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Messages - Jeebus

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Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 25, 2019, 02:41:02 pm »
Well, actually your description is how Dominion is supposed to work, as described by Donald before. All below-the-line abilities potentially trigger all the time, which is why they either have to have their scope defined ("while this is in play") or be restricted by when they can be resolved ("reveal this from your hand"). Above-the-line abilities are limited by their implied scope "when you play this", Events imply "when you buy this", Landmarks have unlimited scope, etc.

But, the difference is the model of the "triggering window":

Model 1: Some things trigger, and others might trigger while we're in the window.
Model 2: The one you describe: Everything triggers at the same time and never again.

Dominion is apparently using model 1. But it's not only "while this is in play" abilities that would be affected by adopting model 2. Ghost playing Ratcatcher would indeed work the same, but I don't think Ghost playing Hireling or Prince would, since those didn't trigger before they were played by Ghost. I can't find any other differences though.

So... let's use Groundskeeper as an example of a "while this is in play" ability.

When I'm thinking more about it, it seems like in order for it to work according to the ruling, it's equivalent to "when you gain a Victory card, if this is in play". I mean, I can't find any difference between how this would work and how Groundskeeper is supposed to work. In that case it's more like Basilica than Guildhall.

Basilica - When you buy an Action card, if you have $2 or more left...
Guildhall - When you gain a Treasure...

Only the underlined phrase is the trigger. Basilica first triggers, then we resolve when-buy abilities; and this could make a difference because by the time we get to "if you..." things could have changed. On the other hand, Guildhall only triggers if you gain a Treasure, and we don't check the gained card again. It could be a non-Treasure by the time we resolve Guildhall, but Guildhall doesn't care.

So then Groundskeeper is functionally like this: (A:)  When you gain a Victory card, if this is in play...
Again, only the underlined phrase is the trigger. Viewing it like this, it actually also works in model 2 too, just like Basilica.

We can instead view it like this: (B:) When you gain a Victory card with this in play...
(This is similar to how Urchin is phrased, but we have nothing to compare with there, because nothing interesting can happen in that window.)
In this case it really seems like it would work like Guildhall. That means it wouldn't work according to the ruling, not in model 1 nor in model 2.

So how do we have to interpret it for it to work in model 1 but not in model 2? I guess something like this:

(C:) When this is in play, when you gain a Victory card... which is functionally the same as When you gain a Victory card, when this is in play...

Here we're treating "when this is in play" as a trigger (which is what I alluded to in an earlier post in this thread), giving the card two triggers that both need to happen. It's a bit weird to say that "while this is in play" (the actual card text) is a trigger though; it doesn't seem like something that happens in an instant like other triggers.

So I guess Donald could think either (A) or (C) here. I have to say that I'm starting to think that (B) is the most natural interpretation though, which would agree with your feelings.

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 25, 2019, 12:57:01 pm »
Yeah, "the player who orders it" was not a good term to describe it.

Yes, (5) and (6) er effectively the same, but I included it just to clarify that these abilities (Reactions) also work like this.

I see that you kind of already said this in your previous post. The two examples with "When you buy a Silver, each other player..." describe how we have to look at the triggering player to figure out who it's happening to.* And in the other cases we go by who the effect is happening to.

*which works in those examples (and all current cards!), but not in my hypothetical (8). More generally I would therefore say it's better to say that it's the player being addressed, not necessarily the triggering player.

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 03:08:06 pm »
This is how we want it to work. I indicate the player who orders it.

(1) When you do A, do B - you (Haggler)
(2) When you do A, do B, and each other player does C - you (Noble Brigand, Haunted Castle)
(3) When you do A, each other player does B - you (Ill-Gotten Gains)
(4) When another player does A, they do B - the other player (Swamp Hag)
(5) When another player does A, you do B - you (Road Network)
(6) When another player does A, you may do B - you (Moat)
(7) When a player does A, they do B - the player (Embargo, Duchess)

So we see that in every case except (2) and (3), it's the player who ends up doing something. But if we say that "each other player" is done by "you", as GendoIkari suggested, then it's also true for those two cases.

But where does "you" enter the picture in (3)? It's only in the trigger. To know who are doing "each other player", we need to look at the triggering player - unfortunately, because we ignore the triggering player otherwise, most obviously in (5) and (6). I mean, it's still perfectly obvious who is doing it, it just makes the rule harder to phrase.

This rule even works for this hypothetical Reaction:
(8) When another player does A, you may do B, and then each other player does C - you
But here we cannot look at the triggering player to figure out who does "each other player", because it actually says "you" here.

It does not suffice for this one though:
(9) When another player does A, you may do B, and then the other player does C - you
For this we would need to keep the rule about optional abilities. But this kind of thing would probably never exist, because it's directional.

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 02:43:10 pm »
Yes, and I was actually already writing a post about that being a way to solve it. Abilities are ordered by who the effects happen to, and when you are told "each other player", that's an effect happening to you.

This would mean that it isn't exactly the "when you" in Noble Brigand that makes it happen to you.

It would make everything behave the way we expect it. We wouldn't even need the additional rule about optional abilities.

I think there might still be some difficulty in figuring out who the player is who is resolving "each other player" though. Hm...

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 12:54:27 pm »
Maybe this example can distill the problem:

Alice has Inherited Embassy. Bob and Cathy have Road Network.

Alice gains an Estate. Three things trigger: Bob and Cathy gain a Silver (Embassy), Bob draws a card (Road Network), and Alice draws a card (Road Network). Neither of these effects involve Alice.

(1) We go by the triggering player - Alice. Then Alice orders all three effects.

(2) We go by the players it's actually happening to - Bob and Cathy. Then Bob draws a card before Cathy. The problem is that Bob and Cathy can't decide when Embassy should be resolved, since they are two people.

(New version, I deleted the old post.)

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 12:22:02 pm »
I'm not aquainted with the history of all the rulings, but isn't the blatantly obvious difference between buying Noble Brigant and triggering your opponent's Road Network that the former involves an effect that belongs to you (you bought Noble Brigand), while the latter involves an effect that belongs to your opponent(s) (they bought the Road Network)?

I don't think ownership can work (and Donald seems to agree). We would need to define that cube = ownership for Projects, since that's different than cards belonging to you. But then we have Duchess, Landmarks, cards in trash...

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 12:09:08 pm »
I agree that the source of the ability can't be used. In addition to everything you said, you could play a card in the trash, it's not even your card.

When we're ordering those two things, well we are ordering them by the trigger; the effect doesn't provide a way to order them.

Yes, that's how I've been thinking about it to, based on the Noble Brigand / Embargo ruling - quoted above from another thread. But you don't seem to be following this principle when you conclude that Road Network is ordered by Bob.

when you = it's ordered by you
Then it should be:
when another player = it's ordered by another player
Again, to me this means Alice is ordering Road Network when she buys a Victory card.

Anyway I think what makes sense here is to go by the player told to make something happen.

Are you here changing your mind about going by the trigger?

Ok, let's look at "who's being told to do something" (the actual effect) rather than "who's causing it to happen" (the trigger). Again, this is NOT how it should work based on the previous ruling that "when you" by itself means it's happening to you:

Ill-Gotten Gains / Watchtower:
Alice buys IGG. IGG only tells Bob to do something, so in this case Alice has to use Watchtower first, then Bob gains a Curse.

Embargo / Noble Brigand: Alice buys NB. NB tells both Alice and Bob to do something, so then it's unclear who it's happening to. (Of course when we resolve it, it's Alice first, then Bob, but the question is ordering NB vs Embargo.)

Swamp Hag / Haggler: Alice buys a card. Both SW and Haggler tell Alice to do something, great.

Road Network / Haunted Castle: Alice buys HC. Road Network happens to Bob. But HC tells both Alice and Bob to do something, like Noble Brigand.

The way this could work if we want Noble Brigand and Haunted Castle to be ordered by Alice, is that since Alice is involved (she gets Treasures from NB, she gets Gold from HC), it's happening to her. But it also happens to Bob! NB happens first to Bob, then to Alice. HC happens first to Alice, then to Bob. Well... It's Alice's turn, but what if Alice gained HC on Bob's turn? So... it's Alice who triggered it in any case. We're back to looking at the trigger. So then the rule has to be something like, "if an ability happens to several players, it's ordered by the player who triggered it, otherwise it's ordered by the player it happens to". EDIT: I intended it differently than i phrased it. It's more like: "If an ability (also) happens to the player who triggered it, it's ordered by that player, otherwise it's ordered by the player it happens to."

Then I guess we don't need the additional rule about optional abilities, since those always only happen to the "correct" player. Well, unless there's a Reaction like, "When another player plays an Attack, you may discard this. If you do, each other player gains a Curse". Then we need that rule too, otherwise the Attacking player orders the Reaction, an impossibility.

EDIT: This new rule suggestion breaks down with more than 2 players though, like in your example of "When you buy a Silver, each other player gains a Curse" and the same for Copper. Since Alice is not involved at all, only Bob and Cathy, who chooses which one to do first?

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 09:34:53 pm »
Donald's earlier ruling:

For Embargo / Noble Brigand, two things happen when you buy a card. This creates the question, "does Noble Brigand count as happening to you or what," and my ruling is, yes, just the "when you" part by itself is enough to involve you in it.

The same should apply to gaining Ill-Gotten Gains.

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 09:32:21 pm »
I'm gonna guess that it's because Bob draws a card, and not Alice.

Alice's Swamp Hag triggers when Bob buys a card, making Bob gain the Curse.

Bob's Road Network triggers when Alice gains Haunted Castle, but Road Network itself does nothing to Alice; Road Network does something to Bob, so Bob resolves it.

Then what about Alice gaining an Ill-Gotten-Gains? Or Alice buying a Noble Brigand?

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 09:07:30 pm »
My thought was that Road Network happens to Alice, since it triggered when she gained a Victory card.

You have ruled that when Alice buys Noble Brigand with Embargo token, she gets to choose which to resolve first, since Noble Brigand's "when you buy this" means that it happens to her. I assume it's the same with gaining Ill-Gotten Gains: "When you gain this" means it happens to her, so she can choose to use Watchtower before or after Bob gains a Curse. It happens to Alice even though the only thing that actually happens when she resolves it is that Bob gains a Curse.

So it's not the actual ability that decides who it happens to.

Road Network says "when another player gains a Victory card". "Another player" here is Alice. The only difference between this and Ill-Gotten Gains is that it says "another player" instead of "you". The actual ability is the same: Bob does something, Alice does nothing.

So is it different because it says "another player" instead of "you"?

Swamp Hag says "when another player buys a card". If Bob buys a card, he is the "another player". He resolves it since it's not optional.
Road Network: Alice gains a Victory Card, she is the "another player". So... she resolves it since it's not optional. Right?

What am I missing here?

Rules Questions / Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 07:48:30 pm »
If Alice gains a Haunted Castle, and Bob has bought Road Network, who chooses the order to resolve the two when-gain abilities? As far as I can understand from previous rulings, it's Alice who chooses.

The ruling I'm referring to is that optional abilities (currently this only includes Reactions) are resolved by the player making the choice. Other abilities are resolved by the player who triggered it. (Who resolves the abilities matters for determining the order to resolve them.)

This is why Reactions are resolved by the players who choose to use them, even when it's to an Attack played by another player.

So If Alice plays a Swamp Hag, and Bob buys a card, Bob triggered the Swamp Hag's when-buy ability, and since it's not optional for Alice, it's Bob who resolves it. This means that he gets to order it with other when-buy abilities.

Here it's Alice who triggers the abilites, by gaining the Haunted Castle. It's clear that Haunted Castle is resolved by Alice. The less clear one is Road Network. But since it's not an optional ability for Bob, it should be Alice who resolves it.

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 23, 2019, 04:34:57 pm »
As reported, this works online with gaining Haggler, but it does not work with gaining Merchant Guild, Hoard or Talisman. I assume it doesn't work with Goons either.
It would never work with Talisman because innovation only plays actions

You gain Storyteller or Black Market, playing it, then playing Talisman (or Hoard) from your hand. I tried hinting this earlier in the thread.

Dominion FAQ / Re: Playing with 8P
« on: January 23, 2019, 01:08:00 pm »
Definitely you need to play with Robots have lasers, I never heard about anything else.

It's important to lay out a good course, so that the leader has to criss-cross into the others. Then it's about playing your cards well, not just about having nobody pushing you. Also, among good players there tends to not be one player who gets a significant lead (although it certainly can happen).

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 23, 2019, 01:01:14 pm »
The argument I have against the 'naturalness' of the 'period of time'-ruling is that there could be a conceptual difference between the time something triggers ("When you buy...", "At start of your turn...") and the time those triggers are handled. The handling obviously needs to be serialized, but IMO nothing prevents the trigger time to be exactly one point. But of course it is a moot point, it just so happens that your numerous new cases with Innovation, coupled with "While this is in play" effects, strike me as really 'forced'. But I guess everybody has different interactions that they think are natural or not.

Yes, the trigger time could have been one point. This would mean that nothing more can trigger in the "window". It would mean that if you Secret Chamber into a Moat, you can't reveal the Moat. Or alternatively, it could be a special rule for only Reactions that they can trigger in the "window" - so you could use Reactions drawn by Secret Chamber, Diplomat or Caravan Guard (and Market Squares drawn by a trashed Cultist, and also some Watchtower gaining stuff). I guess Donald didn't think about that option or didn't think it was a good idea for Reactions to function differently than other triggered abilities.

When it comes to Innovation, I think it's more of a case of it feeling weird because it allows you to play a card in the "window", something that hasn't been possible before (with the exception of Caravan Guard). However, you're right that when this is coupled with "while this is in play" abilities, it does open up a question that could be interpreted either way. Of course the issue is with those cards, not Innovation. Imagine a card, Insta-Goons: "+$1 / When you buy a card, you may play this from your hand. / While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1 VP."

If you consider Pilgrimmage, I don't understand why you think Mint is different. Each one lets's you select a card from a certain zone and allows you to gain a copy of it, which may not be possible. What is the difference between buying Pilgrimmage with Diadem and any number of Heirlooms in play, or playing Mint and those same Diadem and Heirlooms in hand?  The 3 cards on Pilgrimmage can't really be the difference, because it doesn't add anything, just makes the effect 3 times as big.

Excellent point.

I was vaguely trying to identify cards that let you gain a card of choice from Supply but where you can actually choose a card not in Supply - something that can create confusion and therefore warrants further explanation.

I realize that Smugglers and Changeling are the only cards that qualify. The reason is that they say "gain a copy..." as their first instruction (and "gain a copy" = "gain a copy from supply"). Pilgrimage is different, since the first instruction is "choose cards you have in play". Mint too, since its first instruction is "reveal a card from your hand".

Technically of course, all these cards function the same way: first you choose from a set of cards that is not Supply, then you gain a copy of your choice from the Supply. Smugglers and Changeling are different because the initial choice is implied. Workshop and friends also have this initial implied choice, but the choice is among cards in Supply.

Here, then, is the conclusion: Smugglers and Changeling uniquely give you an unstated choice from a set of cards that is not Supply.

gain a card costing $x = choose a card from Supply costing $x, and gain it from Supply
gain a copy of a card from set x = choose a card from set x, and gain a copy of it from Supply

Of course, that means "after this turn" really has to mean something more like "between normal/Fleet turns."

Or else you have to treat the timing of those extra turn effects differently from all other triggered effects.

I hadn't realized that, that's a good point. I think I've been thinking about "after-turn" and "between-turns" as the same thing.

And you're right that this is technically another example of what I was asking about.

This is not really a rules question, so I wasn't sure if this was the right place, but I thought it might fit better here.

Which interactions do we know of where we are in a "trigger window" of resolving when-x abilities, and this makes another when-x ability trigger?

Classic example: Attack is played, react with Secret Chamber or Diplomat, draw another Reaction-to-Attack card.


Kinda the same: Attack is played, react with Caravan Guard, draw another Reaction-to-Attack card.

Trash a Cultist/Rats/Overgrown Estate, we are in when-trash window: Discard Market Square, draw cards, drawing another (or same) Market Square.

Start-of-turn window: Play a card (via Ghost/Innovation/Piazza/Prince/Summon). If it's a Reserve card like Ratcatcher, can call it now. If it's Hireling, Prince, Fool gaining Lost in the Woods, or Treasurer gaining Key, the start-of-turn ability starts now.

Gain a Duplicate, we are in when-gain window. Play it via Innovation, it can now be called to gain a copy of itself. (Or gain Vassal, play it, it plays Duplicate, call Duplicate to gain another Vassal.)

Buy a card, we are in when-buy window: Gain another card (via Charm, Haggler etc) and play it via Innovation. If the played card is Goons, Haggler, Hoard*, Merchant Guild or Talisman*, it now triggers based on the buy.
*played via Black Market or Storyteller.

Inherit Groundskeeper. Gain an Inherited Estate, we are in when-gain window. Play it via Innovation, it now triggers based on the gain. (Or Inherit Vassal, gain & play it, it plays Groundskeeper.)

Can anybody think of other interactions?

Is the difference because Smugglers says "a copy of a card" instead of just "a card"? What if the text of Smugglers were instead:

Gain a card that is a copy of a card costing up to $6 that the player to your right gained on their last turn.

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't make a difference. I refer you to this thread. Maybe that will address your doubts. Otherwise, maybe it's more practical to continue the Smugglers discussion there? (Not trying to to be rude.)

You could calll duplicate on a knight. You could only gain a knight with the same name, and there is none others.

I refer you to this post.

What I was after though, was cards that give you a choice of several cards to gain, and then might fail to gain a copy.
Hunting Grounds?

Or are you looking for specifically the combination of being given a choice of cards and trying to copy one of them?

Yeah, I think that must be the definition of what I was looking for. Hunting Grounds doesn't really give you a choice of cards anyway. It gives you two choices, you can choose either. Both happen to be gaining a specific cards or cards.

Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.

Is this actually correct though? This isn't my impression of how "gain a card fulfilling X" works from playing online. If this is true, then can you Remodel a Curse into a Curse when all the Curses are out and then not have to gain a Copper or Estate? I didn't think you could do that.

No, that's not how gaining works when you are just told to gain a card. Then your choices are the cards in the supply (of a certain cost/type). That's why I'm saying that only these three cards work like this.

Smugglers has been discussed several times. It's hard to parse, but the meaning is that the choices you have are the cards your opponent gained. Then you gain your choice, if possible.

I'm not quite clear what distinction you're making; does Disciple count?

Your question made me realize that I already have this list of cards that gain a copy: Ambassador, Changeling, Disciple, Duplicate, Jester, Messenger, Mint, Pilgrimage, Smugglers, Talisman

I guess all of those, except Messenger and Talisman, can try to gain a copy of a card that isn't available. I mean, you could even call Duplicate when you gain a Madman.

What I was after though, was cards that give you a choice of several cards to gain, and then might fail to gain a copy. And from this list there are only the three I mentioned. So I got my answer, I think. Thanks!

Dominion General Discussion / Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« on: January 20, 2019, 09:31:57 pm »
Just asking for some help identifying cards. Which cards let you choose to gain a card that you can't gain?

I'm not talking about Torturer when there are no Curses left. I mean cards that give you a choice of cards.

So far I have identified:

Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.
Pilgrimage - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.
Changeling - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.

Are there any others?

Dominion Articles / Re: Cathedral
« on: January 19, 2019, 12:05:45 pm »
for turn 2 you will never be forced to trash copper over estate. If you have 5 coppers in hand on turn 2 you couldn't buy cathedral because of only 2 coppers

He said turns 2-4.

Rules Questions / Re: Complete Dominion rules document
« on: January 19, 2019, 11:01:15 am »
You can't download without signing in.

It would be good if you created an account and gave the file a thumbs up. I'm sure you won't regret having an account on BGG if you're into boardgames. :)
I'm still working on the new version (with Renaissance), but I should be done soon!

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