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51
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Addressing the first player advantage
« on: March 14, 2018, 04:28:46 pm »
Here's some other threads where handicapping has been discussed:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=95.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=950
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1288
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=335

Can we maybe discuss it here anyways, since those are all 6+ years old, and several of them are more about handicapping yourself against a weak player, rather than competitive play compensation?  Also one of them doesn't have any discussion at all.

Breezing through those 1 page threads, I didn't see anyone talking about non-coin tokens.

For instance, if the second player was given a +action token, or +buy token, to spend once per game.
Or maybe a token that can be used once, as a +buy OR a +action
If those are too much, perhaps require the user to spend some resource to activate it.
For instance, the token could require spending a buy, action, or $1.

those seem less useful in the early game, where you really don't want one player leaping ahead of the other, and there shouldn't be a time when they are backbreaking.

Alternatively, there could be an event that has some small bonus, but it is reserved for only the second player...but as soon as the second player uses it, then it's reserved for only the first player, and control continues to swap with use.

Given that dominion is a game of changing kingdoms, it could be interesting if there were MANY tiny boons to the first player, and one got randomly selected as the 2nd player boon.

I feel like missing an opening turn is too big...

Well, instead of a nerf for the first player, how about a buff for the second player? The second player gets to start the game with the worse half of their deck in the discard pile so that they never have to draw it until they reshuffle it in.

Is that definitively a buff?  It sounds interesting, but their first reshuffle only has 1 card better than copper.

52
Dominion Videos and Streams / Re: How to Base Dominion
« on: March 14, 2018, 03:20:47 pm »
Can more people make videos for beginners like this?  Or is anyone else making such videos like this that I haven't found?

By which I mean:
* videos of a single game (less than 30 minutes long)
* meticulous analysis of the kingdom, strategy, and decisions
* jargon mostly stripped out of the talk (or explained)

Other people are making 1-2 hours videos with 4+ matches, conversation rather than explanation, and decision points glossed over with "______ looks good here"...that are clearly made for the enfranchised audience.

The relatively simple kingdoms were nice, but not required, so long as the time is taken to analyze it out loud.   

53
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: March 14, 2018, 02:45:57 pm »
Dangerous Experiment
Event
$7

Place your Radioactivity token on the Rats pile. For the rest of the game, when your Rats trash a card costing $2 or more, gain a Ratman from the Ratman pile.

Setup: Add Rats as an additional kingdom pile.

What is a Ratman???

I think in the chapel meme thread, it was something that trashed a rat, gained a rat to the top of your deck, and made your opponents discard a rat.

54
Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Cobbler
« on: March 14, 2018, 02:37:15 pm »
i keep not buying it, so i'm struggling to evaluate it.

it seems you want a kingdom with a variety of good engine components that cost 4$ or less, so you can grab what you NEED for a turn to work...
But if there are a variety of good engine components that cost 4$ or less, putting together a consistent engine is too easy without it.

It seems like one of those cards, like sacred grove, and skulk, that you buy if they are the only way to gain a second card in a turn.

Quote
It's kinda sad that it doesn't work with cost reduction (other that Bridge Troll and Ferry)
Unfortunately, if bridge troll is in the kingdom, you have strong incentive to not get the cobbler since the bridge troll already gives you two more discounted buys.

Quote
I'm not going to pretend I had high confidence with my Cobbler buys (or non-buys), but Cobbler seemed pretty good in some of the games.  Game 5 was my favorite board of the bunch, and Mic's two Cobblers were far superior to my one.
Could you give me a timecode? Are you talking about the aqueduct/bandit fort game?
I only see four games in that file.

55
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Number of curses in 3-4 player games
« on: March 14, 2018, 01:34:31 pm »
My play group is thinking about experimenting with a setup of "6 curses per player", rather than the current 10-20-30 model for 3 (6.67 each) and 4 (7.5 each) player games.

This would slightly tone down the junking that can happen, but still allow for each cursing attack to generally hand out a curse to everyone, or no one.  expectancy of 6 per player is still higher than what happens in 2 player games, so it doesn't seem to be crazy to reduce it to that level.

Is there a specific reason that 20-30 plays better than 18-24, that we are just not seeing?

While I don't know about "10" specifically; the big difference here is that you are looking at curses per player; while the real game looks at curses per opponent. The official rules make more sense if you consider the situation where only 1 player gets a curser... no matter what player count (discounting attack protection), each opponent will get 10 curses. In your system a 2 player game will give your opponent 12 curses, a 3 player game will give each opponent 9 curses, while a 4 player game will give each opponent 8 curses.

yeah, the official rules keep the number of times a curser is played to full effect consistent at 10, and that goes down if you measure curses by players, rather than opponents.  But there is rarely a situation where only one player is cursing.  the more common scenario is that most people are cursing, and measuring per player can mitigate the damage that can be done to a single deck. 

Quote
I believe Donald has said somewhere that he would consider reducing the number of Curses for different player counts if he were making the game from scratch. I think it sounds like a fine thing to experiment with. I'd probably just bring it down to 8 Curses per opponent. So, 16 Curses for a 3-player game and 24 Curses for a 4-player game.

That seems pretty reasonable.

56
It never occurred to me that the deck composition would need tweaking.

Since it never crossed my mind, I guess I'm okay with it. It never bothered me that there are two repeats. I feel like they add some versatility in case you need it. Say you want to 180 and move 2 but got neither of those cards. If you had both repeats, then you could move 1 twice and turn left twice.

And it is satisfying to see repeat paired up with a useful card. Repeating a move 3 on a straightaway is great. Repeating the power up a couple of times while you hitch a ride on the conveyor is also really handy. You could even back up 3 times conceivably. And I do like how you're probably going to get on average 1 repeat every other hand or so.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with two repeats.  But only one reverse does kill some functionality.  And if you are going to make another reverse, you need to change something, and there isn't a better candidate than the second repeat.

It's impossible to reverse - turn - reverse, for example.
That was an extremely frequent maneuver in the old game that I miss in almost every game.
and reverse is the best way to handle poor shuffle luck when you get the wrong turns.
It was a very defensive and fun way to get around, and not at all replicated by reverse-repeat-repeat.

And why you would want to add a THIRD repeat to your deck with an option is beyond me. I've never seen it purchased. It just sits there until the option board is clogged with undesirable cards and gets wiped away, every time.

The game is so cheap though.
Maybe I'll buy another set so that i can modify it without taking out the repeat. would give me boards and options to modify as well.

57
Variants and Fan Cards / Number of curses in 3-4 player games
« on: March 14, 2018, 12:38:58 pm »
My play group is thinking about experimenting with a setup of "6 curses per player", rather than the current 10-20-30 model for 3 (6.67 each) and 4 (7.5 each) player games.

This would slightly tone down the junking that can happen, but still allow for each cursing attack to generally hand out a curse to everyone, or no one.  expectancy of 6 per player is still higher than what happens in 2 player games, so it doesn't seem to be crazy to reduce it to that level.

Is there a specific reason that 20-30 plays better than 18-24, that we are just not seeing?

58
Let's Discuss ... / Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« on: March 14, 2018, 12:23:55 pm »
A better metric is:
at what price does the card get used, but not overused?

tunnel, at least in my games, doesn't get heavy use at 3$.  and no one is trying to win the split.
3$ seems fine.

59
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Extending the game
« on: March 14, 2018, 12:08:15 pm »
Unrelated: why does everyone like best-of-6 for matches? Sure you can tie games and end something like 3.5 to 2.5, but best-of-<odd number> seems more intuitive.

An even number allows you to give both players an equal number of starts.

Before there was "komi" (compensation of about 6.5 points to the player that plays second) in go, legendary player Honinbo Shusaku was asked if he won a match, and his response was "I was black", meaning "I went first, and I never lose if I go first". With komi, matches can now be an odd number, because there are no ties, and it isn't a disadvantage to go second more times than your opponent.

I wouldn't mind if there was a bit extra compensation for second players in dominion.

That said, if you are just trying to casually extend a non-competitive match between friends, playing an odd number of matches doesn't seem like a big deal, especially if you have more than 2 people playing.

60
I usually start the sweep wherever the antenna is facing.

Brilliant.  I'm gonna do that as a reminder from now on, even if it starts on the edge of the board.

The older boards line up nicely, which is a problem for the offset. It seems like the new boards are less reliant on conveyors on the edge like the old one. I prefer the older boards anyway. If I felt spunky, I could use the boards with teleporters and portals and oil slicks. Definitely something to bring up with veterans though.

The new boards are definitely simpler, and look less sexy...but when I was experimenting with offsets a few months ago, it seemed to be almost a similar level of challenge to create a navigable situation that had more than 1 logical option to cross boards.

Having played extensively with both sets, my conclusion is that the new boards are more accessible to new players, and still challenging and fun to veterans.  I thought that I was going to miss crushers and trap doors and flame blasts and slicks and jump pads and teleporters...

But actually, I don't.  In fact, the game is STILL delightfully complex.
The board itself is simpler, but there is increased robot interaction due to the catch-up mechanic, and increased option complexity due to there just being more of them since they are so much easier to get.
And navigating cannery row alone is neither as interesting or as challenging as navigating conveyors and lasers in close proximity to other robots.

And more importantly, the game has exchanged bad complexity for good complexity.

Situational complexity: "can you understand how the things work"
Strategic complexity: "given your understanding of the situation, what is the best plan of attack"

messing up situational complexity makes people feel stupid.
having your plans messed up by the clever moves of an opponent is exciting, and predicting and countering an opponent is more satisfying than safely navigating crushers.

That said, I do miss the pushers.  They were pretty easy to understand, and often had interesting implications. 

Do you know if anyone is making new boards?  one interesting effect of making all the boards smaller is that they now fit on an 11x17 piece of paper, and are thus easier to reproduce in a simple printer.

---

Somewhat on topic:
have you considered any changes to the decks?
I don't like having two repeats, and I don't like having only 1 reverse.  Thinking about taking a sharpie to my cards.
I'm also thinking about trying to create better movement options.  an additional repeat seems like a waste of a card, and is thus prime for rewrite.

61
Chariot Race + Counsel Room
counsel room to get the expensive card off of an opponent's deck (province, in this case), so you can (hopefully) win the rest of the chariot races.

But it could also get their cheap card off the top of their deck.

The first chariot race tells you whats on top, then you can clear it with counsel room if it is expensive for additional chariot races.

62
Hireling would be one of the strongest cursed gold openings.
Probably not that strong, especially in the absence of trashing. Assuming that you haven't got an engine going, then once per shuffle the Hireling's extra card draw is exactly cancelled out by the junk card in your deck (and if you never play the Cursed Gold again, you technically have two junk cards in your deck, so you can raise that to twice per shuffle).

Let's assume there is trashing. 
Is the hireling still weak?  In the early phases of the game, the hireling will draw you ~2 cards per shuffle, and there is still only 1 curse per shuffle.  and hireling will increase the odds of a quick collision of your trasher with the junk cards, and not require an action to do so like terminal draw would.  Depending on the kingdom, seems like that could be a strong option.  What am I missing?


63
Chariot Race + Counsel Room
counsel room to get the expensive card off of an opponent's deck (province, in this case), so you can (hopefully) win the rest of the chariot races.


64
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What should Dominion do next?
« on: March 13, 2018, 04:38:08 pm »
As a random example intended more to show what I mean than to actually play well: have a pile which, when selected, has you pick an extra pile that you stack underneath it like an Empires split pile. When, after someone's turn, the top half the pile is gone, immediately everyone may set aside as much of their deck as they like until game-end scoring, gains 7 more Coppers, shuffles, draws 5.

I hate that example. But I like how you think.

The players should have some level of control, so that one person doesn't suddenly get first dibs at a premo pile.
I dunno, some trigger that you can work towards, like first person to play 7 actions in a turn.

But honestly, just more split piles would be nice.  It's a very simple execution and still adds an interesting pile management element to the game.

---

More mini-quests, like leprechaun and magic lamp, would be nice too.
More travelers would be great, especially if they have fewer steps, because then they could be more modestly powerful, and not so game warping.

65
but it's usually to your advantage to have priority.
You get first pick of the options, and sometimes there is only one new one, or there is only one great one in a new set.
 

That's true. Priority is important here.

But at least in my games, the priority antenna doesn't necessarily punish the leader. I often encourage interaction by having the robots fight on one or two squares. I may have four flags on the board forcing robots to cross paths over and over again because I also think that clusterfucks are more amusing than runaway leaders. That's not to say I won't make a linear path, but I like doublebacks and crossovers in my maps. In these cases, the person in last place may get first pick of the options, or the leader might, depending on where they are in their flag-capturing.

This prompts another possible house rule. Option priority is first given to the robots with the fewest touched flags. Ties are broken as normal. This way, the leader likely always picks last. Damn house rules.

I've contemplated another map where I place 4 boards in a grid, but I shift them so that there is a single empty space in the middle. That space has the priority antenna. That also wouldn't benefit last place without that house rule in effect.

funny how roborally fan minds think alike...

when we were trying to fix the runaway leader problem in the old game, we tried causing players to take a permanent point of damage each time they hit a flag, which works on the same cause and effect of your priority model.  the other thing we did was erase taking damage for death, since that tended to take a player out of the game coupled with loss of options and going back to the last point.

also, we have done offset boards...it seems a better idea in theory than in practice.  when you offset boards, a lot of them have conveyor belts facing each other in a way that would never happen with perfectly lined up boards.  it's not clear what to do in that situation, and it's hard to navigate.
IIRC, we had to offset 4 spaces and pick boards judiciously to get an offset that wasn't broken.  the new boards are simpler than the old boards, so perhaps it's easier to do a 1 space offset?
if you put the antenna in the middle, where would you start the circle?  just pick a point to start i guess. less elegant than it starting at one edge of the board though.

66
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Extending the game
« on: March 13, 2018, 03:22:54 pm »
We actually tried an Heirloom thing that added five extra Coppers to your starting deck, during Nocturne testing. It sucked!

It doesn't sound that terrible, since the average treasure per hand goes up to 4$, and has very high odds of a 5$ in the first three turns...
But I certainly trust your playtest over my intuition. 

I might suggest it to one of my friends that has a bit of a designer's eye, and see if he would enjoy playtesting that.  Morbid curiosity and all that...

Speaking of morbid curiosity, I was playing World of Tanks a number of years ago, and was messing with vision mods.  One of the neat things I found was that i could change the minimum sniper zoom to 1x, which allowed you to see if you had line of sight, but gave you a better view of the battlefield than 2x.  But what about 0.5x? Would that give me an even better view of the world in sniper mode?  Nope, crashed the game. 

So of course I also tried -1x.  Ended up uninstalling the game and deleting all the game files to try to fix that one.  Didn't work.  Needed to hunt down additional files that weren't even in the WOT folder that had been corrupted so i could play again.

Worst thing that can happen on a dominion playtest is "that was a waste of time".

67
also, giving priority to the robots furthest behind is a nice touch that maybe we want to keep, since it prevents the leader from sprinting out of trouble.
 
I don't think the priority antenna gives any benefit to robots falling behind. Sometimes you want priority, sometimes you don't.

Fair...
but it's usually to your advantage to have priority.
You get first pick of the options, and sometimes there is only one new one, or there is only one great one in a new set.
 
It's your prerogative to:
 1) get out of the way
 2) push off course
 3) perform a delaying action to trick people into your line of fire.

Yeah, almost every game someone would prefer not to have priority when they do, and end up squandering a register phase, or WISHING they could squander a register phase.

It's not perfect, but it's simple, and works as a catch-up function which partially addresses the very real problem of leaders advantage in the original.

I'd argue that it makes the game more fun...

What's the best part of roborally?
It's the interaction.  if not for the interaction between the robots, it's just a simple race.
A mechanic that suppresses the leaders, and pushes the trailing robots makes it more likely that the robots will get shot or be pushed, and increases the odds of a photo finish.  My games with the new edition have been closer than the games I played with the original. Many more situations where the leader is surpassed in the last two turns.


68
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Extending the game
« on: March 13, 2018, 02:42:53 pm »
i think you should start with a multiple of 5 cards.
if you don't, some of your initial purchases could be gotten a whole shuffle before an opponents, which is needlessly unfair.

in a two player game, you could require 4 piles, or 12 provinces to extend the game, but I suspect these would hurt the experience.
After all, a good game ends when you are still having fun, and a bad game goes a little past that.  if you manage to extend the game in a way that turns it into a big of a slog, you may have a worse time.

It's probably better to load the slog into the opening, like you would with a 15 card deck, because once your deck is fianlly trashed down, it will end like an ordinary game.

You can also slog up a game a bit by designing the kingdom with poor trashing.  if it is impossible or laborious to trash the estates and/or the coppers, the game will go longer.  For instance, if moneylender were the only trasher, you will still have, at best, 4 dead cards in your deck at the end of the game.

Strong attacks also slow the game.  And if you have witch, AND weak trashing, the game can slog.  I don't want to play slow boards all the time, but I find them to be fun in moderation.

69
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What should Dominion do next?
« on: March 13, 2018, 12:19:42 pm »
...
There were cards that you could buy that were something like Heirlooms. You bought them in "game 1" and then they started in your deck in "game 2" against the same opponent.
...

I don't like the idea of unbalancing the players.  but if the change was global and fair, I would be happy to try and see how it went.

---

A completely new thing (sorry OP) I'd be interested in is better balance between going first and second.
In go, the player that goes second gets (specifics depend on the ruleset) 6.5 additional points as a handicap, which evens out the victories and eliminates ties.
Is there some interesting bonus to make the two positions more equal?

---

An "old" thing I'd like to revisit is "variety matters".  I love the variety cards in cornucopia, and was thrilled to see conclave and imp in nocturne.

70
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: March 13, 2018, 09:48:50 am »
Texas Hold 'Em Night $4

At the start of your next turn, +$2

Reveal cards from your deck until you have revealed three Actions. Set aside the Actions and discard the rest. Until the end of your next turn, at the start of each player's turn, they must play the set-aside cards. Discard these during your next clean up phase.

Uno
Landmark

On a turn where you play your entire hand, and each card played after the first was the same cost or color as the previously played card, take 2VP from here...unless you are caught not saying "uno" for the last card.
-
Setup: put 6VP here per player.


71
Can you walk me through this?  i'm so confused...
I bolded the doublers and triplers above

so, you KC'd (KC.1) a KC (KC.2), then
  KC.2a was not shown to us, but
  KC.2b was a disciple, which doubled 3 conspirators
  KC.2c was a conspirator...

but then we get what appears to be another KC.2c? 
What am i missing?

I don't know if this is what actually happened but it could be something like:
...
KC.1 on KC.2 (not shown)
    KC.2a on whatever (not shown)
    KC.2b on KC.3 (not shown)
        KC.3a on whatever (not shown)
        KC.3b on disciple (shown)
        KC.3c on conspirator (shown)
    KC.2c on conspirator (shown)
rest of turn (not shown)
...

Wow, if that's actually true, it's more impressive to me that we 4 levels of nested replayers (KC, KC, KC, Disciple) than the fact that conspirators were gained and played in the same chain.

72
C plays a King's Court again.
C gets +1 Coin (from Teacher)
C plays a Disciple.
C plays a Conspirator.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C plays a Conspirator again.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C gains a Conspirator.
C plays a Disciple again.
C plays a Conspirator.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C shuffles their deck.
C draws a Conspirator.
C plays a Conspirator again.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C gains a Conspirator.
C plays a Disciple a third time.
C plays a Conspirator.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C shuffles their deck.
C draws a Conspirator.
C plays a Conspirator again.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C gains a Conspirator.
C plays a King's Court a third time.
C gets +1 Coin (from Teacher)
C plays a Conspirator.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C shuffles their deck.
C draws a Conspirator.
C plays a Conspirator again.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C plays a Conspirator a third time.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C plays a King's Court a third time. <-WTF?
C gets +1 Coin (from Teacher)
C plays a Conspirator.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C plays a Conspirator again.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)
C plays a Conspirator a third time.
C gets +1 Buy (from Teacher)

Can you walk me through this?  i'm so confused...
I bolded the doublers and triplers above

so, you KC'd (KC.1) a KC (KC.2), then
  KC.2a was not shown to us, but
  KC.2b was a disciple, which doubled 3 conspirators
  KC.2c was a conspirator...

but then we get what appears to be another KC.2c? 
What am i missing?


73
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« on: March 12, 2018, 03:11:38 pm »
I wish Shuffle iT could somehow make that happen, but man they're so far behind with priorities that are so much greater (good animations, offline support, etc.).
having never played online, i can't tell if you are joking or not.
are the animations and offline support really such a big deal to you that you think that should be handled before giving you more tools to making interesting kingdoms?

74
The one thing I really miss from the original central deck was the priority numbers. I understand why they couldn't use priority numbers on individual decks. And I think the addition of the priority antenna fills that gap nicely, but it does remove some of the uncertainty. Is that robot going to play Move 2 and beat your Move 1? Or will he play a lower Move 1 than you? Although now that I think of it, you could house rule that the faster moves go first with ties being resolved by the priority antenna.

yeah, the loss of priority numbers is sad, but understandable.
I REALLY liked that if you had a higher move (3 vs 2, or 1 vs turn), it was guaranteed to go first in the old version, and it seems a reasonable house rule to restore that, if you are playing with veterans of the old game that are amenable. possibly that adds unnecessary complication to a complicated game that is so beautiful because of how much complication it removed.  also, giving priority to the robots furthest behind is a nice touch that maybe we want to keep, since it prevents the leader from sprinting out of trouble.

you know what i don't miss?  comparing all the priority numbers so often.  good riddance to that.

One of the other great things about the new version is that it has many decent pre-set board setups to use. 
This made me realize that pretty much ever board I ever designed was more complicated than it needed to be, since you can still have fun and be challenged on much simpler boards.

75
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: March 12, 2018, 01:21:41 pm »
Bluff
event - 0$
once per turn, and only if you haven't played any cards so far this turn:
+buy
return to your action phase. 
look at the top card of your deck and set it aside facedown.
you must play that card facedown as any card this turn, naming it as you play it.
any opponent can call "bullshit" to force you to reveal the card as you play it.
if the card was the card you claimed, draw a card, then that opponent gains a -1vp token and discards a card.
if the card was not the named card (or you fail to play the card), the card has no effect, is discarded, take a -1vp token, draw one fewer card at cleanup, and the opponent (that called your bluff, or noticed you forgot to play it) draws a card.

---

Funny...
It's easy to make card that doesn't work.
It's a fair bit of work to make a functional card that specifically bad in a unique way.

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