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126

2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Rules

« on: November 28, 2011, 02:34:12 pm »

Well, first of all the combinatorics are a bit off.  The probability of a 5/2 split is 1/6 ((5 choose 2) * 2)/(10 choose 3).  Thus, the probabilities of opening hands are:

double 4/3: 25/36
4/3 and 5/2: 10/36
double 5/2: 1/36

When push comes to shove though, I prefer to let the luck of the draw take its course.  It's a part of the game, and especially in a best of 7 series, it shouldn't affect the outcome of the match unless the players were closely matched in skill to begin with.

127

2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Rules

« on: November 28, 2011, 02:25:02 pm »

My ultimate reasoning was grounded in the fact that this default rule comes into play only when one side insists on it and the other insists on the other.  These situations seem likely only to occur when one side stands to gain some sort of advantage from the variance (e.g., a player is significantly worse), and in such situations I'd hate to be siding with the player seeking an advantage through random luck.  I have no problem with -- and indeed, encourage -- players to decide on their own to abandon identical starts.

I think the flaw in our argument is your perception of the reasoning for wanting random hand splits.  I'd prefer and wish to insist on them regardless of my seed in relation to that of my opponent, simply because that's Dominion as written and because I value the extra interest created by the potential for asymmetrical starts.  I also think that when a certain setting is added to the default rules, it adds an endorsement behind that options as the preferred approach.  It seems to me that the default rules should be those of the game as written unless there's a reason that that wouldn't work (as in the case of point counters).

128

2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Rules

« on: November 28, 2011, 01:47:45 pm »

moving away from the rules of dominion?  that is a bit extreme.  this change only will only affect half of the games played (arguably 3/4) and is only a small deviation from the original rules. not only that, the rule is explicitly for the purpose of ensuring a more balanced tournament. it is not a matter of personal preference, and the ones making the rules have no vested interests that they are catering to here.

Well, based on theory's posts, I know that he has a dislike of the more random elements in Dominion: he favors layouts, cards, and rule sets which minimize the influence of luck.  I don't think his decision is coming from maliciousness or a desire for personal gain, of course not.  I do, however, think the ruling is colored by his own personal preferences for minimizing luck in Dominion.  Also, fwiw this change will affect about a third of games (the probably of one 5/2 split and one 4/3 split in a game is 10/36).

and fwiw (allowing for random openings) probability would indicate that 1 person in the tournaments first round will get four straight games of a 5/2 open to an opponents 4/3. im going to go out on a limb and bet the people on the receiving end of that kind of luck would favor the identicial opening hands. as it is, there is sure to plenty of lamenting over luck in the match reports.

Yep, that's bound to happen, although I'd also point out that there's a 50% chance that person you gets the 4/3 splits is the lower ranked player, plus 5/2 isn't always the better split.  Dominion, however, is not chess.  The presence of luck does not make skill-based tournaments unworkable, just look at poker.  I know there are many people who wish Dominion had less luck than it does, but there are also those who would probably want more.  I just think the tournament should be done with the rules as written, not modified by personal taste.

129

2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Rules

« on: November 28, 2011, 12:52:57 pm »

I can understand the point counter rule because there's no way to enforce otherwise, but this start split rule is just moving away from the rules of Dominion out of personal preference.  I think the variation adds a lot to the game, it's part of the rules, and with 4 wins needed to win a match, it's very unlikely to "knock a top seed out early".  Luck is a part of the game, and a 7 game series should be plenty to deal with the few cases where different starting hands is a strongly determining factor in a game.

130

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Leaderboard change

« on: November 25, 2011, 03:34:32 am »

I don't have much to add, except to agree that this change makes the rankings much less enjoyable and useful.  Here's hoping the change will be reconsidered.

131

2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Registration

« on: November 21, 2011, 12:28:36 pm »

toaster

PST

132

Dominion General Discussion / Re: A Dominion statemate?

« on: November 15, 2011, 05:18:34 pm »

You may be right about the overall strategy, but I don't think the stalemate break actually works.  The problem is that if your opponent waits you out,  they will get to use a Pirate Ship on you every turn, increasing the effectiveness of it while yours remains stuck at 2.  Without the ability to consistently get to 5, I don't see how you win.

As for the overall strategy....I'd have to play it out.  While Pirate Ship alone is usually weak, the ample trashing options in this set make it pretty easy to get a PS every turn, and there aren't great engine opportunities to outrun it as one usually would.

133

Dominion General Discussion / A Dominion stalemate?

« on: November 15, 2011, 04:52:36 pm »

I played an interesting game recently and thought it would make good fodder for discussion.  The board was:

Bureaucrat
Coppersmith
Explorer
Loan
Mint
Noble Brigand
Pirate Ship
Rabble
Steward
Talisman

As you can see, this set featured no non-terminal actions, Pirate Ship, and readily available trashing.  This was the resulting game:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/07/game-20111107-223153-78522d04.html

We both bought Pirate Ships and a Loan/Steward...trying to hit our opponent's treasure while trashing our own.  By about turn 14, we'd reached a point where both of us had 5 or fewer cards in deck, no treasure, and Pirate Ships with only 2 tokens on them.  Once we hit this state, we both fumbled around for a bit, but eventually my opponent tried to grab some treasure and build up his deck from there.  I used his move to beef up my Pirate Ship a bit, which then allowed me to purchase enough Duchies to barely escape with the win.

I don't think I played this game particularly well, but the question that the game raised for me was: were we in a stalemate around turn 14 or so?  That is, had we reached a point where the first player to try to extend their deck beyond 5 cards would most likely lose, and thus the best move was for both player to do nothing?

It seems possible that we had reached that state in this game, but I'd love to hear from others:

1.  Can you find a winning strategy that breaks the stalemate?
2.  Was there an alternate strategy on the board that you think would've avoided the stalemate scenario in the first place?