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Messages - Jeebus

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1201
Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 02:43:10 pm »
Yes, and I was actually already writing a post about that being a way to solve it. Abilities are ordered by who the effects happen to, and when you are told "each other player", that's an effect happening to you.

This would mean that it isn't exactly the "when you" in Noble Brigand that makes it happen to you.

It would make everything behave the way we expect it. We wouldn't even need the additional rule about optional abilities.

I think there might still be some difficulty in figuring out who the player is who is resolving "each other player" though. Hm...

1202
Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 12:54:27 pm »
Maybe this example can distill the problem:

Alice has Inherited Embassy. Bob and Cathy have Road Network.

Alice gains an Estate. Three things trigger: Bob and Cathy gain a Silver (Embassy), Bob draws a card (Road Network), and Alice draws a card (Road Network). Neither of these effects involve Alice.

(1) We go by the triggering player - Alice. Then Alice orders all three effects.

(2) We go by the players it's actually happening to - Bob and Cathy. Then Bob draws a card before Cathy. The problem is that Bob and Cathy can't decide when Embassy should be resolved, since they are two people.

(New version, I deleted the old post.)

1203
Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 12:22:02 pm »
I'm not aquainted with the history of all the rulings, but isn't the blatantly obvious difference between buying Noble Brigant and triggering your opponent's Road Network that the former involves an effect that belongs to you (you bought Noble Brigand), while the latter involves an effect that belongs to your opponent(s) (they bought the Road Network)?

I don't think ownership can work (and Donald seems to agree). We would need to define that cube = ownership for Projects, since that's different than cards belonging to you. But then we have Duchess, Landmarks, cards in trash...

1204
Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 24, 2019, 12:09:08 pm »
I agree that the source of the ability can't be used. In addition to everything you said, you could play a card in the trash, it's not even your card.

When we're ordering those two things, well we are ordering them by the trigger; the effect doesn't provide a way to order them.

Yes, that's how I've been thinking about it to, based on the Noble Brigand / Embargo ruling - quoted above from another thread. But you don't seem to be following this principle when you conclude that Road Network is ordered by Bob.

when you = it's ordered by you
Then it should be:
when another player = it's ordered by another player
Again, to me this means Alice is ordering Road Network when she buys a Victory card.

Anyway I think what makes sense here is to go by the player told to make something happen.

Are you here changing your mind about going by the trigger?

Ok, let's look at "who's being told to do something" (the actual effect) rather than "who's causing it to happen" (the trigger). Again, this is NOT how it should work based on the previous ruling that "when you" by itself means it's happening to you:

Ill-Gotten Gains / Watchtower:
Alice buys IGG. IGG only tells Bob to do something, so in this case Alice has to use Watchtower first, then Bob gains a Curse.

Embargo / Noble Brigand: Alice buys NB. NB tells both Alice and Bob to do something, so then it's unclear who it's happening to. (Of course when we resolve it, it's Alice first, then Bob, but the question is ordering NB vs Embargo.)

Swamp Hag / Haggler: Alice buys a card. Both SW and Haggler tell Alice to do something, great.

Road Network / Haunted Castle: Alice buys HC. Road Network happens to Bob. But HC tells both Alice and Bob to do something, like Noble Brigand.

The way this could work if we want Noble Brigand and Haunted Castle to be ordered by Alice, is that since Alice is involved (she gets Treasures from NB, she gets Gold from HC), it's happening to her. But it also happens to Bob! NB happens first to Bob, then to Alice. HC happens first to Alice, then to Bob. Well... It's Alice's turn, but what if Alice gained HC on Bob's turn? So... it's Alice who triggered it in any case. We're back to looking at the trigger. So then the rule has to be something like, "if an ability happens to several players, it's ordered by the player who triggered it, otherwise it's ordered by the player it happens to". EDIT: I intended it differently than i phrased it. It's more like: "If an ability (also) happens to the player who triggered it, it's ordered by that player, otherwise it's ordered by the player it happens to."

Then I guess we don't need the additional rule about optional abilities, since those always only happen to the "correct" player. Well, unless there's a Reaction like, "When another player plays an Attack, you may discard this. If you do, each other player gains a Curse". Then we need that rule too, otherwise the Attacking player orders the Reaction, an impossibility.

EDIT: This new rule suggestion breaks down with more than 2 players though, like in your example of "When you buy a Silver, each other player gains a Curse" and the same for Copper. Since Alice is not involved at all, only Bob and Cathy, who chooses which one to do first?

1205
Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 09:34:53 pm »
Donald's earlier ruling:

For Embargo / Noble Brigand, two things happen when you buy a card. This creates the question, "does Noble Brigand count as happening to you or what," and my ruling is, yes, just the "when you" part by itself is enough to involve you in it.

The same should apply to gaining Ill-Gotten Gains.

1206
Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 09:32:21 pm »
I'm gonna guess that it's because Bob draws a card, and not Alice.

Alice's Swamp Hag triggers when Bob buys a card, making Bob gain the Curse.

Bob's Road Network triggers when Alice gains Haunted Castle, but Road Network itself does nothing to Alice; Road Network does something to Bob, so Bob resolves it.

Then what about Alice gaining an Ill-Gotten-Gains? Or Alice buying a Noble Brigand?

1207
Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 09:07:30 pm »
My thought was that Road Network happens to Alice, since it triggered when she gained a Victory card.

You have ruled that when Alice buys Noble Brigand with Embargo token, she gets to choose which to resolve first, since Noble Brigand's "when you buy this" means that it happens to her. I assume it's the same with gaining Ill-Gotten Gains: "When you gain this" means it happens to her, so she can choose to use Watchtower before or after Bob gains a Curse. It happens to Alice even though the only thing that actually happens when she resolves it is that Bob gains a Curse.

So it's not the actual ability that decides who it happens to.

Road Network says "when another player gains a Victory card". "Another player" here is Alice. The only difference between this and Ill-Gotten Gains is that it says "another player" instead of "you". The actual ability is the same: Bob does something, Alice does nothing.

So is it different because it says "another player" instead of "you"?

Swamp Hag says "when another player buys a card". If Bob buys a card, he is the "another player". He resolves it since it's not optional.
Road Network: Alice gains a Victory Card, she is the "another player". So... she resolves it since it's not optional. Right?

What am I missing here?

1208
Rules Questions / Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 07:48:30 pm »
If Alice gains a Haunted Castle, and Bob has bought Road Network, who chooses the order to resolve the two when-gain abilities? As far as I can understand from previous rulings, it's Alice who chooses.



The ruling I'm referring to is that optional abilities (currently this only includes Reactions) are resolved by the player making the choice. Other abilities are resolved by the player who triggered it. (Who resolves the abilities matters for determining the order to resolve them.)

This is why Reactions are resolved by the players who choose to use them, even when it's to an Attack played by another player.

So If Alice plays a Swamp Hag, and Bob buys a card, Bob triggered the Swamp Hag's when-buy ability, and since it's not optional for Alice, it's Bob who resolves it. This means that he gets to order it with other when-buy abilities.

Here it's Alice who triggers the abilites, by gaining the Haunted Castle. It's clear that Haunted Castle is resolved by Alice. The less clear one is Road Network. But since it's not an optional ability for Bob, it should be Alice who resolves it.

1209
Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 23, 2019, 04:34:57 pm »
As reported, this works online with gaining Haggler, but it does not work with gaining Merchant Guild, Hoard or Talisman. I assume it doesn't work with Goons either.
It would never work with Talisman because innovation only plays actions

You gain Storyteller or Black Market, playing it, then playing Talisman (or Hoard) from your hand. I tried hinting this earlier in the thread.

1210
Dominion FAQ / Re: Playing with 8P
« on: January 23, 2019, 01:08:00 pm »
Definitely you need to play with Robots have lasers, I never heard about anything else.

It's important to lay out a good course, so that the leader has to criss-cross into the others. Then it's about playing your cards well, not just about having nobody pushing you. Also, among good players there tends to not be one player who gets a significant lead (although it certainly can happen).

1211
Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 23, 2019, 01:01:14 pm »
The argument I have against the 'naturalness' of the 'period of time'-ruling is that there could be a conceptual difference between the time something triggers ("When you buy...", "At start of your turn...") and the time those triggers are handled. The handling obviously needs to be serialized, but IMO nothing prevents the trigger time to be exactly one point. But of course it is a moot point, it just so happens that your numerous new cases with Innovation, coupled with "While this is in play" effects, strike me as really 'forced'. But I guess everybody has different interactions that they think are natural or not.

Yes, the trigger time could have been one point. This would mean that nothing more can trigger in the "window". It would mean that if you Secret Chamber into a Moat, you can't reveal the Moat. Or alternatively, it could be a special rule for only Reactions that they can trigger in the "window" - so you could use Reactions drawn by Secret Chamber, Diplomat or Caravan Guard (and Market Squares drawn by a trashed Cultist, and also some Watchtower gaining stuff). I guess Donald didn't think about that option or didn't think it was a good idea for Reactions to function differently than other triggered abilities.

When it comes to Innovation, I think it's more of a case of it feeling weird because it allows you to play a card in the "window", something that hasn't been possible before (with the exception of Caravan Guard). However, you're right that when this is coupled with "while this is in play" abilities, it does open up a question that could be interpreted either way. Of course the issue is with those cards, not Innovation. Imagine a card, Insta-Goons: "+$1 / When you buy a card, you may play this from your hand. / While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1 VP."

1212
If you consider Pilgrimmage, I don't understand why you think Mint is different. Each one lets's you select a card from a certain zone and allows you to gain a copy of it, which may not be possible. What is the difference between buying Pilgrimmage with Diadem and any number of Heirlooms in play, or playing Mint and those same Diadem and Heirlooms in hand?  The 3 cards on Pilgrimmage can't really be the difference, because it doesn't add anything, just makes the effect 3 times as big.

Excellent point.

I was vaguely trying to identify cards that let you gain a card of choice from Supply but where you can actually choose a card not in Supply - something that can create confusion and therefore warrants further explanation.

I realize that Smugglers and Changeling are the only cards that qualify. The reason is that they say "gain a copy..." as their first instruction (and "gain a copy" = "gain a copy from supply"). Pilgrimage is different, since the first instruction is "choose cards you have in play". Mint too, since its first instruction is "reveal a card from your hand".

Technically of course, all these cards function the same way: first you choose from a set of cards that is not Supply, then you gain a copy of your choice from the Supply. Smugglers and Changeling are different because the initial choice is implied. Workshop and friends also have this initial implied choice, but the choice is among cards in Supply.

Here, then, is the conclusion: Smugglers and Changeling uniquely give you an unstated choice from a set of cards that is not Supply.

gain a card costing $x = choose a card from Supply costing $x, and gain it from Supply
gain a copy of a card from set x = choose a card from set x, and gain a copy of it from Supply

1213
Of course, that means "after this turn" really has to mean something more like "between normal/Fleet turns."

Or else you have to treat the timing of those extra turn effects differently from all other triggered effects.

I hadn't realized that, that's a good point. I think I've been thinking about "after-turn" and "between-turns" as the same thing.

And you're right that this is technically another example of what I was asking about.

1214
This is not really a rules question, so I wasn't sure if this was the right place, but I thought it might fit better here.

Which interactions do we know of where we are in a "trigger window" of resolving when-x abilities, and this makes another when-x ability trigger?

• Classic example: Attack is played, react with Secret Chamber or Diplomat, draw another Reaction-to-Attack card.

Others:

• Kinda the same: Attack is played, react with Caravan Guard, draw another Reaction-to-Attack card.

• Trash a Cultist/Rats/Overgrown Estate, we are in when-trash window: Discard Market Square, draw cards, drawing another (or same) Market Square.

• Start-of-turn window: Play a card (via Ghost/Innovation/Piazza/Prince/Summon). If it's a Reserve card like Ratcatcher, can call it now. If it's Hireling, Prince, Fool gaining Lost in the Woods, or Treasurer gaining Key, the start-of-turn ability starts now.

• Gain a Duplicate, we are in when-gain window. Play it via Innovation, it can now be called to gain a copy of itself. (Or gain Vassal, play it, it plays Duplicate, call Duplicate to gain another Vassal.)

• Buy a card, we are in when-buy window: Gain another card (via Charm, Haggler etc) and play it via Innovation. If the played card is Goons, Haggler, Hoard*, Merchant Guild or Talisman*, it now triggers based on the buy.
*played via Black Market or Storyteller.

• Inherit Groundskeeper. Gain an Inherited Estate, we are in when-gain window. Play it via Innovation, it now triggers based on the gain. (Or Inherit Vassal, gain & play it, it plays Groundskeeper.)

Can anybody think of other interactions?


1215
Is the difference because Smugglers says "a copy of a card" instead of just "a card"? What if the text of Smugglers were instead:

Gain a card that is a copy of a card costing up to $6 that the player to your right gained on their last turn.

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't make a difference. I refer you to this thread. Maybe that will address your doubts. Otherwise, maybe it's more practical to continue the Smugglers discussion there? (Not trying to to be rude.)

1216
You could calll duplicate on a knight. You could only gain a knight with the same name, and there is none others.

I refer you to this post.

1217
What I was after though, was cards that give you a choice of several cards to gain, and then might fail to gain a copy.
Hunting Grounds?

Or are you looking for specifically the combination of being given a choice of cards and trying to copy one of them?

Yeah, I think that must be the definition of what I was looking for. Hunting Grounds doesn't really give you a choice of cards anyway. It gives you two choices, you can choose either. Both happen to be gaining a specific cards or cards.

1218
Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.

Is this actually correct though? This isn't my impression of how "gain a card fulfilling X" works from playing online. If this is true, then can you Remodel a Curse into a Curse when all the Curses are out and then not have to gain a Copper or Estate? I didn't think you could do that.

No, that's not how gaining works when you are just told to gain a card. Then your choices are the cards in the supply (of a certain cost/type). That's why I'm saying that only these three cards work like this.

Smugglers has been discussed several times. It's hard to parse, but the meaning is that the choices you have are the cards your opponent gained. Then you gain your choice, if possible.

1219
I'm not quite clear what distinction you're making; does Disciple count?

Your question made me realize that I already have this list of cards that gain a copy: Ambassador, Changeling, Disciple, Duplicate, Jester, Messenger, Mint, Pilgrimage, Smugglers, Talisman

I guess all of those, except Messenger and Talisman, can try to gain a copy of a card that isn't available. I mean, you could even call Duplicate when you gain a Madman.

What I was after though, was cards that give you a choice of several cards to gain, and then might fail to gain a copy. And from this list there are only the three I mentioned. So I got my answer, I think. Thanks!

1220
Dominion General Discussion / Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« on: January 20, 2019, 09:31:57 pm »
Just asking for some help identifying cards. Which cards let you choose to gain a card that you can't gain?

I'm not talking about Torturer when there are no Curses left. I mean cards that give you a choice of cards.

So far I have identified:

Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.
Pilgrimage - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.
Changeling - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.

Are there any others?

1221
Dominion Articles / Re: Cathedral
« on: January 19, 2019, 12:05:45 pm »
for turn 2 you will never be forced to trash copper over estate. If you have 5 coppers in hand on turn 2 you couldn't buy cathedral because of only 2 coppers

He said turns 2-4.

1222
Rules Questions / Re: Complete Dominion rules document
« on: January 19, 2019, 11:01:15 am »
You can't download without signing in.

It would be good if you created an account and gave the file a thumbs up. I'm sure you won't regret having an account on BGG if you're into boardgames. :)
I'm still working on the new version (with Renaissance), but I should be done soon!

1223
Rules Questions / Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« on: January 17, 2019, 01:02:34 pm »
To me, it's clear that "+1 Action has no effect" means the text "+1 Action" has no effect, a similar modification to that achieved by Enchantress. "The action you get from +1 Action has no effect" means something different.

It's clear that it means that you can't use Actions from your Action pool when it's not your turn. Indeed Donald has confirmed this in his reply in this thread, stating that you do indeed get the +1 Action. Plus, as Awaclus quoted, the actual rules say this. The reason it says (somewhat misleadingly for the casual observer) "+1 Action" is most likely to differentiate between Actions in your Action pool and Action cards.

If there ever were a -1 Action penalty token, +1 Action should remove it when it's not your turn. It would be very inconsistent if you can get +$ when it's not your turn but not +Actions.

1224
Rules Questions / Re: Shuffling mechanic standards?
« on: January 17, 2019, 12:53:08 pm »
With sleeves it's actually very easy to shuffle well without using a lot of time (compared to other kinds of casual shuffling). Weaving the two halves of the deck into each other a few times plus a little but of overhand shuffling in between does the trick. The problem is making other people shuffle this way. In Mexico, where I'm living now, most people don't know how to shuffle at all. They just kind of weakly "mix" the cards in their hands.

1225
Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 17, 2019, 10:39:28 am »
Sure, i was not trying to say that "you should have gotten it from the text", even though maybe it sounded that way. I just meant that without the comma it would be impossible to interpret it in any other way than opposite of the actual ruling. (I had already realized that the comma is the only thing that helps in understanding it.) I was trying to explain it in a way that could make sense from the text, to help understand how it can be interpreted that way. I wouldn't say that the wording is highly misleading, but I agree that it's impossible to know which way to interpret it.

The fact that new things can trigger in the "trigger window" is not stated as such as a rule, it is only inferred from card descriptions, like the famous Secret Chamber/Moat explanation. (This is also the case with several other rules, which is one reason I started making my rules document.) But the more general rule about a "period of time" is actually stated, not just for the beginning-of-turn. ("When two things happen to one player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them.")

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