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Messages - Jeebus

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26
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Male and female cards (again)
« on: April 04, 2019, 10:53:42 am »
I think all Bard, Donate, Devil's Workshop and Tormentor are ambiguous. I mean, they could be women, but I wouldn't say they have to.

Zooming in on Bard and looking at the face and hands, I have no doubt that it's a woman. The others are less clear. I think my decision for Tormentor was based on what seems like breasts.

Maybe Donald can shed some light on Tormentor and Devil's Workshop? Others that maybe were based on instructions could be Plan, Wild Hunt, Skulk, Flag Bearer, Hideout and Barracks.

27
Rules Questions / Re: Idol Count during Resolution
« on: April 03, 2019, 08:29:09 pm »
You're right that this isn't spelled out anywhere for Idol. For someone who isn't used to Dominion's clear and literal card abilities - especially considering how common it is in games that the rules are written in a fuzzy way and you have to deduce the meaning - it's understandable that the way Idol is worded could make you think that you first play all your Idols before you resolve them.

But the way every card works in Dominion, is that you play it, then you resolve it. You don't wait until you've played other cards in-between. Idol is no different. You do exactly as the card says when you play it. It's also important to keep this in mind with other cards and interactions, or you will get several things wrong.

28
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Male and female cards (again)
« on: April 03, 2019, 12:50:23 pm »
By what evidence do you claim the person in the foreground of Barracks is male? And are all the people in the background also male?

The blurry people in the background don't matter; see the description of my criteria above.

But good question about the foreground person. There's at least one other card like that - Arena. I was mainly going by what most artists would intend to be portraying with a person in armor from medieval times. (Barracks should have a question mark like Arena.)

I was also assuming that women didn't usually wear this kind of armor, which is supported by this interesting article: "If we are talking about actual medieval history, women wearing armor was rare and women in plated suits of armor even rarer." But since Dominion art puts women in all kinds of roles that were rare in actual history, maybe this is not a good reason.

I might be that Arena and Barracks should be "unknowns". My first reason still stands though, and is connected to what I wrote above about feminine/masculine features and artist's intent.

29
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Male and female cards (again)
« on: April 02, 2019, 11:13:17 pm »
Are you sure the Donate person is a female?

No; there are many of these I'm not 100% sure of. But I think it's reasonable to go with how an artist would choose to portray a man or a woman - i.e. assuming that there's no reason why an artist (in this context) would choose to depict a man with feminine features or a woman with masculine ones.

30
Isn't this whole thing just what the Dominion Online people have already done?

I see some similarities but more differences. In any case, it would be the other way around, since I did this years before the current Dominion Online.

31
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Male and female cards (again)
« on: April 02, 2019, 03:29:50 pm »
Here is the list updated for Renaissance.

BASE (2nd edition)
Male: Bureaucrat, Laboratoty, Militia, Mine, Moneylender, Smithy, Vassal
Female: Artisan, Bandit, Harbinger, Merchant, Poacher, Sentry, Witch
Both: Festival, Market(?)
Unknown: Library

INTRIGUE (2nd edition)
Male: Baron, Conspirator, Duke, Ironworks, Minion, Nobels, Pawn, Replace, Steward, Swindler, Torturer
Female: Courtyard, Diplomat, Harem, Lurker, Patrol
Both: Courtier, Shanty Town (both are men, or one of each), Wishing Well (both are female, or one of each)
Unknown: -

SEASIDE
Male: Ambassador, Bazaar, Cutpurse, Embargo, Fishing Village, Haven, Lookout, Merchant Ship, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Smugglers, Tactician, Wharf
Female: Explorer, Sea Hag
Both: Native Village
Unknown: -

ALCHEMY
Male: Alchemist, Apothecary, Golem, Herbalist, Transmute
Female: Scrying Pool, Possession
Unknown: Apprentice, Familiar

PROSPERITY
Male: Bank, Bishop, Counting House, Goons, Loan, Mint, Mountebank, Venture
Female: Expand, Forge, Peddler
Both: Grand Market, King's Court, Rabble
Unknown: -

CORNUCOPIA
Male: Horse Traders, Hunting Party, Tournament
Female: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Fortune Teller, Harvest, Princess, Young Witch
Both: Followers, Menagerie
Unknown: Jester

HINTERLANDS
Male: Cartographer, Develop, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Mandarin, Margrave, Noble Brigand, Nomad Camp, Scheme, Spice Merchant, Stables
Female: Duchess, Oracle, Trader
Both: Embassy
Unknown: -

DARK AGES
Male: Armory, Bandit Camp, Beggar, Count, Graverobber, Hermit/Madman, Hunting Grounds, Ironmonger, Junk Dealer, Marauder, Necropolis, Pillage, Procession, Rogue, Sage, Scavenger, Squire, Urchin/Mercenary, Vagrant, Wandering Minstrel
Female: Market Square, Mystic
Both: Band of Misfits, Survivors, Knights
Unknown: Death Cart, Cultist, Forager

GUILDS
Male: Advisor, Butcher, Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Herald, Journeyman, Merchant Guild, Stonemason, Taxman
Female: Baker, Soothsayer
Both: Plaza
Unknown: -

ADVENTURES
Male: Alms, Borrow, Bridge Troll, Duplicate, Ferry, Giant, Hireling, Miser, Pathfinding, Peasant/Soldier/Fugitive/Disciple/Teacher, Quest, Ratcatcher, Raze, Training, Transmogrify, Travelling Fair, Wine Merchant
Female: Artificer, Caravan Guard, Guide, Lost Arts, Messenger, Page/Treasure Hunter/Warrior/Hero/Champion, Ranger, Save, Storyteller, Swamp Hag
Both: Ball, Bonfire, Pilgrimage, Plan(?), Royal Carriage, Scouting Party
Unknown: Raid

EMPIRES
Male: Arena(?), Battlefield, Catapult/Rocks, Chariot Race, Conquest, Delve, Dominate, Gladiator/Fortune, Legionary, Overlord, Patrician/Emporium, Royal Blacksmith, Sacrifice, Tax, Triumph, Triumphal Arch
Female: Baths, Donate, Enchantress, Engineer, Farmers' Market, Groundskeeper, Wedding, Windfall
Both: Advance, Annex, Banquet, Basilica, Salt the Earth, Settlers/Bustling Village
Unknown: Encampment/Plunder, Bandit Fort, Wild Hunt

NOCTURNE
Male: Cobbler, Delusion, Devil's Workshop, Fear, Fool, Greed, Haunting, Leprechaun, Locusts, Necromancer, Night Watchman, Raider, Tracker, Tragic Hero, Werewolf, Zombie Mason, Zombie Spy
Female: Bard, Conclave, Druid, Exorcist, Ghost/Haunted Mirror, Guardian, Misery, Pixie, Pooka, Shepherd, Tormentor(?), Vampire/Bat, Zombie Apprentice
Both: Blessed Village
Unknown: Changeling, Imp, Skulk

RENAISSANCE
Male: Barracks(?), Flag Bearer, Inventor, Patron, Priest, Recruiter, Road Network, Seer, Sinister Plot, Villain
Female: Border Guard/Lantern, Experiment, Old Witch, Research, Scholar, Sculptor, Silk Merchant, Swashbuckler, Treasurer/Key
Both: Acting Troupe, Capitalism, Fair, Improve, Lackeys, Piazza
Unknown: City Gate(?), Hideout

PROMOS
Male: Black Market, Dismantle, Envoy, Governor, Prince
Female: Summon
Both: -
Unknown: Sauna

Totals (with "Both" included):
MALE: 170.5 = 65.3%
FEMALE: 90.5 = 34.7%

UNKNOWN: 17

Breakdown for each set, percentage of female cards:
BASE (2E): 50.0%
INTRIGUE (2E): 34.2%
SEASIDE: 14.7%
ALCHEMY: 28.6%
PROSPERITY: 32.1%
CORNUCOPIA: 63.6%
HINTERLANDS: 23.3%
DARK AGES: 14.0%
GUILDS: 20.8%
ADVENTURES: 39.4%
EMPIRES: 36.7%
NOCTURNE: 43.5%
RENAISSANCE: 48.0%
PROMOS: 16.7%

Update 2019-04-06: Changed Devil's Workshop (Nocturne) from female to male.

32
Updated with Renaissance cards and mechanics.

33
Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room / Mining Village
« on: March 27, 2019, 11:23:20 am »
Lose Track does apply, but it is important to remember that Lose Track never stops you from playing a card, it only ever stops a card from being moved.
Quoted and bolded because it's such a common misreading of the rule.

Slightly more detailed rundown: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19394.msg782045#msg782045
This is at least the third thread recently that boils down to this question.

34
Rules Questions / Re: Sauna and Innovation
« on: March 27, 2019, 10:58:12 am »
I realized this also matters for Citadel after all. If Citadel tries to replay the Estate, even though it fails, it means that Citadel won't replay the next Action card you play.

35
Yes, with the exception that this's own "when you play this"-ability must be chosen last when we get to order Teacher tokens, reaction-to-attack, ..., that also happen when we play this. :-)

This is a completely different topic, but yes. Treasures that do something, and also Noble Brigand, actually do say "when you play this". And of course they work like all other cards that you play: "+" tokens and Reactions happen first. With 2nd editions Donald has now started including "first" to signify that Reactions happen before the on-play ability. (Likewise, Citadel, which also triggers when you play a card, says "afterward". Royal Carriage and Coin of the Realm could also be phrased this way to be consistent.)

36
Dominion Articles / Re: Glossary Update
« on: March 23, 2019, 10:16:24 am »
If you have 0 actions left, Smithy is a stop card (aside from edge cases like Villa or Scepter).
I would then instead say that Smithy is a dead card, like an Estate or a Curse, because you can't play it. I understand stop cards as cards that don't draw upon playing them.

37
Hmm, I though that part was obvious? When Summon says "gain a card", that's the first time it refers to it, so obviously that's when it starts tracking it. The only potential clarification that needs to be added is that abilities that say "when you gain/buy/trash/play/etc this" track their own card from the start, and this includes on-play abilities (which have an implicit "when you play this").

38
Yes, I said it was only Reactions that are resolved in your hand (and not just revealed, see Market Square). Then I said that it could be that it applies to all cards that can be resolved in your hand. What it stems from is not the issue here though, it's still a rule. We don't really know if it applies to all cards or just Reactions, since there are no non-Reactions like that. But it has always only been talked about when discussing Reactions. Donald has even said that if he had handled Reactions differently, he wouldn't need that rule.

39
I covered that in my last post: If at any point a card is not where an ability expects it to be, the ability loses track of it.

This includes an on-play ability on a card expecting that card to be in play (like when a card is played from the trash).

But yes, the rest follows from:
1) An ability can never "get track" again.
2) We're talking about an ability of a card, that is all the instructions that the card does when the ability is triggered. The ability keeps tracking the card all the way until it's done being resolved. Again, see the example with a Princed Reserve card.

40
There is a special rule about Reactions, although not formalized. It's that you can resolve a Reaction card in your hand several times to the same event. That's not a general rule, because then you would get infinite VP with a Goons in play.

EDIT: Well, I kind of take it back. You could state this rule as pertaining to all cards that are resolved in your hand. I don't think any other cards than Reactions can be resolved when they're in your hand.

41
Dominion Articles / Re: Glossary Update
« on: March 22, 2019, 12:38:06 pm »
Stop Card: A card that does not draw any more cards from your deck, like Giant or Gold. If Actions are limited, this may or may not include terminal draw.   

I don't understand the last sentence. Can Smithy be a stop card?

42
Dominion Articles / Re: Towards a New Theory of Discard
« on: March 22, 2019, 12:06:08 pm »
I think first we have to establish exactly what the timing is on Hermit. How does trashing from your discard pile work? Are the cards still in your discard pile or "set aside" while you look at them?

When you're told to "look at" cards from your deck, they are "set aside", not in your deck - e.g. with Lookout. If Hermit works this way, it means that a trashed Cultist can not make you reshuffle, since you have no cards in your discard pile.

Hermit says "look through", but it seems safe to assume it means the same as "look at all the cards". However, this is the discard pile, not the deck, so we don't know if the same rule applies.

Even more relevant, the next instruction is to trash "from your discard pile". Imagine a wording like, "look at all the cards in your discard pile, trash one of them", this would be similar to Lookout. But Hermit instead really seems to say that the card is in your discard pile when you trash it.

Ok, let's assume that. But I think we can still view the first two instructions as one effect. You look through your discard pile, while the cards are still there, and as you do so, you may trash one of them. Then you stop looking at the cards. If any effect disturbs the contents of your discard pile as you're doing this, it just means that you immediately have updated information, since you're still looking.

43
Exactly. If at any point a card is not where an ability expects it to be, the ability loses track of it. This is why I like to use the term ability. It's not each individual effect, it's the whole ability keeping track.

This is why if Prince plays a Reserve card like Duplicate, and you call the Duplicate that turn, Prince still lost track of it (even though it is in play, where Prince would expect it to be).

44
Rules Questions / Re: BoM wording
« on: March 19, 2019, 04:35:59 pm »
Corner case: Vanilla bonus tokens. I'm pretty sure you still get the bonus, but if it never was that card, you wouldn't.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that you get the bonus too.

Quote
Another corner case: Moat and other Reactions. I'm pretty sure the same thing applies. BoM isn't an Attack, but it briefly becomes one.

So I think it does actually matter, but I'm not sure about that.

Maybe. The important thing is that when you play BoM "as" the chosen card, that counts as playing the card. You played a card from a pile with a token. Or you played an Attack card.

45
Rules Questions / Re: BoM wording
« on: March 19, 2019, 12:29:57 pm »
This is Donald's ruling:

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.

BoM immediately stopped being Scout, but that's okay, we still execute the instructions on Scout.

Ingix is right that it becomes the chosen card, then immediately reverts to BoM. But I think it really doesn't matter, since "immediately" means right after we trigger the on-play instructions and before we start resolving them. An Overlord in the trash will instantly revert to Overlord and be Overlord when we are resolving the on-play ability. So it will cost D8 no matter how we phrase it.

46
Rules Questions / Re: BoM wording
« on: March 19, 2019, 10:32:51 am »
There was indeed a long discussion about this, and Donald changed the ruling at least once. The way it works is that when you play a BoM from the trash, you choose a card and get the on-play ability, but the BoM never becomes the chosen card. It's always just a BoM (or bum?) in the trash.

47
Ok, I read through the thread, and of course GendoIkaro had already answered what I wrote. :P

Would Necromancer move cards into play if we cut his "leaving it there"?
Yes, just like Vassal, Golem etc.

Throne Room actually doesn't move anything. Once the card is played the first time, it stays where it ended up. You don't pull Reserves off your mat or move Encampment back from set aside land or whatever. So when BoM ends up in the trash it's not going anywhere.

Throne Room doesn't lose track because it was never keeping track. Throne doesn't care where the card is at any point I can immediately think of.
You always try to put a card in play when you play it. TR tries to put the card into play both times. If there was a card Junk Room, "Play an Action card from your hand, trash it, then play it again", it would put the card into play the second time as long as it was able to trash it. (If the card trashed itself, Junk Room would lose track of it before it could trash it.) This is the reason Vassal and Golem put cards into play.

48
I haven't read all the thread, but this question goes back to the BGG thread where lose-track was first introduced. TR + Mining Village, Mining Village can't put itself into play because it expects itself to be in play. An on-play ability always expects the card to be in play. Wasn't this brought up just a few weeks ago?

EDIT: Ok, it was more than 2 months ago: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19394.0

MV doesn't try to put itself in play (its on-play effect doesn't mention the word play). However you're right that the same principle applies: MV can't trash itself because it's exepcting itself to be in play (though it's perhaps not the best example as even if it didn't lose track of itself it still couldn't trash itself because it's already in the trash).

Yes, the principle is the same because both BoM and M(ining)V try to move themselves from play as their on-play instruction. The unusual thing about BoM is that even if it's just played normally and doesn't lose track of itself, it still can't move itself into play since it's already there. But whenever you're told to play a card, you put it in play if possible (just like the OP recognizes).

The original BGG thread from 2011 also deals with the following situation: You're Possessed and play TR + MV. Now when you trash MV, it's set aside. TR plays it again (but lost track of it). MV can't trash itself now, even though it's not in trash, since it also lost track of itself.

49
I haven't read all the thread, but this question goes back to the BGG thread where lose-track was first introduced. TR + Mining Village, Mining Village can't put itself into play because it expects itself to be in play. An on-play ability always expects the card to be in play. Wasn't this brought up just a few weeks ago?

EDIT: Ok, it was more than 2 months ago: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19394.0

50
Rules Questions / Re: Overlord-Wine Merchant
« on: March 16, 2019, 03:45:42 pm »
I disagree. Under this interpretation, a once played Improve could 'improve' cards for the remainder of the game.

Improve only lets you improve a card that you discard from play "this turn".

Right, I thought about that first. But actually it's not that simple. Let's say I would discard a Smithy this turn, and I choose to trash it at the start of Clean-up this turn. At the start of Clean-up next turn, I could now choose to trash that same Smithy again. The Smithy is lost track of though, so this can't happen in practice.
This is based on a literal (and wrong) interpration of Improve where "at the start of Clean-up" does not imply "at the start of Clean-up this turn".

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