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51

Rules Questions / Wayfarer and "last other card"

« on: May 14, 2020, 07:29:59 pm »

Wayfarer: "This has the same cost as the last other card gained this turn, if any."

According to the rules, this means "when anyone gains a card other than a Wayfarer". So Wayfarer never copies its own cost. I guess if it copied its own cost, it would revert to $6 after it was gained(?). Instead it keeps copying the cost of the card gained before it.

But does "other card" literally mean "other than Wayfarer", or does it mean "differently named than this"?

Let's say I play with old Inheritance, and I inherit Wayfarer.
I gain a Wayfarer. Do my Estates now cost $6?
What if my Estates cost for instance $4, and I gain an Estate? Do my Estates now revert back to $2?

52

Rules Questions / Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard

« on: May 14, 2020, 03:52:40 pm »

"You may discard your hand for +5 Cards."

Do you get +5 Cards if you have no cards in hand to discard? (Let's say you had no cards when you played Hunting Lodge and the -1 Card token was on your deck.)
Normally, "do x for y" means that you try to do x, but you don't get y if you failed. Hunting Lodge doesn't have the specification of Tactition ("if you have at least one card in hand"). But is not discarding any cards considered discarding your hand?

53

Rules Questions / Cost of Animal Fair revisited

« on: April 11, 2020, 02:53:37 pm »

Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.

I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.

Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.

Wayfarer made me realize it's not that simple. An alternate cost means it applies to all Animal Fairs. What if you Swindler one, can you choose the alternate cost of "$0 and trash an Action card from your hand"? That wouldn't make any sense, so the alternate cost has to apply only when you buy it. It can't apply when you pay for it (like the card says), because that would mean you could never buy it for the alternate cost according to the rules (except if you have $7). So it has to be an alternate cost that you can choose when you choose which card to buy. So I guess it is some kind of trigger at a very weird time, "when you would buy a card" maybe.

I'm going to conclude that Donald misspoke when he said that Animal Fair has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card. It contradicts the card text, it contradicts what he said in the preview, and it contradicts several statements from the rules:

"Some cards in Menagerie have costs marked with a *. Animal Fair uses it as a reminder that you can buy the card another way. Destrier, Fisherman, and Wayfarer all use the * because they have costs that can change during a turn."

"Animal Fair: When buying this card, you can trash an Action card from your hand instead of paying $7."

Also, right after he wrote that, Donald upvoted a post that contradicts it.

Rather, the conclusion must be my alternative 3: Animal Fair has a special unstated rule which means you're allowed to choose it when buying even if you can't afford it.
This is actually pretty much stated in the rulebook: "You can only do this if you have an Action card in hand to trash. You can do this even if you do not have $7."

54

Dominion General Discussion / "You may" on Events

« on: March 23, 2020, 01:35:41 pm »

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, or maybe someone just understands it. Why do Advance, Quest, Delay and Enhance start with "you may"? Does it make any difference, since you could just choose not to buy it?

55

Rules Questions / Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token, -1 Card token)

« on: March 23, 2020, 11:14:36 am »

I've asked Donald whether Chameleon can override Enchantress like other Ways. (Yes, the rulebook doesn't say otherwise.)

We've had a long thread (about Lantern, Enchantress and Chameleon), and there are two ways of reading Chameleon. In both cases Chameleon triggers right when you're about to follow the instructions/ability on the played card.
1) Chameleon replaces the ability with itself (identical ability) and sets up future effects to happen whenever you get to resolving +$ and +Cards.
2) Chameleon replaces the ability with a modified version where all the +$ and +Cards that you would get this turn are already changed.

Chameleon seems to read like the first interpretation. That means you're set to follow the card's instructions when Enchantress tries to replace them, so that would seem to mean that Enchantress succeeds. But maybe the ruling could still be that Chameleon wins, maybe because Enchantress somehow "loses track" of an ability that has been removed and put back?

But, there's another interaction where it absolutely matters which timing Chameleon has: your -$1 token.
If it's the second interpretation, Militia gets changed to +2 Cards and you keep your -$1 token. If it's the first interpretation, Milita is still +$2, but when you would get those $2, you can choose which to resolve first: your -$1 token, or Chameleon's effect of giving you +Cards instead of +$. So you can either lose your token and get +1 Card, or keep your token and get +2 Cards.

Edit: GendoIkari has noted that it also applies to your -1 Card token.

56

Rules Questions / Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate

« on: March 21, 2020, 03:28:47 pm »

Mountain Pass: "When you are the first player to gain a Province, after that turn..."

If a player gains a Province during Donate, it's nobody's turn. So then I guess Mountain Pass will never trigger during that game?

57

Dominion General Discussion / Silly things to do during Donate

« on: March 21, 2020, 03:06:48 pm »

With Way of the Mouse and some of the Reaction cards, you could in theory play all kinds of cards during a player's Donate. But it wouldn't be anybody's turn. So if you play Fortune several times, you double your money each time!

58

Rules Questions / Order of Courtier bonuses

« on: March 21, 2020, 02:35:31 pm »

Courtier doesn't say which order to resolve the chosen bonuses in. Now with Way of the Chameleon, it can matter. I assume it's in the order listed? That's what Trusted Steed and Scrap say. (Pawn used to say you choose the order, but the new rulebook doesn't specify, and as far as I can tell it still doesn't matter.)

59

Rules Questions / Does Lantern override Enchantress?

« on: March 19, 2020, 03:38:38 pm »

Realizing that a Way overrides Enchantress made me think that Lantern could work the same way. When you get to resolving the play ability of the Enchanted Border Guard, you can choose to apply Enchantress first and then Lantern. The question then is, what does Lantern do? Obviously it tells you to resolve a modified version of Border Guard's play ability (similar to Way of the Chamelion), but does it only work when you were already going to resolve that exact ability, or does it already "know" the whole "modified Border Guard ability" and just cares that you were going to resolve a Border Guard?

The latter case would mean that "reveal 3 cards and discard 2, it takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn" implicitly means the whole text: "Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand and discard the others. If all were Actions, take the Lantern or Horn."

60

Rules Questions / Discard Patron to Hostelry

« on: March 17, 2020, 02:19:13 pm »

With Capitalism Patron is a Treasure. If you discard it to Hosterly, I expect that you get +1 Coffers since it does say "revealed"?

61

Dominion General Discussion / Second-edition cards working differently with Way of the Chameleon

« on: March 10, 2020, 09:10:59 am »

None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received

That's definitely not true. There are a handful of cards which combo differently between editions as a result of intentional functional changes they received. I already listed some of them for you, such as Possession, which will interact with cards which cost/give debt in a completely different way, and Trade Route, which combos with cards like Hunting Grounds in 2E but not in 1E.

Or if they do, it's extremely marginal. That is not the case with 1E and 2E Cellar on a board with Way of the Chameleon.

"Marginal" in this case seems like a matter of opinion. I don't personally see how it's any less marginal than Trade Route working with on-trash VP gainers differently.

Posession handles an entire mechanic differently depending on which version you use. To me, that's far less marginal than this Way of the Chameleon discrepancy.

Possession is not a 2E change, it was already changed with Empires. For people buying Empires, the change was already given in the rulebook. 2E did change Possession from what was stated in the Empires rulebooks, by removing the interaction with tokens other than Debt tokens. This was a good change, because it was bad the way it was, but it would have been better if that change hadn't been made in the Empires rulebooks at all. Which goes along with only change what is absolutely necessary.

Yes, Trade Route + Hunting Grounds is of course extremely marginal. It most games with those two cards, it won't even trigger, and if it does it's +$1 once or twice (in total among the players). The Chameleon combos are persistent and much more likely to matter.

62

Rules Questions / Model for "when you play" triggers

« on: March 07, 2020, 03:40:19 pm »

For a while I’ve been working from a model of “when you play” abilities triggering at the same time although they are resolved at different points. I’ve found this to be the best way to explain the timing while being largely in line with how the cards are phrased. It also explains how Royal Carriage works with Enchantress in a clear way.

There are three types of triggered abilities that all say “when you play”.*
* when you play, first (before resolving): Reactions, Urchin, Kiln
* when you play, after (after resolving): cards like Citadel (Royal Carriage and Coin of the Realm have the same timing, and I will assume they have the same phrasing, Citadel’s text being the latest version of that phrasing)
* when you play (when you would resolve): Enchantress, Lantern, Ways

I here use “resolve” synonymously with “follow the instructions”, since it’s shorter.

My model for playing a card is (MODEL A):
1) Play card. All “when you play” abilities (of all three types) trigger.
2) Before you resolve the card: Resolve Reactions etc.
3) When you would resolve the card: Resolve Enchantress etc.
4) Resolve the played card.
5) After you resolve the card: Resolve Royal Carriage etc.

The cards all say “when you play”, and this way that’s how we interpret them. It’s akin to how a card’s play ability happens when you resolve it but might set up future effects. For instance, Charm happens when you play (resolve) it, but part of that is setting up something “the next time you buy a card.” As mentioned, this also makes it easy to see how Royal Carriage triggers (and is subsequently resolved) even when we don’t resolve an Enchanted card’s play ability.

I’ve used this model to make explaining clearer and easier (and more in line with card texts). But I’ve realized that it actually has some functional differences compared to the alternative model.

This is the alternative model (MODEL B):
1) Play card.
2) Before you resolve the card: Reactions etc. trigger and are resolved.
3) When you would resolve the card: Enchantress etc. trigger and are resolved.
4) Resolve the played card.
5) After you resolve the card: Royal Carriage etc. trigger and are resolved.

This means that:
“when you play a card, first” actually means “before resolving a played card”.
“when you play a card, after” actually means “after resolving a played card”.
“when you play a card, instead of resolving” actually means “when you would resolve a played card, instead”.

Here are some differences:

Champion has been ruled in different ways, but was ruled as “after resolving” until recently. Going by that ruling, it would work differently depending on the model. With model A, its own when-play ability (“+1 Action”) would not trigger upon it being played, since the ongoing ability would not be active yet in step 1; it would activate in step 4. Since it was not triggered, it would not be resolved in step 5. With model B, however, the when-play ability would trigger and be resolved in step 5, giving you one more Action.

Enchantress: There needs to be a way for you to play a Sheepdog or a Black Cat in step 2 of playing an Enchanted card. Currently I don’t see a way, but it could happen if another player’s Caravan Guard (reacting to your attack), via some Way, makes that player gain a Victory card or makes you gain a card. In that case, it would be like this with model A: Play Militia as your first card, Enchantress and Reactions trigger (step 1), you end up playing a Black Cat (step 2) but Enchantress has already triggered on the first played card, then Enchantress is resolved on Militia. With model B it would be different: Play Militia as your first card, play Black Cat (step 2), Enchantress triggers (and is resolved) when you would resolve the Black Cat, since that is the first card you would resolve this turn, then resolve Militia normally.

Sauna and Merchant: The ruling is that Sauna and Merchant is “after resolving”. Play Sauna, then play Silver, trashing Catacombs and gaining Merchant, playing the Merchant via Innovation. With model A it would go: Play Silver, Sauna’s “when play Silver” ability triggers (step 1), resolve Silver, resolve Sauna (step 5) which leads to playing Merchant, now you are still in step 5 for Silver, but Merchant’s “when play Silver” ability never triggered for this Silver. With model B it would go: Play Silver, resolve Silver, trigger Sauna (step 5) and resolve it which leads to playing Merchant, now you are still in step 5 for Silver, so Merchant also triggers and is resolved, meaning you get +$1.

Which model is Dominion (or should Dominion be) using?


*Some Treasures (and Noble Brigand) also say this. These are not triggered abilities; they are normal play abilities that work exactly like all other cards that you play.

63

Rules Questions / Cards that move a card twice

« on: January 14, 2020, 05:41:40 pm »

I have identified these:

Play and move: Prince, Procession, Counterfeit
Gain and move: Replace, Summon
Discard and move: Vassal, Warrior

Are there any others? I'm not interested in setting aside because nothing can interfere with that. This is regarding lose-track.

EDIT: I'm not interested in cards that set aside or reveal a card as the FIRST movement, like Bandit, Wishing Well, Sentry, Golem, etc., since nothing can interfere in the middle. Prince actually first plays a card, THEN sets it aside. Something can interfere in the middle then.

64

Rules Questions / New lose-track rule: The Sun's Gift

« on: January 13, 2020, 08:56:05 pm »

I gain a Blessed Village onto my deck (e.g. with Artificer) and receive The Sun's Gift. I leave the Blessed Village on top. I'm pretty sure that under the old lose-track rule the Blessed Village was now lost track of. I can't see any reason that it would be different with the new rule?

65

Rules Questions / Help to check logic re: Lantern and Inheritance

« on: January 12, 2020, 01:05:32 pm »

I wonder of someone could check if my conclusions are correct in these sections from my rules document? It's easy to miss stuff with all this complicated stuff.

ENTRY: BORDER GUARD

* 2019-errata Lantern: The new version of Lantern triggers when you play any Border Guard instead of changing just your Border Guards. The differences are detailed below.

* Clarification: With the 2019-errata version of Inheritance, if you have your Estate token on a Border Guard and play an Inherited Estate...
    (pre-2019 errata Lantern) ...the set-aside Border Guard is yours, so it will be changed by Lantern.
    (2019 errata Lantern) ...you play the set-aside Border Guard, so Lantern will trigger.

* Clarification: If you somehow play a Border Guard that is in the trash or in the Supply (see PLAY A CARD WHILE LEAVING IT)...
    (pre-2019 errata Lantern) ...it will not be changed by Lantern, since only your Border Guards are changed by Lantern.
    (2019 errata Lantern) ...Lantern will trigger.

ENTRY: YOUR ESTATE TOKEN -- PRE-2019-ERRATA VERSION

* With Border Guard and Lantern (pre-2019-errata version): If you have Lantern, your Border Guards’ play ability is changed. This means that Inherited Estates will be changed: If you have your Estate token on a Border Guard, that card will be changed by Lantern, and your Estates will have the ability of that card. (On the other hand, Horn only triggers when you discard a Border Guard, not an Estate.)

* With Border Guard and Lantern (2019-errata version): If you have your Estate token on a Border Guard, Lantern will not matter when you play an Inherited Estate, since Lantern only triggers when you play a Border Guard, not an Estate.

66

Rules Questions / Phrasing the new Reaction timing rule

« on: October 19, 2019, 09:01:50 pm »

Donald has changed the timing rule/ruling for Reactions. My understanding is that the new rule works exactly as Dane-m described in this post.

Donald says that this new rule is very clear and easy to understand. I found it very difficult (I'm not 100% sure I understand it still), but okay. Here I'm trying to phrase it in a correct and understandable way for my rules document. Can anybody (including Donald) help me with a better phrasing?

First, the old rule:

When there are several abilities at the same time, first the current player resolves all their abilities, and then each player in turn does. Each player may resolve their abilities in any order.

Then the new rule:

Optional abilities are defined as those that say "you may" (currently Reactions and Urchin). All others are mandatory.
1. When there are several abilities at the same time, the current player may resolve any of their abilities in any order, but must resolve all mandatory abilities. If they have no mandatory abilities, they may pass. Then the next player in turn does the same, etc.
2. Whenever a player resolves an ability, other players who have already resolved all their mandatory abilities can resolve optional abilities, starting with the current player.

This description is no good, because it describes a recursive scenario, which is not what we want. Also, it doesn't take into account that e.g. player C could create a new mandatory ability for player B, and then (after player A gets to react) player B has to resolve their new mandatory ability.

We could describe it more like a computer program:

1. When there are several abilities at the same time, the players take turns resolving abilities, starting with the current player (the player whose game turn it is).
2. The player in turn to resolve abilities may resolve any ability or pass. However, they may not pass of they have a mandatory ability to resolve.
3. Whenever any player resolves an ability, the current player is next to resolve abilities.

This is correct, but seems impossible to understand. It's also a little misleading that it says that the players take turns; it again hints at recursion. Writing "Go to step 1" etc. would solve this problem, but would make it even more like a computer program.

I could write it over several paragraphs, with several examples, and make it understandable that way. But I'm trying to phrase it succinctly, like the old rule.

67

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Captain and Church

« on: August 14, 2019, 11:54:20 am »

Are these free? How long do I have them? I'm not sure I even have them now, I've set them as cards I "like" but they never show up.
My account shows the expiry date for the sets, but does not mention the promos...

68

Dominion General Discussion / Best phrasing? Differently named from all/any

« on: February 02, 2019, 01:40:12 pm »

In my document I have som phrases like this:

The Action you play has to be differently named from any cards you have in play.

But I'm thinking that this is wrong, and it should be "all" instead of "any". Which option is clearer, or is there another option that is better?

69

Rules Questions / Sauna and Innovation

« on: January 27, 2019, 02:26:23 pm »

Another question to bother Donald with (sorry). This is something that some of us have mused about before, but it never mattered until now. Champion, Merchant and Sauna say "when you play x". But when do you do it, before or after you resolve the played card?

The one situation I can think of is: Play Sauna; then play Silver, trashing a Catacombs, gaining a Black Market/Storyteller, playing it via Innovation. Now it matters if the Silver has been resolved or not. (Edit: Also the number of Actions you get from playing Champion, which matters for Diadem.)

We have some groups of...things:

1) Reactions like Moat, plus Urchin - "when you play x, first"
2) Champion, Merchant and Sauna - "when you play x"
3) Adventures tokens - "when you play x, first"

(Excluded here are cards that say "when you play this" (Noble Brigand, Philosopher's Stone, etc.) since that's part of resolving the play ability, not a triggered ability.)

Reactions/Urchin used to say just "when you play x", but still happened before the played card. Then Adventures came along with tokens that said "first", and later 2nd editions of Reactions/Urchin also said "first" to clarify the timing. Presumably Champion, Merchant and Sauna never got this wording because it didn't matter.

Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage and Citadel indicate that they happen after the played card. But Champion, Merchant and Sauna don't say either way.

So currently we have some things that say "first" and others that don't. This is the same situation as after Adventures came out, and of course Reactions/Urchin nevertheless happened before the played card. Going by this, it would seem that Sauna should too.

On the other hand, the intuitive interpretation for most players would probably be that the Silver produces $2 before you trash a card.

70

Rules Questions / Road Network and timing

« on: January 23, 2019, 07:48:30 pm »

If Alice gains a Haunted Castle, and Bob has bought Road Network, who chooses the order to resolve the two when-gain abilities? As far as I can understand from previous rulings, it's Alice who chooses.



The ruling I'm referring to is that optional abilities (currently this only includes Reactions) are resolved by the player making the choice. Other abilities are resolved by the player who triggered it. (Who resolves the abilities matters for determining the order to resolve them.)

This is why Reactions are resolved by the players who choose to use them, even when it's to an Attack played by another player.

So If Alice plays a Swamp Hag, and Bob buys a card, Bob triggered the Swamp Hag's when-buy ability, and since it's not optional for Alice, it's Bob who resolves it. This means that he gets to order it with other when-buy abilities.

Here it's Alice who triggers the abilites, by gaining the Haunted Castle. It's clear that Haunted Castle is resolved by Alice. The less clear one is Road Network. But since it's not an optional ability for Bob, it should be Alice who resolves it.

71

Rules Questions / List of interactions that trigger in the "trigger window"

« on: January 21, 2019, 05:42:01 pm »

This is not really a rules question, so I wasn't sure if this was the right place, but I thought it might fit better here.

Which interactions do we know of where we are in a "trigger window" of resolving when-x abilities, and this makes another when-x ability trigger?

• Classic example: Attack is played, react with Secret Chamber or Diplomat, draw another Reaction-to-Attack card.

Others:

• Kinda the same: Attack is played, react with Caravan Guard, draw another Reaction-to-Attack card.

• Trash a Cultist/Rats/Overgrown Estate, we are in when-trash window: Discard Market Square, draw cards, drawing another (or same) Market Square.

• Start-of-turn window: Play a card (via Ghost/Innovation/Piazza/Prince/Summon). If it's a Reserve card like Ratcatcher, can call it now. If it's Hireling, Prince, Fool gaining Lost in the Woods, or Treasurer gaining Key, the start-of-turn ability starts now.

• Gain a Duplicate, we are in when-gain window. Play it via Innovation, it can now be called to gain a copy of itself. (Or gain Vassal, play it, it plays Duplicate, call Duplicate to gain another Vassal.)

• Buy a card, we are in when-buy window: Gain another card (via Charm, Haggler etc) and play it via Innovation. If the played card is Goons, Haggler, Hoard*, Merchant Guild or Talisman*, it now triggers based on the buy.
*played via Black Market or Storyteller.

• Inherit Groundskeeper. Gain an Inherited Estate, we are in when-gain window. Play it via Innovation, it now triggers based on the gain. (Or Inherit Vassal, gain & play it, it plays Groundskeeper.)

Can anybody think of other interactions?

72

Dominion General Discussion / Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?

« on: January 20, 2019, 09:31:57 pm »

Just asking for some help identifying cards. Which cards let you choose to gain a card that you can't gain?

I'm not talking about Torturer when there are no Curses left. I mean cards that give you a choice of cards.

So far I have identified:

Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.
Pilgrimage - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.
Changeling - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.

Are there any others?

73

Rules Questions / Cards entering and leaving play (Innovation)

« on: January 16, 2019, 01:08:06 pm »

Sorry, another complicated question about triggering and resolving. At least it doesn't involve Band of Misfits or Inheritance.

I'm wondering if I'm understanding this correctly.

1) I have Innovation and Capitalism. With Haggler in play, buy Mint. When-buys for Haggler and Mint trigger.
Haggler: Gain&play Merchant Guild (cost-reduced).
When-buy for Merchant Guild triggers (for buying Mint).
Mint: Trash Treasures, including Merchant Guild.
Merchant Guild: +1 Coffers.
(The Merchant Guild was not in play originally, and not in play when I resolve it, but it triggered.)

2) I have Innovation. With Haggler in play, buy Lab. When-buy for Haggler triggers.
Haggler: Gain&play Procession, playing Merchant Guild from hand (trashing the Merchant Guild).
When-buy for Merchant Guild doesn't trigger (for buying Lab), since it's not in play anymore.

The difference is that in (2), the Merchant Guild is not in play after we have resolved a when-play ability and we're checking for more.

I'm not sure if this is how it's intended to work, but this is my assumption.

74

Rules Questions / Groundskeeper, Inheritance and Innovation

« on: January 11, 2019, 03:27:07 pm »

I have Inherited Groundskeeper, and I have bought Innovation.
I gain an Estate, playing it via Innovation on when-gain. The Estate ("Groundskeeper") is now in play, and I'm still resolving when-gains for gaining the Estate. Does the Groundskeeper when-gain trigger now, giving me 1 VP token? If it said, "when you gain a Victory card, if this is in play," there would be no question that it's "yes". But as it is I'm not sure. ...But I guess it should still work?

75

Rules Questions / Hands of non-Fleet players

« on: January 09, 2019, 09:33:28 pm »

During the Fleet turn, do the non-Fleet players keep the hands they drew in their last Clean-up? This matter for Moating etc.