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Messages - Jeebus

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Rules Questions / Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« on: January 17, 2019, 01:02:34 pm »
To me, it's clear that "+1 Action has no effect" means the text "+1 Action" has no effect, a similar modification to that achieved by Enchantress. "The action you get from +1 Action has no effect" means something different.

It's clear that it means that you can't use Actions from your Action pool when it's not your turn. Indeed Donald has confirmed this in his reply in this thread, stating that you do indeed get the +1 Action. Plus, as Awaclus quoted, the actual rules say this. The reason it says (somewhat misleadingly for the casual observer) "+1 Action" is most likely to differentiate between Actions in your Action pool and Action cards.

If there ever were a -1 Action penalty token, +1 Action should remove it when it's not your turn. It would be very inconsistent if you can get +$ when it's not your turn but not +Actions.

Rules Questions / Re: Shuffling mechanic standards?
« on: January 17, 2019, 12:53:08 pm »
With sleeves it's actually very easy to shuffle well without using a lot of time (compared to other kinds of casual shuffling). Weaving the two halves of the deck into each other a few times plus a little but of overhand shuffling in between does the trick. The problem is making other people shuffle this way. In Mexico, where I'm living now, most people don't know how to shuffle at all. They just kind of weakly "mix" the cards in their hands.

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 17, 2019, 10:39:28 am »
Sure, i was not trying to say that "you should have gotten it from the text", even though maybe it sounded that way. I just meant that without the comma it would be impossible to interpret it in any other way than opposite of the actual ruling. (I had already realized that the comma is the only thing that helps in understanding it.) I was trying to explain it in a way that could make sense from the text, to help understand how it can be interpreted that way. I wouldn't say that the wording is highly misleading, but I agree that it's impossible to know which way to interpret it.

The fact that new things can trigger in the "trigger window" is not stated as such as a rule, it is only inferred from card descriptions, like the famous Secret Chamber/Moat explanation. (This is also the case with several other rules, which is one reason I started making my rules document.) But the more general rule about a "period of time" is actually stated, not just for the beginning-of-turn. ("When two things happen to one player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them.")

Rules Questions / Re: Cards entering and leaving play (Innovation)
« on: January 16, 2019, 09:17:42 pm »
In (2), the Merchant Guild appears and disappears while we're resolving a when-buy ability (for Haggler). Merchant Guild wasn't there either before or after Haggler. I thought for some reason that it had to be there at a moment when we're checking for when-gain abilities to resolve.

That wasn't based on any ruling you've made. I guess it was based on how Dominion Online works - each time you've resolved one thing, it asks what you want to resolve next. It seemed weird that it would add something that wasn't there from the start and that isn't there when it asks either.

I'm not saying it can't work the way you're saying now. I guess it's an easier rule to understand for humans - if something pops in, that's enough for it to trigger. For the developer of the online implementation it's probably way more difficult though. (It doesn't work that way now.)

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 16, 2019, 02:11:07 pm »
To add to what GendoIkari replied, maybe it helps if you realize that there's a comma that you missed: "While this is in play, when you buy a card". The meaning is not what you assumed, that Haggler has to be in play when you buy the card. If so, it would not trigger. Instead, the meaning is that it triggers "when you buy a card", as long as it's in play. It's like it has two conditions to trigger: It has to be in play, and you have to be in the "when you buy a card" window.

Rules Questions / Cards entering and leaving play (Innovation)
« on: January 16, 2019, 01:08:06 pm »
Sorry, another complicated question about triggering and resolving. At least it doesn't involve Band of Misfits or Inheritance.

I'm wondering if I'm understanding this correctly.

1) I have Innovation and Capitalism. With Haggler in play, buy Mint. When-buys for Haggler and Mint trigger.
Haggler: Gain&play Merchant Guild (cost-reduced).
When-buy for Merchant Guild triggers (for buying Mint).
Mint: Trash Treasures, including Merchant Guild.
Merchant Guild: +1 Coffers.
(The Merchant Guild was not in play originally, and not in play when I resolve it, but it triggered.)

2) I have Innovation. With Haggler in play, buy Lab. When-buy for Haggler triggers.
Haggler: Gain&play Procession, playing Merchant Guild from hand (trashing the Merchant Guild).
When-buy for Merchant Guild doesn't trigger (for buying Mint), since it's not in play anymore.

The difference is that in (2), the Merchant Guild is not in play after we have resolved a when-play ability and we're checking for more.

I'm not sure if this is how it's intended to work, but this is my assumption.

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 16, 2019, 12:48:47 pm »
As reported, this works online with gaining Haggler, but it does not work with gaining Merchant Guild, Hoard or Talisman. I assume it doesn't work with Goons either.

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 13, 2019, 10:20:03 pm »
Duplicate, Groundskeeper, Academy, etc, are in another category. They only trigger when a specific kind of card is gained. They never look back at what a card was.

But since an ability may not become available to trigger (indeed, may not even exist (e.g. with BoM)) until long after the triggering gain (as a result of other abilities triggered by that gain), checking the trigger condition at that point necessarily involves checking the gained card at the time of the gain, which is in the past. Right?

Ok, I see what you mean. I don't actually think what you're describing is possible; I don't think it's possible to gain a card, and as a when-gain from that make a when-gain on another card be available. Remember that Innovation can only be used on the first card you gain. But nevertheless I get your point. The rule is that we keep checking triggers, so the trigger apparently has to look at what card was gained, not the card's current state.

Let's compare two simple scenarios:
1) We gain Band of Misfits and play it via Innovation as a Duplicate.
2) We gain Overlord and play it via Innovation as a Duplicate.
In (1), we may call Duplicate to gain a Duplicate. The trigger is gaining a card costing up to $6, which we did. Then we resolve it, and look at the current state of the card.
In (2), it doesn't trigger, since we didn't gain a card costing up to $6.

So yes, I agree that the triggers look at the past. It means that the triggering event never changes. If we gain an Overlord, that's the only triggering event we have for the whole when-gain window. It's still a bit different from Ritual, Treasure Map and Smugglers, because those cards specifically refer to cards in the past, while this is true for all triggers on all cards.

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 12, 2019, 07:49:43 pm »
Generally, card wordings refer to the "current state" of a card (itself or another), with minimal exceptions (I mentioned Ritual, Jeebus added Treasure Map).

From another thread:
Duplicate looks for a card costing up to $6 being gained, which didn't happen, so you can't use it.

I think that means this type of card (those that check the state of a card at the time their triggering event occurred) can also be added to this list of cards that look at the past.

I wouldn't go that far. Ritual, Treasure Map and Smugglers, as part of their play ability, look at a card that was trashed/gained and what its cost/name was then.

Duplicate, Groundskeeper, Academy, etc, are in another category. They only trigger when a specific kind of card is gained. They never look back at what a card was.

Rules Questions / Re: Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)
« on: January 12, 2019, 07:31:40 pm »
Right, you need Innovation, Basilica, Black Market, Scepter/Capitalism, plus a card that gives +Coffers, plus a card that gains on when-buy (like Charm or Haggler)!

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 12, 2019, 06:48:15 pm »
I would think "the next time you buy" can't be the when-buy window you're already in. Compare to any card saying "next turn". You are in a turn already when you resolve the card, but that turn is not your "next" one. The meaning is "the next turn after the one you're already in".

Edit: A practical example: I play an Archive at the start of my turn (via Piazza). I take a card "now and at the start of my next two turns." Do I take two cards now? I don't think so.

Rules Questions / Re: Groundskeeper, Inheritance and Innovation
« on: January 12, 2019, 09:15:56 am »
Duplicate looks for a card costing up to $6 being gained, which didn't happen, so you can't use it.

Changeling additionally requires that the card didn't move from where it was gained, so you extra can't use it.

Right. Of course I've been thinking about Innovation not working with Changeling (or Watchtower, Cargo Ship, etc.) all along, and then somehow forgetting when writing this question. Anyway, thanks for your replies!

Incidentally, this means the Triggered Effects page on the wiki needs to be corrected, for anybody reading this that wants to.

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 11, 2019, 10:15:23 pm »
I actually just discovered this myself. I started this thread to address this question:

I asked about Groundskeeper, which triggers on when-gain, but if the answer is "yes" to that question, then it's also "yes" to gaining Haggler, Goons or Merchant Guild from buying another card. I already tried it with Haggler (your exact example) online, and it works.

You could for instance play Charm, buy a Gold, gain a Goons and play it, and get 1 VP token for buying Gold.

The more I think about, the more I think this is correct.

EDIT: Also with Talisman and Hoard (played via Black Market or Storyteller)

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: January 11, 2019, 07:46:38 pm »
I don't get it. What's the difference between a lowercase x and a multiplication sign?

Times New Roman Italic:

Rules Questions / Overlord, Inheritance and Duplicate/Changeling
« on: January 11, 2019, 03:44:38 pm »
This is a bit different, but kinda related. I have bought Innovation. I buy an Overlord, playing it on when-gain as a Village. Can I now call Duplicate, or exhange it for a Changeling? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". The Overlord currently has the right cost for this, but I assume that the trigger includes the cost: "When you gain a card costing $x" is different from "when you gain a card, if it costs $x".

Checked and behaves correctly online according to my assumption.

Rules Questions / Re: Groundskeeper, Inheritance and Innovation
« on: January 11, 2019, 03:32:56 pm »
I checked, and online it does give you the VP token.

Rules Questions / Groundskeeper, Inheritance and Innovation
« on: January 11, 2019, 03:27:07 pm »
I have Inherited Groundskeeper, and I have bought Innovation.
I gain an Estate, playing it via Innovation on when-gain. The Estate ("Groundskeeper") is now in play, and I'm still resolving when-gains for gaining the Estate. Does the Groundskeeper when-gain trigger now, giving me 1 VP token? If it said, "when you gain a Victory card, if this is in play," there would be no question that it's "yes". But as it is I'm not sure. ...But I guess it should still work?

Rules Questions / Re: Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)
« on: January 11, 2019, 12:00:47 pm »
The original post only mentions that new information could make you decide to spend a Coffers. But with Innovation it could also be that you get Coffers that you didn't have before: You buy a card, leaving you with $1 and 0 Coffers, gaining a Candlestick Maker, playing it via Innovation. You spend the Coffers token and get 2 VP from Basilica.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Who has all the expansions?
« on: January 10, 2019, 12:24:29 pm »
I have all 1st edition sets, except I haven't gotten around to buying Renaissance yet. I also have the 1st edition "Base Cards". I only have the 2nd edition of the base game, and the Intrigue update pack. I have all the promos, 1st edition, and the 2nd edition of Envoy. I used to have some Norwegian sets, but gave them away; I might have some Norwegian promos. I have the promotional mint tin! I keep Coin tokens in it.

Rules Questions / Re: Hands of non-Fleet players
« on: January 10, 2019, 11:14:49 am »
Yeah, it's notable that "previous player" and "player to your right" are not synonymous anymore.

But since those cards do check the last turn of the player to your right, it has to be exactly that, the last turn that player had. Not having a turn isn't having a turn.

Rules Questions / Re: Hands of non-Fleet players
« on: January 10, 2019, 08:21:09 am »
Thanks. I just wanted to be 100% sure how it's supposed to work.

Rules Questions / Hands of non-Fleet players
« on: January 09, 2019, 09:33:28 pm »
During the Fleet turn, do the non-Fleet players keep the hands they drew in their last Clean-up? This matter for Moating etc.

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 09, 2019, 01:48:29 pm »
Yes, what is important is to consider the timing rules:
  • Resolve each ability step by step (effect by effect), in order.
  • Triggered abilities can interrupt after each effect. Resolve them before continuing.
  • Effects happening to several players are resolved in turn order starting with the current player.
  • Several abilities triggering concurrently:
        Resolve them in turn order starting with the current player.*
        A player with several to resolve chooses which to resolve next.
        While resolving concurrent abilities, conditions may change so that another concurrent ability triggers.
        Resolve all the effects of every ability that has been triggered (in spite of changed conditions), and resolve one ability fully before starting on the next one.
  • Lose-track: You can't move a card if it's not where it's expected to be.
  • A Reaction card in your hand can be resolved several times for the same trigger.
*Optional abilities (meaning Reactions) are resolved by the player with the Reaction. Other abilities are resolved by the player who triggered it.

What's implied here too, is that it's important to distinguish between the time when an ability is triggered and when it's resolved.

In addition to this, there are specificities of the abilities (cards) themselves. For instance most abilities that check a card, check the card at the moment the ability resolves. Also, abilities that say "when x happens, if y", check y when it resolves, not when it triggers.

The types of triggered abilities:
  • "when play, first": when a card is played, but before it's resolved
  • "when buy": after a card is paid for, but before it's gained
  • "when gain": after a card is gained (moved) - if several cards are gained, each card is gained in turn (you can't gain several at once)
  • "when trash": after a card is trashed (moved) - if several are trashed at once, all are trashed before "when trash" abilities are resolved
  • "when discard": after a card is discarded (moved) - if several are discarded at once, all are discarded before "when discard" abilities are resolved

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 08, 2019, 09:26:54 pm »
Am I the only person becoming mightily confused, here?

If someone were to produce a clear summary of the various card-getting-a-new-name, card-getting-new-text, card-getting-new-types, card-doing-something-nonstandard-when-played and similar tangled interactions once the dust has settled I, for one, would be very grateful!

With Inheritance, Band of Misfits, Capitalism and Innovation, there are now many weird interactions. The rules document in my signature aims to present them in a clear way. I'm in the process of doing a pretty thorough overhaul (while adding Renaissance). I've mapped most of the interactions, but presenting it in a clear way is also a big challenge. I don't think I should include too many or too detailed corner cases.

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 08, 2019, 11:39:23 am »
As far as I'm aware, Ritual is the only effect that actually uses the past tense and refering to "it cost". So this seems to be a one-off, not a division between 2 different lines of similar effects.

There is one more: Treasure Map. It cares whether you trashed two cards that were Treasure Maps, not what the cards are now. So you can play a BoM as Treasure Map, trash another Treasure Map from your hand (which has to be a real one), then gain 4 Golds. But if you Inherit Treasure Map and trash an Inherited Estate and a Treasure Map from your hand, it doesn't work, because the Inherited Estate was an Estate all along, not a Treasure Map. I tested both online, and they work correctly.

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