023, 10:57:57 am »

359

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Lets discuss- Silver mine

« on: January 06, 2023, 07:47:18 am »

You have to remember which expansion this is part of... it doesn't just gain Silver and Potion... it gains Cage, Jewelled Egg, Abundance, Crucible, Gondola, and Rope.

But which of these cards do you want more than 2 of? I get it if there are 2 good treasures that cost 4 or less I the same kingdom as the mine, but that application is even more narrow than counting house.

Like all of the Ropes (semi-delayed Market that trashes)? Like plenty of Eggs to get Loot? Like lots of Abundances to build up or create funky megaturns?

I totally agree with you that the card is weak if it can only gain Silvers. But in Plunder it is anything but weak.

360

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Lets discuss- Silver mine

« on: January 05, 2023, 01:37:51 pm »

It is virtually strictly inferior to Sculptor and thus a weak card in total random.
In Plunder it is a powerhouse.

361

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #173: New Year's Resolutions

« on: January 03, 2023, 02:58:34 pm »

Mansion
$5 - Action Victory
+2 Actions
You may discard an Action card for +2 Cards.
2
 
Notes: Intended to replace Harem. A Village that gave 2 VP for $5 would be a bit too obvious to buy at a time when you’d consider buying Duchy for $5.
 
My Dominion resolution is to teach someone new to play the game. And for new players starting with simple cards is best. The second editions of Base and Intrigue are great for that, with a few cards as exceptions.
 
Harem is simple but it is weak and many people (myself included) dislike the flavor. And Intrigue could use another source of +Actions, due to the weakness or conditionality of most of the current sources. (Base is also light on +Actions relative to later expansions, but the sources of +Actions are stronger).

I love your goal to make a card designed to help new players learn and enjoy dominion. I disagree that a new player would enjoy your current design. Discarding the cool interesting looking action cards is something newer players would shy away from. In my experience newer players try to sample too many unique cards and do not value deck constancy cards like, trashes, shifters, and +Actions cards. Though they tend to quickly learn to love +actions cards. Though your card does have the its green and does something part which newer players overvalue (imo) as they see VP which they know is important but they never grab Duchies very often. Maybe if it your are replacing Harem try to make a simple but decent Treasure Victory card.

Sure, it is not a simple card. But it covers a similar timing spot as Harem, late game Duchy alternative, and it does something more useful for most decks than a 2 VP Silver.
Obviously it is not an engine enabler, i.e. if it is the only splitter BM dominates, but a support card for an already running engine.

362

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #173: New Year's Resolutions

« on: January 03, 2023, 01:48:20 am »

This looks too good. You will either get another Diet, which you need anyway, or a $5 or a Gold. Chapel at least creates the trap of early overthinning.

363

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards

« on: January 02, 2023, 03:34:10 pm »

Tools should simply cost $5. I find the argument that it is priced cheaper because it sucks as a opener beyond weird.

Nearby neatly illustrates the mess of getting rid of on-buy triggers.

364

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #173: New Year's Resolutions

« on: January 02, 2023, 01:32:40 pm »

My resolution is to finish the Alchemy 2nd Edition (A2e) set i am working on. One of the issues i see with Alchemy is the lack of Treasures to support Potion. So here was the first card i made to address this issue. This card is intended to be added to the base cards.


Here is another card intended to replace a Copper or two.

I think Mystic's Mixture makes it too easy to access Potion cards. You could roll with just one University or you could open with Apothecary without striving to get another one.
Mage Potion, well, sure, if you got two buys you can sometimes afford two Potion cards, but I think it is either irrelevant or again too good. Imagine Vineyard, that becomes pretty crazy.

Potion cards are well designed to compensate for the downside of an extra stop card in your deck as well as the opportunity cost of getting that very stop card. I don't think it is necessary to mess with the fundamentals here.

365

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #173: New Year's Resolutions

« on: January 01, 2023, 11:54:07 pm »

Mine would perhaps work at $4 or if it were non-terminal, or both. Does being able to Mine Actions really push it from $4/$5 into $6 territory? I seriously doubt it, that is an edge case.
I would try this at $4 and $5.

Mine is a decent card when Platinum is available.

Not in my experience. The jump from Gold to Platinum is nice when you can pull it off but most trashers beat Mine tempo-wise, i.e. trashing down and then buying Platinum is just quicker.
$6 is definitely too expensive for a card that needs a serious buff to be viable at all.

366

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #173: New Year's Resolutions

« on: January 01, 2023, 04:02:33 am »

Mine would perhaps work at $4 or if it were non-terminal, or both. Does being able to Mine Actions really push it from $4/$5 into $6 territory? I seriously doubt it, that is an edge case.
I would try this at $4 and $5.

367

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online

« on: December 28, 2022, 05:35:31 pm »

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.

Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.

Has he said that? Previously Donald clearly stated that only specific cards should be Treasures:

Treasures should make money; I made an exception for a card that wanted to be played in the buy phase. They should feel like treasures - they make money, or, there's Horn of Plenty again, gain cards.

Poster asked DXV about why Cage is a Treasure, DXV answered: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg899190#msg899190

Short version: Cage is a Treasure just because. Shaman could be a Treasure just because. There are of course differences between Actions and Treasures, as witnessed by that tedious discussion about Candlestick Maker and Ducat, but Shaman would be virtually the same if it were a Copper. It being a Treasure or Action is utterly trivial as the beauty of that very design does not hinge on which type it has.

368

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online

« on: December 28, 2022, 02:55:26 pm »

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.

Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.

369

Let's Discuss ... / Re: I don't like Barbarian

« on: December 28, 2022, 02:48:33 pm »

Sure, Swindler is also swingy (and Swindler hitting a $5 is far more nasty than Barbarian doing so). But gee, it is not as if Dominion is not a high luck game. Plenty of Kingdoms where an inferior player can beat a better player simply due to 5/2 vs. 3/4.

370

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online

« on: December 28, 2022, 02:43:58 pm »

While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.

As far as I can tell, you're the only one who has mentioned the notion that treasures should always produce coins. That seems to be an assumption you made upon hearing people wonder why Cage is a treasure; "They must be confused that it's not making any coins." It's also kind of a weird assumption since, as you mentioned, it's not exactly a new thing for treasures to not make coins; certainly other people have noticed this.

Nope. I responded to a post which responded to this post:

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

You can of course read „indirectly giving money“ as gaining … but that is a fetch given that you could also read thinning as increasing the average Coin yield of your deck or drawing cards as a way to play more Coin producing stuff or whatever.

371

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online

« on: December 28, 2022, 02:09:44 am »

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

372

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 52: It only gets Charter

« on: December 27, 2022, 02:44:57 pm »

Paying for Coffers never worked but with this cool Event variant you can pull it off.

This could in theory lead to a stalemate in hyperslogs (no trashers, heavy junking like Cultist or Mountebank) in which the dominant strategy at a particular game stage is to only buy Plunder and cash it in for VPs. But I think that this does not occur, you do after all still have turns in which you buy other stuff besides Plunder.
This nonetheless makes me wonder whether the VP option is totally sound.

There's already an official card named Plunder.

Sure, but this is a landscape so no rule issues with Doctor or Wishing Well.

373

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online

« on: December 27, 2022, 02:41:36 pm »

It is not as if Actions are what you should always and above all do while Treasures are some kind of niche card category that is only done when it is absolutely mechanically necessary. Cage could very well be a non-terminal Action but, big surprise, that non-terminal is implemented as a Treasure in an expansion with a heavy focus on Treasures.

Treasures can do whatever the designer wants them to do. And while no producing Coins is unusual, as witnessed by the huge zero on the first version of Horn of Plenty, it is now fairly common and in my opinion the game is better due to this increasing design flexibility concerning the yellow stuff.

374

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 52: It only gets Charter

« on: December 27, 2022, 02:19:01 pm »

Paying for Coffers never worked but with this cool Event variant you can pull it off.

This could in theory lead to a stalemate in hyperslogs (no trashers, heavy junking like Cultist or Mountebank) in which the dominant strategy at a particular game stage is to only buy Plunder and cash it in for VPs. But I think that this does not occur, you do after all still have turns in which you buy other stuff besides Plunder.
This nonetheless makes me wonder whether the VP option is totally sound.

375

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Plunder is online

« on: December 27, 2022, 02:01:24 pm »

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

I too was confused how this card 'qualified' as a Treasure?  I like the mechanics of the card the the 'Treasure' type is confusing, as it seemed more like an Action - Duration Type

While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.