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3376
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards: Blessing
« on: June 14, 2019, 01:16:09 pm »
Inspired by this week's contest*, here's a one-shot reaction for Worshippers, an attempt at TfB, since standard TfB isn't possible with the deferred trashing:



(*) this is not my entry, since it's exclusively for Worshippers, though my actual entry is purposefully written to work with them (as it deals with all tokens that you can "spend"). I'll post that one here once the contest is over.



Notes / Questions:

In an earlier post I asked, "What's the general consensus on Landmarks, Event, Projects that involve mechanics that won't be in every game? The only official ones I can think of are Tomb, and Sewers, in games with no trashing."

I can now expand that question to all cards in general, since this card is useless without Worshippers.

One concern is that it could be used in attacks as a stop card.

Outside of specifying rules that say "only use with other cards that give Worshippers", I could make it part of a split pile, though I don't like the thought of only having 5 of them. (or possible only 5 of the top card)

How have others handled similar situations?



3377
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards: Mystical Chest
« on: June 14, 2019, 12:59:36 pm »
This would be an awesome card to use Procession on. :)

Sure. This is also true of most of the other cards that were part of that week's contest, by virtue of the challenge requirements.

Unless someone feels strongly that the simpler text is worth it, I think I'll keep the current version, as I like the idea of getting to select which hex you want to receive, and possibly forcing the other player(s) to think about whether it's worth getting another boon that could also give you a weaker hex.

3378
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 14, 2019, 12:47:45 pm »
Tough challenge this week.

Rather than come up with a card that would competes with other cards you may prefer to buy, I decided to try something a little different: a 0 card cost, that doesn't do much (and in fact, will sometimes get in the way), but still might be worth an extra buy.

Rabbits are a one shot "throne room" for tokens.

[Note: it gives +1 card before repeating the effect of the token, in order to also work better with my entry from last week: Worshippers. Feel free to ignore them when evaluating (or not)]



Changelog:
v0.1 - initial

FAQ:
• Recommended to use only with Kingdoms having at least one card that gives tokens.
• When you trash Rabbits, you repeat the effect of the token, e.g. if you removed a Villager from it's mat, you would get +1 Action (in addition to the Action you got from removing the Villager).

Secret History:
I'm considering making this a base card and having the FAQ say something like, "In games that use Villagers or Coffers [or Worshippers], add this as a base card X% of the time."

Frankly, it's not worded very well. I know what it means due to what you've said outside of the card, but when I first looked at it, I thought "repeat what effect?" It should say "and repeat the token's effect."

Fair enough. I played around with several versions of the text (your suggestion being one of them) and hoped this one with fewer words would be clear enough. Obviously not, so I'll change for the next version.

Aside from the text, though any thoughts on the concept?

It's purposefully designed to be a card that doesn't do much, but could work well with cards that plan your next turn (hence the top decking).

Is this a card you would consider using an extra buy on sometimes or is it just a dud and I should scrap the concept completely?


3379
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 13, 2019, 05:24:32 pm »
[THIS IS NO LONGER MY ENTRY FOR THIS WEEK'S CHALLENGE. NEW ENTRY IS RETRIEVER]

Tough challenge this week.

Rather than come up with a card that would competes with other cards you may prefer to buy, I decided to try something a little different: a 0 card cost, that doesn't do much (and in fact, will sometimes get in the way), but still might be worth an extra buy.

Rabbits are a one shot "throne room" for tokens.

[Note: it gives +1 card before repeating the effect of the token, in order to also work better with my entry from last week: Worshippers. Feel free to ignore them when evaluating (or not)]



Changelog:
v0.1 - initial

FAQ:
• Recommended to use only with Kingdoms having at least one card that gives tokens.
• When you trash Rabbits, you repeat the effect of the token, e.g. if you removed a Villager from it's mat, you would get +1 Action (in addition to the Action you got from removing the Villager).

Secret History:
I'm considering making this a base card and having the FAQ say something like, "In games that use Villagers or Coffers [or Worshippers], add this as a base card X% of the time."

3380
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 12, 2019, 03:45:05 pm »
Right, I actually meant to talk about how simply not being a Treasure gives it disadvantages over Gold; but then forgot to include that in my post.

Another difference with Gold is that it would only trigger on gain effects on the gained card, rather than on buy (though, interestingly, it would trigger the on buy of the cheaper card).

3381
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards: Mystical Chest
« on: June 12, 2019, 12:06:06 am »
While we wait for the next contest, let's revisit last week's ("Feeling Vulnerable") entry:

You find a mysterious chest. What luck! After carefully opening it, you'll get some Gold, but you may have also triggered a trap!:





Notes / Questions:

Having you set aside hexes makes sure you're not super hexed in multi player games (or even by a single opponent who gets multiple boons). An alternative way of providing this protection is: "While this is in play, when another player receives a Boon, if you haven’t already, receive a Hex."

Which is better?

The original way adds a neat dynamic that you may get to pick the weaker of multiple Hexes (and may have the effect of forcing your opponent into a tough decision - if you've set aside Misery, for example, do they play a card that gives them a 2nd boon and may reveal as strong a Hex?).

The second way simplifies the card text considerably (since the "while this is in play" is when you receive the Hex, that whole clause can be removed from the "on play").

3382
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards
« on: June 11, 2019, 11:55:32 pm »
I got a chance to play test a little last night - in 3 games, Chapel beat Apse Chapel 2-1. That said, I'm still pleased with those results because:
• the Chapel player was Player 1 all three games.
• the two games Chapel won were close, while the game Apse Chapel won was not.
• in one of Chapel's win, Chapel got a 5-2 split.

(that and Apse Chapel got Runner up in the contest - woohoo!)

For the other cards, I updated the initial post with Graveyard replacing Parish, and a simpler Cloister. I still need to work on Archbishop as I mocked up a version with "while this is in play" and it was too busy.




Looking forward to seeing other's ideas for these tokens!

3383
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 11, 2019, 08:31:16 pm »
scolapasta   Apse Chapel   http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg802942#msg802942

The Worshipper tokens are clever. I don't think gaining a $4 is usually worth the opportunity cost of trashing an extra 2 cards. The benefit of Apse Chapel, of course, is that you can guarantee you hit the exact card you want (You don't need to lament about not trashing estates because you drew your Chapel with 4 coppers). Definitely an

Definitely an??

Yay for Runner-up - and congratulations to the winner, King Leon! This week felt like an especially tough one to me.

3384
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 10, 2019, 04:05:55 pm »
Should I remove the other cards from the post or leave them in their current support / demonstration role?

Answering my own question, but I went ahead and removed them from the initial post, so that only Worshipper tokens, as the new mechanic, and Apse Chapel are there.

(the other cards were moved to: scolapasta's cards. Feel free to join us there for discussion on them and other cards and/or if you have any ideas for new cards that use Worshippers)

3385
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards
« on: June 10, 2019, 03:34:17 pm »
Thanks for the well thought out feedback!



I really like Apse Chapel, I played a few quick solo games just see how it generally plays out in the early turns and I really liked it. Regarding the cost, I think it basically comes down to how you want people to be able to open. I think $2, $3 and $4 are all defensible prices for it. Personally I think a card that trashes 2 cards at such a low cost to tempo as this is a bit much for $2 so I'd go with $3 or $4 depending on whether I wanted double Apse Chapel opening to be a thing. I know this was designed with the chapel contest in mind, but I'm ignoring that because I don't think designing cards around Chapel is a good way to go about it.

I'm glad you got some play testing in! I plan on trying some, hopefully this week, with both Chapel and Apse Chapel on the board, and have Player 1 buy one and a Player 2 the other.

While I overall agree with not designing around Chapel, in this case since it's specifically meant to be a Chapel variant (not just for the challenge, but more generally), I'm ok with it.



I don't like the new version of Parish, I'm not convinced that kind of token counting Victory card can really work. I also think that Worshippers are a particularly bad token for this because they naturally become useless after you run out of bad cards to trash, unlike Coffers or Villagers. The problem is that it plays dramatically differently when there are other Worshipper cards out. With no other Worshipper cards it's a version of the classic Victory card that counts itself, which no one has been able to make work aside from Castles sort of. Donald X touches upon his attempt at the idea in the Duke section of Intrigue's secret history here.  With a card like Apse Chapel in the kingdom it probably just becomes broken as you can stockpile worshippers for massive amounts of VP. You can try to reduce this by making the rate worse, but then you'll just be making it useless when there's no other Worshippers around so I'm not really sure what the fix is.

I preferred the original as a twist on Cemetery, although I think it could have given 2 Worshippers. So it'd be like Cemetery but can only trash 2 cards, but with the benefits of the trashing being in the form of Worshippers.

Agreed - the more I thought about it, the more I felt it didn't work. You went beyond that and provided concrete reasons why, so thanks! I think the closest thing to a fix (mentioned previously) would be to make the concept a Landmark:

Quote
Mausoleum - Landmark
When scoring 1VP per 2 Worshippers you have (round down).

You'd, of course, only use this in games with a card that gave Worshippers, so is it even worth creating this card? (if I were officially publishing, I would not; but as a fan card to try out when I play these cards with friends - why not?)

Cemetery is an apt comparison. I can see bringing it back in that form, but with a more appropriate name:

Quote
Graveyard - Victory - $4
Worth 2VP. When you gain this, +2 Worshippers.

Graveyard is to Cemetery like Apse Chapel is to Chapel.

Now still just need an idea for Parish, which wants to be a Victory Card.



I don't find Cloister particularly compelling myself, rewarding you for trashing by giving you more trashing is weird to me. Sewers is a bit different as I see that as improving your trashing cards, rather than rewarding you for lining up your trashing card with another card.

Good point about Sewers and the difference between a Project and this card. Not sure yet if I'll keep this around or try to tweak some more. Maybe find a way to make the day part more compelling, and the Night directly just give you +1 Worshipper?



I'd be careful with Archbishop giving +2vp unconditionally, it has the danger of leading to never ending games. It might be expensive enough that this doesn't become much of a problem, but I'd keep an eye on it. I always enjoyed how expensive trashers like Forge made you play a bit differently than the cheaper trashers so I like that about Archbishop.

Over the weekend, I reread the Fan Card Creation Guide, and saw the flaws here when I got to Common Pitfall #19: Cards that allow unlimited accumulation of victory tokens.

So yes, this needs to be changed! In trying to make this analogous to Bishop, the issue was that Worshippers don't trash immediately. I might try something like "While this is in play, when you trash a card, you may discard this. If you do +1VP per $2 it costs (round down)."

(this creates a new problem, of two below the line clauses, which may not be worth the trouble - are there any other cards that have two below the line clauses?)



I have a few vague ideas of things I think would be cool to do with Worshippers, but I won't share them unless you want me to.

Please!

I think there's plenty of space for new cards that use Worshippers. I think the mechanic and my first card, Apse Chapel, are worthwhile, but as a new designer, I've struggled a little with finding the right concept and/or balance on these other cards.

So have at it! :)

3386
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards
« on: June 09, 2019, 03:05:41 pm »
What about the other cards?

Do Archbishop and Cloister seem balanced and interesting?

And Parish? I'm fairly unsure about this one. The concept would probably be better as a a Landmark*, though in a game without cards that give out Worshippers it would be useless. What's the general consensus on Landmarks, Event, Projects that involve mechanics that won't be in every game? The only official ones I can think of are Tomb, and Sewers, in games with no trashing.

* though would need a new name, as Parish is clearly a Victory card

Similarly, I had the idea of an Event that would only work in Worshipper games. A couple of possibilities:
Quote
Tithe - Event - $0
Once per turn: +1 Buy. Remove a Worshipper from your Worshipper Mat. If you do, +$1.

(depending on strength, possible alternatives are: 2 Worshippers per $1, or remove the "once per turn")

3387
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards
« on: June 09, 2019, 02:40:46 pm »
Of course talking about what Chapel-esque cards should cost is tricky as Chapel is artificially priced low.

Right. Trying to create a card that is better than an overpowered card, but doesn't itself break the game is quite the challenge!

I'm glad to see some consensus on +2 Worshippers being the right place to have Apse Chapel at (play testing may reveal if that's too weak / strong).

(I did also consider having a combination of trashing and Worshippers, but that seemed less "pure" for what I felt should be a "pure" card)

3388
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards: Worshippers
« on: June 08, 2019, 02:18:38 pm »
This week's challenge is "Make me skip chapel!" The idea I came up with involved a new mechanic, Worshipper tokens, so in addition to the contest entry, I came up with several cards to demonstrate how it could work:

First, we had Coffers, tokens that you "spend" in your Buy Phase; then Villagers introduced tokens "spent" during your Action phase. Now let's welcome: Worshippers, a new type of token that you can "spend" during your Clean up phase:



Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or one you have in play.

Benefits of Worshippers compared to just trashing a card:

• you can play a Copper (or other card) on the same turn that you trash it
• you can hold on to the trashing if you don't have anything current to trash
• the corollary to that is you can stock up on Worshippers as a defense to gaining Junk
• a trasher like Apse Chapel can effectively trash itself, when you're done with it

Cards that use Worshippers:

Apse Chapel, a Chapel variant
Parish, a Victory card that counts Worshippers
Cloister, an Action-Night that trashes in the day, and gathers Worshippers at night
Archbishop, a "Grand" Bishop



FAQ:

• At the start of your Clean-up phase means before you discard any cards.



Questions:

Generally, of course, are these cards balanced?

Apse Chapel: I keep going back and forth on whether this should be +2 or +3 Worshippers. While I think +3 has a better chance of locking in the "skip Chapel" vote, it feels too strong. In lieu of extensive play testing, please let me know: is +2 Worshippers enough for you to consider skipping Chapel? Or does it need +3? (and if so, at what cost?)

Parish: the original was just boring and really just a token Victory card (no pun intended). This new version is more interesting (and thematically better - the more Worshippers you have, the more valuable your Parishes), but it could also well be broken. If so, help me fix it! (higher cost? more worshippers per VP? or is the idea generally broken?)


3389
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: scolapasta's cards: Secret History
« on: June 08, 2019, 02:13:09 pm »
Here I'll post my "Secret History" for these cards and ideas, in case anyone is interested in the evolution and reasoning they each went through to get to their current state:



Worshippers / Cards that use Worshippers:

• I considered having Worshippers trash from just your hand or just in play. But I prefer trashing either, as long as the cards are balanced.
• Once I got the idea for the new token, my first idea was the Chapel variant. I then tried to think of names with religious connotations: Archbishop should obviously be a "Grand" Bishop, and Parish a Victory card (Parish has since been removed).
• I considered trying Apse chapel as +3 Worshippers (for $3?), but (with feedback help) decided that was too strong.
• Parish as a card that cared about Worshippers didn't scale well, so that is now a Landmark, Mausoleum (while its original concept became an earlier version of Graveyard).
• Cloister was originally just a Night card that rewarded other trashing. It then gained "daytime" trashing, but was still problematic. This version is simpler, and hopefully more useful.
• Archbishop originally just gave $, VPs, and Worshippers, but was worrisome due to the unconditional VPs. Now it takes the Chalice which has a Bishop-like effect to reward using those Worshippers to trash cards. Thematically, the Archbishops are vying for who gets to be the "Pope" and have more power.
• Blessing is an attempt at TfB for Worshippers, since standard TfB isn't possible with the deferred trashing. It began as a 1 shot pure Reaction, but was useless in non Worshipper games, so moved out of the supply and is now only in games with Congregation.
• Occult Dealer seemed like a no brainer - now that we have 3 types of spendable tokens, why not a simple card that gives one of each?
• Mausoleum is Parish as a Landmark, so it's no longer tied to a card that can be split unevenly; i.e. everyone gets the opportunity for the same benefit.
• Convent is the parallel to Academy and Guildhall.



Overpay for Tokens:
• The guiding principle was to continue the synergies between: Victory cards to Worshippers, Action cards to Villagers, Treasure card to Coffers.
• Graveyard had started as plain "on gain" but became the first of the "Overpay for Token" cards.
• Developing Village has some DNA from both Develop and Village.



Challenge cards:

Mystical Chest:
• v0.1 was never posted in the forum. It had +1 Action and you received a Boon instead of $3 at the start of your next turn (cost was only $2). But two things changed my mind quickly:
- This quote, from another thread: "The important thing is, most cards that do Boons either give you some other benefit you’re really playing it for..." http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18109.msg740687#msg740687
- By receiving the 2nd Boon, it guaranteed the other player would get a Hex if they played one, which didn't seem right; you shouldn't know at the time of playing, if you will be hurt by it or not.
• I considered a version where you immediately receive the Hex when the other player received their Boon; that version simplified the card text considerably, but I prefer how this version lets you choose the less harmful Hex and possibly forces your opponent into a tough decision - if you've set aside Misery, for example, do they play a card that gives them a 2nd boon but may not reveal as strong a Hex?

Cabal:
• Cabal started with the idea of a TR for Night cards. By itself, that was not compelling enough since you could usually just buy a 2nd copy of a good Night card (as they are not terminal). So it because Action-Night, and you can TR either an Action or Night card, or save it for next turn (and it can't be drawn dead).

Stockpile:
• I went through several iterations to get to the initial posyed version. First it was just a one treasure card, earning tokens via overpay - it started weak and tokens made it stronger; or you could remove tokens to make it weak again, but with a strong one time bonus. But the text got very tiny, so I tried a split pile. It was not clear to me, however, if it was ever worth buying the 2nd card to trigger the bonus. So it came back to one card again, until I realized I could reverse the token effect - start strong and get weaker. I first tried that with a dependent card to restock it, until I realized how silly that was, and it could just have the option to restock itself.

Collector:
• Inspired by Magic Lamp, I started with setting aside cards for which you already had a copy in play.  It was too weak that way, and also simpler to just let you set aside any card. Trashing first happened when you play, then moved to start of clean up (to allow for treasures and night cards), and then moved again to end of turn (in order to have a minor penalty/bonus for setting aside, that set aside cards may miss a shuffle).

Coven:
• This started out as a "cursed" token that hurt everyone equally; but to be more in line with the other Adventurers tokens (putting them on a card makes that card better for you than for other players), it is now a "cursing token" that changes your cards from that pile into cursers.



3390
Variants and Fan Cards / scolapasta's cards
« on: June 08, 2019, 01:52:53 pm »
Hi all,

I recently discovered the Weekly Design contest and I love it! As I posted there, I've always wanted to come up with custom cards, but have struggled on where to start. Having the weekly design content to focus my ideas on a specific concept is fantastic! And to get feedback on top of that?? Wonderful!

Being new to this, I don't expect to win very often, but I would love to continue getting feedback and tweaking the cards until they work well. So this thread is for that. I'll post both cards from the contests and others I come up with and anyone interested in helping improve my ideas is welcome to comment.

This top post will contain the current version of all the cards.



Worshippers, a new type of token that you can "spend" during your Clean up phase:



Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, you may remove tokens from this to trash a card from your hand or one you have in play for each token removed.

Benefits of Worshippers (compared to just trashing a card):

• you can play a Copper (or other card) on the same turn that you trash it
• you can hold on to the trashing if you don't have anything current to trash
• the corollary to that is you can stock up on Worshippers as a defense to gaining Junk
• a trasher like Apse Chapel can effectively trash itself, when you're done with it

Cards that give Worshippers:

Apse Chapel, a Chapel variant
Cloister, an Action-Night that trashes in the day, and gathers Worshippers at night
Archbishop, a "Grand" Bishop
Congregation / Blessing, TfB for Worshippers
Occult Dealer, a card gives out one of type of each "spendable" token



Card-shaped things that care about Worshippers:

Tithe, an Event that trades a Worshipper for a $1
Mausoleum, a landmark that gives VPs for Worshippers
Convent, a Project that gives out a Worshipper when you gain or trash a Victory card
Chalice, an Artifact with a Bishop-like effect

]

FAQ:

• At the start of your Clean-up phase means before you discard any cards.
• Only use Title and Mausoleum in Kingdoms that games that give Worshippers.



Overpay for Tokens

Developing Village, overpay for Villagers
Endowment, overpay for Coffers
Graveyard, overpay for Worshippers





Challenge Cards:

Mystical Chest:, an Fate-Doom card
Cabal:, an TR variant that also works on Night cards
Stockpile:, a cheap "reloadable" Gold
Collector:, an Improve variant, with Magic Lamp as an Heirloom
Coven:, an event that allows you to turn Action into a Curser





Changelog:
v0.1 Worshippers, Apse Chapel, Archbishop, Parish - initial*
v0.1 Undercroft - initial*
v0.2 Worshippers - changed wording to "At the start of your Clean-up phase" to be more clear
v0.2 Archbishop - added additional Worshipper
v0.2 Parish - made more interesting by counting Worshippers
v0.2 Cloister (formerly Undercroft) - made into Action-Night, so it trashes cards now
v0.3 Graveyard (formerly Parish) - back to the initial version (with an additional Worshipper), but with new name
v0.3 Cloister - Night now always gets exactly +1 Worshipper
v0.2 Mystical Chest - initial (**)
v0.1 Blessing - initial
v0.3 Archbishop - 1 less VP, 1 less Worshipper, but now takes the Chalice
v0.1 Congregation - initial
v0.2 Blessing - now a reserve card that's not in the supply
v0.1 Title - initial
v0.1 Mausoleum - initial
v0.1 Convent - initial
v0.1 Chalice - initial
v0.3 Mystical Chest - fixed background color
v0.1 Occult Dealer - initial
v0.2 Congregation - loses +1 Card; gains blessing to hand
v0.3 Blessing - now an action - reserve card
v0.2 Occult Dealer - changed cost to $5
v0.2 Convent - changed cost to $3 and also gains Worshipper when trashing Victory cards
v0.1 Developing Village - initial
v0.1 Endowment - initial
v0.4 Graveyard - now overpay for Worshippers
v0.2 Developing Village - added +1 Action if you trade, +1 Card if you don't and the trade has to be differently named
v0.3 Worshippers - wording change; now, if you spend a Worshipper, you must trash a card
v0.3 Convent - dropped cost to $2
v0.4 Archbishop - changed Chalice taking to be conditional; removed no Coppers clause
v0.2 Chalice - now once per turn
v0.2 Cabal - initial (***)
v0.2b Stockpile - initial (***)
v0.3 Collector - initial (***)
v0.2d Coven - initial (***)
v0.4 Collector - added + 1 card
v0.3 Coven - lowered cost to $5 and removed non-Attack

(*) v0.1 of Worshippers, Archbishop, Parish, and Undercroft were only posted in the Weekly Design Contest thread
(**) v0.1 of Mystical Chest was never posted - see secret history for reasons why
(***) previous versions of these cards posted in Weekly Challenge thread

3391
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 08, 2019, 01:47:48 pm »
Because of tracking issues, Worshippers should specifically disallow in-play Duration cards. "...for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or a non-Duration card you have in play."

I modeled after Bonfire, which does not include the non-Duration cards. In a bgg thread, Donald wrote:

Quote
I didn't think of using Bonfire to cause tracking issues. It wasn't anything anyone ever did. I probably still wouldn't say "non-Duration" or something on Bonfire; again, making a card more complex for an exotic situation.

So for now, I'm happy leaving it in this simpler (and also more flexible) way. (From that thread, Procession, for example, leads to similar tracking issues)



I think it'd be a good idea to start a separate thread for these cards and then maybe choose one to submit for this contest? I think we should stick to one card per person unless the specific challenge allows more so that the number of cards doesn't become too overwhelming for the judge. Plus this way people could continue to discuss these after this challenge is over.

Starting a separate thread sounds like a good idea - I can do that [UPDATE: thread added]. Note that in my previous edit to the initial post, I had added this blurb:

Quote
My official entry for the contest is Apse Chapel, while the other cards can provide support for some strategies (e.g. Parish prefers Apse Chapel to Chapel for end game VPs) and are here to help demonstrate the mechanic.

So that's the card I expect to be judged for the challenge. Should I remove the other cards from the post or leave them in their current support / demonstration role?

3392
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 07, 2019, 03:09:47 pm »
OK, based on feedback and some of my own deliberations, I've updated my initial post. Here are the changes, so you don't have to go find it, plus some background reasoning:





Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or one you have in play.

Worshippers: changed the rule (and the mat) to "At the start of your Clean-up phase" because that seemed more clear to everyone. It felt important to keep it after the Night phase for Undercroft (which got rebranded as Cloister).



Before I show the updated cards, I will say, I am very happy with the mechanic and the general idea behind each of the cards. That said, it's hard for me to really know how valuable the difference between a Worshipper and just trashing a card is.

The benefits are:
• you can play a Copper (or other card) on the same turn that you trash it
• you can hold on to the trashing if you don't have anything current to trash
• the corollary to that is you can stock up on Worshippers as a defense to gaining Junk
• a trasher like Apse Chapel can effectively trash itself, when you're done with it

So while I can tweak things here and there, to get a real understanding requires some extensive play testing. Here's hoping my guesses are reasonable.



The updated cards:



Apse Chapel: No change. I keep going back and forth on whether this should be +2 or +3 Worshippers. While I think +3 has a better chance of locking in the "skip Chapel" vote, it feels too strong. But as I said above, this can only really be figured out with some real play testing. In lieu of that, please let me know: is +2 Worshippers enough for you to consider skipping Chapel? Or does it need +3? (and if so, what should I price it at?)

Parish: the original was just boring and really just a token Victory card (no pun intended). This new version is more interesting (and thematically better - the more Worshippers you have, the more valuable your Parishes), but it could also well be broken. If so, help me fix it! (higher cost? more worshippers per VP? or is the idea generally broken?)

Cloister (formerly Undercroft): a good point was made that it requires another trasher, so I solved it by having it trash as an Action. Thematically, Undercroft didn't seem to work anymore but I had been working separately on a Cloister, and this seemed to fit - you go to the Cloister during the day to meditate (i.e. trash cards), or clandestinely meet at night to gather future Worshippers. I considering pricing this at $3, enabling a double Cloister open, but $4 seemed more balanced.

Archbishop: Small change. I was incorrectly comparing to Bishop at $5. When I realized it was only $4, this needed to be a little stronger, in order to qualify as "Grand".



As always, feedback is very welcome. Coming up with a new mechanic and several representative cards was a big swing for me, so I hope it's OK that I'm asking / discussing a lot. :)

3393
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 07, 2019, 12:34:19 pm »
I think "at the start of cleanup" is probably the best way to go with this one. It doesn't seem ambiguous at all to me, any more than "at the start of your turn".

Agreed. Am updating it shortly, plus making changes (some small, some big) to the other cards.

3394
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 06, 2019, 10:37:19 pm »
(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?

3395
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 06, 2019, 07:43:57 pm »
This card is pretty useless, because it requires you to already have a trasher. Why would you want to have two different trashers in your deck?

Yes, it requires another trasher, but so does the card it was modeled after: Sewers (hence Undercroft, being underneath a church).

Sewers, being a Project, is better in that it plays every turn and is not part of your deck; this, on the other hand, allows you first to play the card (so get + before you trash that copper), and can be saved for another turn instead.

Those differences are why I was wondering if it is fine at or better at .

I could also have it trash a card first and raise the price.

3396
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 06, 2019, 07:24:23 pm »
And I think it would break one of the other cards I'll be adding shortly.

Here's the first version of that card:



(if you could play Worshippers whenever you discarded, then you would be able to play Worshippers in your Action phase, trash cards, and get back that Worshippers with this)

Is balanced for this? or would be better?

3397
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 06, 2019, 07:04:07 pm »
Really cool concept. I was tinkering with something similar, but I was going more for general discarding (during and not during the Clean-up phase). It never  felt balanced though. Tokens seem like a great solution! Do you think having these work with discarding during any phase would work? Make those meh Oasis' into super-charged Junk Dealers!

Thanks.
It could possibly work during other phases, but I liked the idea of one token for phase (at least until I introduce "Shoppers" :).

And I think it would break one of the other cards I'll be adding shortly.

3398
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 06, 2019, 05:58:37 pm »
*Phase, not phrase.
Thanks, fixed.

3399
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 06, 2019, 05:04:24 pm »
First, we had Coffers, tokens that you "spend" in your Buy Phase; then Villagers introduced tokens "spent" during your Action phase. Now let's welcome: Worshippers, a new type of token that you can "spend" during your Clean up phase:



Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or one you have in play.

Benefits of Worshippers compared to just trashing a card:

• you can play a Copper (or other card) on the same turn that you trash it
• you can hold on to the trashing if you don't have anything current to trash
• the corollary to that is you can stock up on Worshippers as a defense to gaining Junk
• a trasher like Apse Chapel can effectively trash itself, when you're done with it



Entry for the challenge:

Apse Chapel, a Chapel variant



[NOTE: I've moved the other cards that demonstrated the mechanic to a different thread: scolapasta's cards. Feel free to join us there for discussion on these and other cards and/or if you have any ideas for new cards that use Worshippers.]


Changelog:
v0.1 Worshippers, Apse Chapel - initial
v0.2 Worshippers - changed wording to "At the start of your Clean-up phase" to be more clear

FAQ:
At the start of your Clean-up phase means before you discard any cards.

Secret History:
• I considered having Worshippers trash from just your hand or just in play. But I think I prefer trashing either, as long as I balance out the cost on cards that give you Worshippers.
• I keep trying Apse chapel as +3 Worshippers (for $3?), then decide that's too good, and then revert back to +2 Worshippers (for $2).



I hope this mechanic is interesting, feedback is very welcome. Thanks!

3400
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 05, 2019, 02:00:13 pm »
Just some minor feedback for future judges -- please include links to the entries when judging comes around. It's a pain in the @ss to look back and find every entry to know what you're talking about, especially when some people don't have easy-to-spot, fancy mockups for their cards.

I'm guessing I'm not the only one, but I don't know how to link to the entries.  I don't speak computer. I haz the dumb when it comes to tech

Just right click the title of an individual post and "Copy Link Address".
Then add:
Code: [Select]
[url=http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.msg802863#msg802863]This is a link to your post[/url]
That will look like this:
This is a link to your post


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