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Messages - Jeebus

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51
Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 30, 2018, 05:09:54 pm »
Well, that's not what you wrote before. You specified that the reason RC works, is that it triggers on playing, not resolving. And that's what Donald supported.
It does not trigger on playing, and I did not write that it triggers on playing:
Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage.

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play". (Compare "directly after you finish gaining" and "when you gain".) This is more complicated, but I was trying not to make a huge post with all the subtleties. This is what I get. Let's leave that aside.

The point is that you wrote that RC triggers as a result of playing, not as a result of resolving. You wrote, "So they do play the Action card". Importantly, you did not write, "So they do resolve the Action card".

52
Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 30, 2018, 04:16:09 pm »
Enchantress doesn't say anything about not resolving the card.

According to how I see it, "following its instructions" = "resolving it". That's the very definition of resolving.
What do you think is the difference?

53
Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 30, 2018, 04:10:03 pm »
Enchantress triggers right as you're about to resolve the card, and then it makes you do something else instead of resolving it.
No, you still resolve it. Enchantress changes how you resolve it: you "get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions"

Well, that's not what you wrote before. You specified that the reason RC works, is that it triggers on playing, not resolving. And that's what Donald supported.

There's really no way of communicating about this stuff without being extremely precise. I'm realizing that your first post pretty much added nothing, since, just like you wrote in it, you just repeated what the cards say without giving any clarifications of what you meant with those phrases. For instance, the phrase playing a card, in this context, can be interpreted in several ways.

As to why I think you don't resolve the Enchanted card: As I said, compare with Ironworks/Trader. How do you explain a difference between these two interactions?

54
Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 30, 2018, 03:34:05 pm »
I wrote a much longer threatise on this, but I'll spare you and stick to a shortened version:

1E Royal Carriage: directly after resolving an Action
2E Royal Carriage: directly after you finish playing an Action

Ingix asks why the Enchanted card was not resolved. According to Donald (in another thread), Enchantress triggers right as you're about to resolve the card, and then it makes you do something else instead of resolving it. The other thing (+1 Card and +1 Action) is not the Enchanted card's play ability; compare with Ironworks/Trader. Also, Donald seems to be supporting that interpretation here. So let's go with that for now.

So then we need to interpret RC as triggering on playing a card whether you resolve it or not, but still triggering after you would have resolved it. This is somewhat clearer in RC 2E, but since it's pretty safe to assume that RC was not intended to be functionally changed in the 2E, we still need to interpret "directly after resolving" as not triggering on resolving (which is pretty far away from "reading exactly what the cards say" by the way, although everybody loves easy answers). If it triggered on resolving, it would not work; compare with Trader/Watchtower.

In any case, the answer seems to be what I already said: RC really triggers when/after you play a card, where play means announce, put in play and resolve, but not necessarily any of those if they are cancelled. (Of course we already knew that it counts as "playing" even when you can't put the card in play.)

55
Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 30, 2018, 03:26:25 pm »
Royal Carriage: Maybe the timing is not "after you resolve the play ability", but "after you finish playing", just like the card says.

This is a super weird sentence. It boils down to "maybe the card does what it actually says it does, and not some other thing that's different than what it says it does." Why is this different than saying "Maybe Throne Room doesn't actually double the effect of playing a card, but rather causes you to play the card twice, just like the card says."

Because I was not being very accurate and assuming that I would be understood from the context. (Clearly not.) I was going by the idea that RC triggers on resolving a card, like the 1E card says and the rulebook still says, but then saying that maybe it instead triggers on playing a card - but not the when-play trigger on 1E Reactions (which is the same as but phrased differently than 2E Reactions), which is before you resolve, but rather after you resolve, whether you resolve or not. I'm writing another post to make this clearer.

56
I get that's what it's supposed to be, but wording doesn't make sense.

How does it not make sense? You discard the Coppers, revealed. And then you draw that many cards.

You discard the coppers, revealed? But no coppers were revealed. There's nothing that says to reveal your hand. The syntax is messed up. How does that make sense?
"Revealed" means "also, reveal those coppers, so that we know they are coppers. By the way sorry for saying this so tersely but there's only so much room on the cards and if it had ever confused anyone in playtesting man I would have changed it."

Was “reveal and discard” considered? It should be basically the same character count.

But where are they revealed from? Often things are revealed from the top of your deck, or somewhere else.

Shepherd says "revealing them" instead of "revealed". A few more characters, but it's not like text size hasn't been slightly reduced on cards before.

57
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Teaser
« on: September 29, 2018, 02:38:12 pm »
What I'd really like is a term encompassing Events, Landmarks, and Projects, since they share a selection process.

Donald has used "sideways cards" and "landscape-style cards".

58
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Teaser
« on: September 29, 2018, 02:35:48 pm »
I've made the case before that the whole "card-shaped thing/object" is completely pointless. Call them cards; that's what they are.

This is all that matters:
(1) Buying an Event is not buying a card. (You don't buy the Event card, you buy the effect - or Event.)

All the following is a result of (1):

(2) The price on the Event card is not for buying the card.

(3) "When you buy a card" can't refer to Events.

(4) Cost-reducers can't reduce the cost of Events.

It's still not wrong to talk about Event cards as "Events", just like we talk about Action cards as "Actions".

Event cards are called Event cards in the rulebook. "Event cards" are also part of the setup rules.

When we talk about Kingdom cards, Events, Landmarks and other cards that are included in the game, we are talking about them as cards. So we mean Event cards (and Landmark cards etc). These cards can be shuffled and can be included in the game. Save is an Event card that can be included in a game, for instance if we draw that card from the shuffled pile of cards during setup. But when you buy Save, you buy the Event, not the Event card. When we talk about what's included in an expansion, it's pointless to talk about actual cards as "card-shaped objects".


59
Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 29, 2018, 12:46:26 am »
Even without any clarifying notes, there's no problem here if you read exactly what the two cards say.

Enchantress: "the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions." So they do play the Action card, but the effect of playing it is +1 Card, +1 Action. This doesn't change what the card says. When they finish doing +1 Card, +1 Action, they've finished playing the card.

Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage. When you replay the action, it still says what it usually says, so you get the normal effect of playing it.

I think you're just saying exactly what I concluded, but a bit more inaccurately.

If we follow literally what the card says, Enchantress would trigger on when-play, like Reactions and Urchin - unless you follow this complicated explanation of setting up a later ability on when-play. But that's beside the point anyway. The point is that you never resolve the Enchanted card, and you're not addressing that. But I assume we're in agreement on how Enchantress works: You play the Enchanted card, but you don't resolve it.

Actually, we can't follow Royal Carriage literally either (although I implied that we could in my last post). We know that "when you play" is "after you play". Reactions now say "first", which is code for "after you play but before you resolve". Royal Carriage's "directly after you finish playing" literally would mean the same as "after you play", which is before you resolve. Of course we know from the rulebook that it means after you resolve*. And so we're back to my question. But as I said, if we take the rulebook explanation as inaccurate and interpret "directly after you finish playing" as "after you finished playing and possibly resolving", then it works.

*And don't forget that the first edition said "directly after resolving an Action", which only had the problem of not specifying that it only applied to the play ability. With that version it would be harder to support the interpretation that we are both suggesting. And the new version was intended to make the card clearer, not functionally different.

60
So with Star Chart you don't get to look at your deck after shuffling, right? You set aside the card you want first, then shuffle the rest?

Clearly not, but it's too bad that this card breaks the "when means after" convention. I think "before you shuffle" would be both more correct and clearer.

61
Rules Questions / What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 28, 2018, 02:38:57 pm »
We know that Enchantress doesn't change the actual play ability on the Enchanted card.

We know that Royal Carriage/Ghost/Citadel can replay the Enchanted card for its play ability.

But how can Royal Carriage do that?

I thought that Enchantress makes you get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of resolving the play ability of the Enchanted card. I also thought that Royal Carriage triggers after you resolve the play ability of an Action card. But the Enchanted action card's play ability was never resolved.

I guess my understanding of either Enchantress or Royal Carriage is wrong.

Enchantress: Could it be that the play ability is changed after all, not on the card, but for this play of the card? So that somehow, when you do "+1 Card and +1 Action", that counts as having resolved the card's play ability? I struggle to see how that can be correct.

Royal Carriage: Maybe the timing is not "after you resolve the play ability", but "after you finish playing", just like the card says. The Enchanted card was played, after all. So you play an Action card, then any Reactions etc. trigger, then you resolve the play ability (or not, if it's Enchanted), then you're finished playing it. Now Royal Carriage triggers. This seems more likely. The rulebook actually says that it's "after resolving a played Action card", but of course this just covers the normal cases.

62
Right, it's in the rulebooks that when you trash several cards, "when-trash" stuff is resolved afterwards.

63
Small question: Key interacts with Outpost, but not with Guide, have I understood that correctly?

Yes, "drawing your hand" only happens in Clean-up. So Outpost, Expedition, and now Key Flag.

64
River's Gift can make you draw a card at the end of somebody else's turn. You don't do that when capturing the flag during an opponent's turn. (It could (would have to) be phrased "at the end of your turns" of course.)

Right, thanks. River's Gift would have to be phrased something like "the next time you are at the end of your turn", or better, "the next time you draw your hand".

65
Actually, I wasn't aware that "drawing your hand" was a term with a specific definition. It obviously has to apply to drawing a new hand of cards during Clean-up. It probably doesn't apply to mid-turn discard-your-hand-and-draw effects (Guide, Minion, Scholar). But what about drawing after Donate?

Outpost says: "you only draw 3 cards for your next hand", and Expedition says: "Draw 2 extra cards for your next hand". The rulebook refers to "draw a new hand" as what you do during Clean-up. So apparently "draw hand", (and variously "draw new hand", "draw next hand") is the term applied only to the drawing of your hand in the Clean-up phase.

Donate happens after Clean-up (after your turn). So if you had Flag and bought Donate, you would have six cards in hand, then perform Donate, then draw 5 cards.

Yes, this is the only possible interpretation, otherwise Minion and Scholar would be affected by Outpost played earlier in the turn, which is not the case. (There's no difference between the "+x cards" on Minion, Scholar and Donate. But back to the original question:

Is Flag essentially the same as The River's Gift (+1 Card at the end of this turn), but worded differently (besides The River's Gift being one-shot)?

It's not technically the same, because Flag (like Outpost and Expedition) happens in Clean-up, while The River's Gift happens afterwards. But I don't think that there are any cards currently that can make that distinction matter. So I think for practical purposes it's the same. (The only cards that do anything at the same time as River's Gift are: Baths, Possession [return trashed cards], Necromancer [unflip cards in trash], Save and Faithful Hound.)

66
You did increase your hand size though, albeit by only one card:
Quote
Hand of W, X, Y, Z, Sculptor. No coffers or Villagers. 1 action, 1 buy.
Play Sculptor, gaining Silk Merchant to hand. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, Silk Merchant. No coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 1 buy.
Silk Merchant on-gain triggers. 1 coffers, 1 Villager.
Spend Villager to play Silk Merchant, getting +2 cards and +1 buy. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, A, B. 1 Coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 2 buys.

Not the most effective use of Sculptor by any means, but hey, maybe you really needed that buy to close out the game with a double province or a three pile

Right, I calculated wrong, you increase your hand by 1. As you say, not great, but not terrible.

67
You will find many in the document in my sig.

68
Silk Merchant: Stronger than it looks. It's pretty great with TFB, and it's also nice with Sculptor.

How? It replaces itself and Sculptor by using up its own Villager. For the turn you haven't increased your hand size, only got 1 Coffers token and a Buy. And the Sculptor is now more like a Moat (unless you plan on trashing it).

69
So Ducat kind of means "Coin with the duke's face on it". Heh.

70
It's a bit unfortunate that it's inconsistent with all other +'es, including Villagers. "+1 Coffers and +1 Villager". So you take one... thing... and add it to your Coffers, and then you take a Villager. So the Coin token directly represents a Villager in the latter case, and represents something undefined in the former case - we just know that it goes to your Coffers.

71
Played a game where I had the following cards in my last turn (and the actions to play them). I had drawn my deck.

Tournament, Recruiter, Princess, Priest, Gold, Silver, Diadem.

Which cards should I play and/or trash to maximize coins? I think I figured it out.

To maximize coins specifically, or maximize purchasing power? If you want to maximize coins, you should probably trash Princess with Priest....

Right, what I meant was maximize purchasing power. Trashing the Princess is not going to be the right move, and we can actually ignore the Princess.

72
I suppose you could play a Torturer, and then spend a Villager to increase the chances that your opponent takes a Curse rather than discards; because you're implying that another Torturer is coming. You could do this as a bluff if you didn't draw another Torturer.

Yes, this doesn't seem that far-fetched. We already have a situation where it matters that a Pirate Ship or Minion player chooses what to do after the other players choose their Reactions. In this case, it's clear that you can spend the Villager token before playing (or not playing) another Torturer. But you're not spending it in the middle of resolving an Action, so it doesn't really touch on my question, I think.

73
So when does it actually matter that you can spend Villager tokens even in the middle of resolving an Action card? I guess it has to be with Diadem being played with Black Market, since you don't know what you'll draw from the BM deck. With Storyteller + Diadem you can just spend the tokens before playing Storyteller. But with Storyteller + Venture hitting Diadem, it matters. I don't know if there are any other situations.

74
Played a game where I had the following cards in my last turn (and the actions to play them). I had drawn my deck.

Tournament, Recruiter, Princess, Priest, Gold, Silver, Diadem.

Which cards should I play and/or trash to maximize coins? I think I figured it out.

75
Recruiter looks disgustingly strong on a 5/2.

Yes, this was the first thing I thought. I think it could be the strongest 5/2 opening in the game, with the possible exception of Mountebank.

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