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51

Rules Questions / Re: Sorcerer attack with empty deck

« on: May 24, 2022, 09:49:53 am »

I have no idea why Giant is in the conversation. Sorcerer doesn't have an "otherwise," that sure seems important.

Because if we turn Giant around (as in my first post), it gets a negative conditional, like Sorcerer. Of course, if we then disagree about what turned-around Giant would actually do (like me and Gendo), we're not necessarily getting anywhere anyway.

I'm not seeing why turning Giant around has any hope of doing anything useful. The solution to awful hypothetical wordings is to fix the wording, not analyze them.

I don't feel any desire in participating in this conversation, but I will mention that anyone arguing that Sorcerer should match Gladiator, has conveniently forgotten that Bounty Hunter doesn't match either of them.

I don't understand why any of those two cards are relevant?

-If you reveal nothing with Gladiator, you get +$1.
-If you trash nothing with Remodel, you don't gain a card.
-If you exile nothing with Bounty Hunter, you don't get +$3.
-If you reveal nothing with Sorceress, you won't give out a Curse.
-If another player reveals nothing with Sorcerer, what happens?

Notice that Gladiator is the oddball. What's the difference? The other player revealing a copy is optional. It's just that they can't reveal a copy of "nothing," so they automatically fail the minigame.

Meanwhile Remodel, Sorceress and Bounty Hunter are mandatory (you can't decline to trash/exile, and you can't decline to play the guessing game), and if those cards fail to find a card they fail to do anything. Sorcerer is mandatory (they can't decline to reveal a card), which seems to match with Bounty Hunter and Sorceress instead of Gladiator.

If you really wanted to apply this to Giant, then sure you could argue that Remodel/Gladiator/Bounty Hunter/Sorceress/Sorcerer also say "otherwise, do nothing" (and they're not written on the card to avoid confusing regular humans). If those cards fail to find a card, you do the "otherwise" instead, which usually is "do nothing," but if it's Giant, then you give out a Curse.

52

Rules Questions / Re: Sorcerer attack with empty deck

« on: May 24, 2022, 02:09:16 am »

I don't feel any desire in participating in this conversation, but I will mention that anyone arguing that Sorcerer should match Gladiator, has conveniently forgotten that Bounty Hunter doesn't match either of them.

I have no idea why Giant is in the conversation. Sorcerer doesn't have an "otherwise," that sure seems important. Different card wordings mean that different cards work differently. And no I'm not saying "we don't need consistent rulings;" I'm saying, you should only apply the rulings from one card to another card, if they have similar wordings. (What does Barbarian do to an empty deck? Well Giant has a similar wording  and the ruling is you follow the "otherwise", so Barbarian means you should also follow the "otherwise", hooray.) Applying them to much different wordings is a pointless exercise.

I am not sympathetic to any complaints about Sorcerer's wording. Complain about how pathetic it is instead. Sorcerer is easily the weakest Wizard (considering that the other 3 are pretty good, this doesn't mean much, but still), and it's in the running for weakest card in the expansion.

53

Rules Questions / Re: Blockade

« on: May 16, 2022, 04:28:01 am »

If you Blockade a Curse, then yes you can potentially give out the entire Curse pile. It doesn't sound very scary in practice. For one, they can skip gaining anything you Blockaded, and you can only Blockade $4's. And unlike Swamp Hag, doing this lowers Curses, so it's not going to stalemate.

54

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Seaside 2E Preview 1

« on: May 16, 2022, 03:27:32 am »

With the help of Discord DomBot, here are the official rulebook entries for the cards, plus some other rulings:

Astrolabe:
• This gives you +1 Buy and +$1 on the turn you play it, and +1 Buy and +$1 on your next turn too.

Blockade:
• The gained card comes from the Supply and is set aside; put it on the Blockade to remember which card goes with Blockade.
• If the gained card somehow doesn't end up set aside (for example if you trash it with Watchtower from Prosperity), nothing further happens; if the card is set aside, then you put it into your hand on your next turn, and until then, when other players gain the card on their own turns, they also gain a Curse.

Unlike Summon, the card is directly gained to set aside land. So if you gain a Nomad Camp or Ghost Town, you didn't gain it to your discard pile, so their abilities don't trigger. If the card is no longer set aside (like in the Watchtower example), Blockade doesn't stay in play for next turn. Like all Duration attacks, you have to reveal your Moat as soon as it's played.

Monkey:
• This includes cards that the player gains on other players' turns, such as a Curse they gain on your turn via Witch.

When they gain the card, they resolve all their on-gain effects before you resolve Monkey (which could matter vs Skirmisher). If you draw a reaction that could respond to the card they gained (such as Falconer), you can use it.

55

Dominion General Discussion / Prosperity 2E

« on: May 04, 2022, 10:00:05 pm »

After 2021 had no new Dominion content, I guess it makes sense that 2022 would pick up the pace. Hey VP token cards were tried out in Allies, this really shouldn't be that shocking.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/362517/dominion-prosperity-second-edition
(The front cover's also cute: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/6849008/dominion-prosperity-second-edition)

"Dominion: Prosperity (Second Edition) contains nine new types of Kingdom cards, which will be released on their own as an update pack for those who own the first edition of this expansion. A few cards will receive minor errata, but these will not appear in the update pack."

What's getting kicked out for the 9 cards? Well I can tell you that unlike Seaside 1E, Prosperity 1E doesn't have 11 blanks in it. I also predict that everyone will complain that card X got removed and card Y survived, but that's to be expected.

56

Rules Questions / Re: Inn and Gatekeeper

« on: May 03, 2022, 09:05:37 pm »

(1) My opponent has played Gatekeeper.
I have an Inn in discard. I gain another.

(a)  I reveal it and shuffle my deck. Nothing will happen.
(b)  I reveal that Inn, shuffle my deck, and Exile what I've gained.

Are both correct?

I assume A is referring to the Inn you gained, and B is referring to the Inn that was originally in your discard pile. If so, then they're both correct.

(c)  I play a Sheepdog as Vassal (using Way), play a discarded Scavenger, and topdeck a Copper. (He doesn't know.) Can I deny Exiling? (Has he lost track?)

Ugh, Way of the Mouse is so annoying to think about.

I think the ruling would be that Gatekeeper (somehow) knows that the Inn you gained didn't get moved by Scavenger, so it can exile it.

57

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: April 21, 2022, 12:25:43 am »

Are you prepared to deal with all the "I liked that card, why did you remove it" comments once Seaside 2E previews begin?
 
What are your thoughts on Tomb? I'm surprised that some people love it because it encourages trashing, and some people hate it...because it encourages trashing. (The actual problem with Tomb is Fortress, and well you already knew that I would think that.)

What was the motivation to finally errata Prince? And is it going to get the Command type?

What are your favorite cards from Allies?

How concerning was it to let Voyage be cumulative, in terms of power, slowness, and intuition (a LOT of people thought Voyage worked like Outpost; I think I would have added something about it in the rulebook)?

Were there thoughts to move +1 Favor before +1 Card on Underling, to get rid of the rules question with Order of Astrologers/Masons? Probably not because Emissary couldn't get that kind of fix?

Were there concerns that Skirmisher and Highwayman could continually prevent opponents from hitting 5, which would prevent them from attacking back? I mean, Raider got bumped to 6 for that reason.

58

Rules Questions / Looking/Revealing & Stop-moving

« on: April 06, 2022, 11:49:11 pm »

Here are some of my observations from a while back, when messing around on the online version. The premise is, if revealing/looking at cards from your deck counts as moving them off your deck...how far does that go? And also remembering from Jeebus' doc about how Armory/Blessed Village/Sun/Gatekeeper works.

Scenario 1: Armory a Fool's Gold, react with Falconer, gain and City-state a Sentinel, and topdeck FG. Gatekeeper can't exile FG.

Scenario 2: Same as scenario 1, except you City-state a Chameleon-Oracle, and topdeck the 2 cards you reveal. GK can't exile FG (even though you leave it on your deck and don't draw it).

Scenario 3: Same as scenario 1, except your deck and discard are both empty (so FG is the only card that Sentinel looks at). GK still doesn't exile FG, even though you topdecked it.

Scenario 4: Same as scenario 1, except you City-state Chameleon-Patrician instead. GK still doesn't exile FG, even though you topdecked it.

Scenario 5: Same as scenario 1, except you City-state Duchess instead. GK still doesn't exile FG, even though you topdecked it.

Scenario 6: You Falconer a FG, and react with a 2nd Falconer to City-state a Menagerie, revealing the FG. FG finally get exiled.

Obviously you can do these following scenarios with other cards; they don't all have to be Falconer and Gatekeeper. I'm only using those cards because A) Falconer is my favorite card in the game, and B) it's fun to make Gatekeeper lose track.

So I think there are 3 rulings we can go from here:
1. Revealing/looking at a card will always cards to lose track (in which case only scenario 6 is a bug).
2. Revealing/looking at a card from your deck will always cause cards to lose track (so all those scenarios are correct).
3. Scenario 1 and 2 causes cards to lose track because you're covering up the gained card with another card from your deck; in scenario 3, 4, 5, and 6, that doesn't happen, meaning 3, 4, and 5 are bugs.

I think the 2nd ruling would be the best one. I guess the 1st ruling is ok, but it wouldn't be that intuitive. The 3rd ruling makes sense as an extrapolation, but it opens a can of worms, and why would we do that.

One issue is: "Look at" means the order you return the cards is hidden. Surely Gatekeeper can't do anything about that. But with reveal, you can't hide that order (the Hinterlands rulebook is wrong about this, but meh).

Suppose you play a Rabble, and I reveal Copper, Estate, Duchy.
Do you get to know if I put the Estate or the Duchy on top?

Yes. They were revealed, and nothing ever said to conceal them. That would also apply to e.g. Oracle.

In practice no-one would show you irl, but there would have to be a general rule to fix that, and it would be a weird general rule. The card itself sure doesn't want to say, "then conceals them, then returns them in any order they choose."

So in the Oracle example, if you put the FG 2nd on the top (which everyone knows about), it seems pretty clear that GK can't exile it. But what if you put it 1st on the top? It didn't get covered up, so can GK still find it?

Anyways, if we went with the 2nd ruling, we wouldn't need to answer these questions. And it also means Stef doesn't need to change anything. So I'm putting my vote on that.

tldr: Gatekeeper sucks at her job.

59

Rules Questions / Re: Garrison without tokens

« on: April 06, 2022, 07:34:56 pm »

Possibly the rule about Durations staying out when they have something left to do could be changed so that it's only about future turns. (Or maybe Donald has decided to change it already?) Then the card would be discarded in all these situations (Garrison, Seal, Squirrel). But then, with Garrison and with Seal, we would have situations where a Duration is discarded even though it still does something (via Donate), which might not be desirable?

Changing the rule to "durations only stay out if they know they'll do stuff on future turns" seems reasonable to me, and doesn't sound like a confusing change. And it answers the Squirrel question, hooray.

Edit: Actually, maybe "durations only stay out if they know they'll have stuff to do after this turn ends" is a better wording, to deal with Outpost (Outpost stays in play for the in-between-turns decision of which extra turn to take, but it doesn't actually do anything on that extra turn).

If Garrison isn't in play, you can't put any tokens on it, and it won't draw any cards. So if you discard it from play, then gain a card, there won't be any tracking issues there.

Sure Seal and Cargo Ship will still have memory issues with Donate, but it seems pretty easy to suck-up; it's a pretty rare scenario (it turns out, most of the time you're using Donate to trash starting cards, not Catacombs). And Cargo Ship technically still has some tracking, since the gained card is still set aside for you to remember.

To me the bigger problem are Durations/Thrones getting removed from play before Clean-up (hooray Procession got errata'ed in 2019, even though it'll need more in order for me to unban it). Fortunately a lot of the current ways to remove Durations (such as Counterfeit and Bonfire) will get non-Duration errata sometime soon (mostly because Contract now exists).

60

Rules Questions / Re: Donate and Baths at end of turn

« on: April 02, 2022, 12:05:47 pm »

You can get VP from Baths even if you gain a card from Donate.

I guess the weird thing about Baths is that "when you end your turn without having gained card" ≠ "at the end of your turn, if you didn't gain a card this turn." So if you buy Donate and end your turn without gaining a card, then trash a Catacombs, then resolve Baths, you'd still get 2VP. Idk why anyone would order Baths after Donate though, so this is not a very relevant edge case.

It's relevant because if Baths actually checks after your turn is over, you cannot get 2 VP if you trash Catacombs.

But how do you know how it's supposed to work?

I'm just going off of this, when DXV said that Baths is timed at the same time as other end-of-turn effects like Save: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16860.msg674518#msg674518. Ok yes they say "tentatively," and the Outpost/Mountain Pass thing is wrong (even before the MP errata), but there are no other posts in that thread, so what else are we going off of. Even without DXV's post, any reading that suggests Baths checks your turn after Donating is bizarre to me.

And I know the online version is susceptible to bugs and stuff, but Baths already auto-resolves before Donate.

61

Rules Questions / Re: Donate and Baths at end of turn

« on: April 02, 2022, 11:43:05 am »

You can get VP from Baths even if you gain a card from Donate.

I guess the weird thing about Baths is that "when you end your turn without having gained card" ≠ "at the end of your turn, if you didn't gain a card this turn." So if you buy Donate and end your turn without gaining a card, then trash a Catacombs, then resolve Baths, you'd still get 2VP. Idk why anyone would order Baths after Donate though, so this is not a very relevant edge case.

62

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: March 11, 2022, 03:24:35 pm »

Do you think it'll be a problem that an expansion called Allies has a mechanic called Allies?

Was there a reason why only Battle Plan lets you rotate any pile? Was that ability tried out on other rotators? 

How much of the Allies split piles were designed bottom-up / top-down? Probably almost all bottom-up, since it's Dominion?

Did the ever-decreasing name space let you feel free to name a card Courier, when there's already Courtier?

How concerning was Importer's setup? Sometimes it's totally fine, and even interesting (like with Desert Guides), and other times it feels completely dominating in the open (like with City-state).

Was Contract considered as a non-terminal Action-Duration?

Why does Specialist also let you play Treasures? Did it compare unfavorably with other Throne Rooms?

Do you wish that Dominion was a better fit for having cards that continuously beat up players (like Gang of Pickpockets)? I know a lot of these effects were tried out in the past, and it's a bit sad that they're so difficult, since Pickpockets is awesome.

63

Dominion General Discussion / Allies is online

« on: March 09, 2022, 03:39:23 am »

All the Allies cards are up on dominion.games! The rulebook will come out uh soon. Anyways, here are all the new cards:

Kingdom cards

Sycophant
$2; Action-Liaison
+1 Action
Discard 3 cards. If you discarded at least one, +$3.
-------
When you gain or trash this, +2 Favors.

Sentinel
$3; Action
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. You may trash up to 2 of them. Put the rest back in any order.

Carpenter
$4; Action
If no Supply piles are empty, +1 Action and gain a card costing up to $4. Otherwise, trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

Innkeeper
$4; Action
+1 Action
Choose one: +1 Card; or +3 Cards, then discard 3 cards; or +5 Cards, then discard 6 cards.

Barbarian
$5; Action-Attack
+$2
Each other player trashes the top card of their deck. If it costs $3 or more they gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it; otherwise they gain a Curse.

Capital City
$5; Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may discard 2 cards for +$2. You may pay $2 for +2 Cards.

Contract
$5; Treasure-Duration-Liaison
+$2
+1 Favor
You may set aside an Action from your hand to play it at the start of your next turn.

Emissary
$5; Action-Liaison
+3 Cards
If this made you shuffle (at least one card), +1 Action and +2 Favors.

Galleria
$5; Action
+$3
This turn, when you gain a card costing $3 or $4; +1 Buy.

Guildmaster
$5; Action-Liaison
+$3
This turn, when you gain a card, +1 Favor.

Specialist
$5; Action
You may play an Action or Treasure from your hand. Choose one: play it again; or gain a copy of it.

Marquis
$6; Action
+1 Buy
+1 Card per card in your hand. Discard down to 10 cards in hand.

Split piles

Clashes

Battle Plan
$3; Action-Clash
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may reveal an Attack card from your hand for +1 Card. You may rotate any Supply pile.

Archer
$4; Action-Attack-Clash
+$2
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals all but one, and discards one of those you choose.

Warlord
$5; Action-Duration-Attack-Clash
+1 Action
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards. Until then, other players can't play an Action from their hand that they have 2 or more copies of in play.

Territory
$6; Victory-Clash
Worth 1VP per differently named Victory card you have.
-------
When you gain this, gain a Gold per empty Supply pile.

Forts

Tent
$3; Action-Fort
+$2
You may rotate the Forts.
-------
When you discard this from play, you may put it onto your deck.

Garrison
$4; Action-Duration-Fort
This turn, when you gain a card, add a token here. At the start of your next turn, remove them for +1 Card each.

Hill Fort
$5; Action-Fort
Gain a card costing up to $4. Choose one: put it into your hand; or +1 Card and +1 Action.

Stronghold
$6; Action-Duration-Victory-Fort
Choose one: +$3; or at the start of your next turn, +3 Cards.
-------
2VP

Allies

Circle of Witches
Ally
After you play a Liaison, you may spend 3 Favors to have each other player gain a Curse.

Desert Guides
Ally
At the start of your turn, you may spend a Favor to discard your hand and draw 5 cards. Repeat as desired.

Fellowship of Scribes
Ally
After playing an Action, if you have 4 or fewer cards in hand, you may spend a Favor for +1 Card.

Forest Dwellers
Ally
At the start of your turn, you may spend a Favor to look at the top 3 cards of your deck, discard any number and put the rest back in any order.

League of Shopkeepers
Ally
After you play a Liaison, if you have 5 or more Favors, +$1, and if you have 10 or more, +1 Action and +1 Buy.

Market Towns
Ally
At the start of your Buy phase, you may spend a Favor to play an Action card from your hand. Repeat as desired.

Mountain Folk
Ally
At the start of your turn, you may spend 5 Favors for +3 Cards.

Order of Astrologers
Ally
When shuffling, you may pick one card per Favor you spend to go on top.

Trappers' Lodge
Ally
When you gain a card, you may spend a Favor to put it onto your deck.

Woodworkers' Guild
At the start of your Buy phase, you may spend a Favor to trash an Action card from your hand. If you did, gain an Action card.

64

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: March 06, 2022, 06:08:51 pm »

Do you still like Exorcist being a Night card? I guess Ghost already makes you have to learn what Night means, but I think Exorcist as a non-terminal Action would be totally fine.

What's your retrospective on Night cards? I'm surprised that a decent amount of people hated them (or maybe that hate is grouped with the Boon/Hex hate).

Do you still like Tournament and its Prizes after all these years?

What are your thoughts on Talisman? You've said before that it wanted to be better (with e.g. VP cards), but honestly I think it's too strong and annoying when it's good.

Why does Merchant Guild now care about cards gained? I know (and agree) that when-buy effects are bad, but counting the number of cards bought in a turn seems fine? Or is it about how regular people may not understand that buying an Event/Project isn't the same as buying a card?

Why does Reap copy Summon's wording, when it's confusing with stop-moving? I feel like you successfully fixed the concept with Demand, but then Reap still came out.
 
I won't ask too many questions about Allies cards (I'll wait until after the secret history), but will Catacombs get errata to get rid of the pointless and confusing interaction with Elder?

65

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One

« on: March 02, 2022, 07:13:04 am »

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

I thought that would be the case. Dominion online is not always correct in its implementation though, so it's not official until Donald says so.

I can tell you that Donald X. playtested the online version before previews week. Hopefully that's not a surprise.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

Stop-moving would apply if Elder made you follow the Catacombs instruction an extra time after you followed it the first time. See what I wrote above.

I guess you're asking, when does Elder's ability apply? If so then it's your second interpretation: you make the choices all at once, and then you do them in the written order.

66

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One

« on: March 02, 2022, 06:45:15 am »

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

This is also implied through Donald X.'s preview text; if Elder applied to literally all abilities, then what does this sentence mean?

If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board.

So Elder doesn't affect Barge, Jester, Border Guard, or even Duchess. It's only for cards like Pawn, Count, Amulet (for one turn), and Town Crier.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.
-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

67

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: February 16, 2022, 08:22:42 pm »

So with Seaside 2nd E. on the rise, does that mean all the original Dominions will get a 2nd Edition?
And if, do they follow the actual order? In that case Alchemy would be next, what I´d pretty much like to see happen.

Alchemy 2E has basically no hope. And an Alchemy sequel is about as likely as a return to Kamigawa, oh wait that example doesn't work anymore. Uh it's about as likely as a new expansion with Hexes.

I guess Prosperity, Dark Ages, and Guilds/Cornucopia have enough cards to cut, but I bet those would be years off.

The problem with Hinterlands is that many of the cards just want tweaks (like giving +Buy to Cache), and that's not a good fit for a 2E. Maybe one day it'll happen, but it's pretty unlikely. Of course there are some cards that can't be fixed with simple tweaks, like Oracle. (If Donald X. doesn't even play with a card anymore, you can bet that it's dead.)

The obv. next question is, would base set or Intrigue ever need a 3rd edition. Hey if you squint hard enough, there are a lot of potential candidates to cut from the base set (Harbinger, Merchant, Bureaucrat, Council Room, Mine, Sentry, Witch) and Intrigue (Baron, Harem, Trading Post, Minion, Mining Village). But I'm not holding my breath for any 3Es.

68

Rules Questions / Re: Coffers Rules Change

« on: February 07, 2022, 10:49:07 am »

Stef has been working on a big update for the online version for a while, and it will come out a couple weeks before Allies previews (week of Feb 28). It also includes all the new rules errata (such as the rules for playing cards, using coffers, and the new ruling for Star Chart). You can test it out here: https://dev.dominion.games/

Anyways, I can now give you the official wordings on *some* of the errata'd cards (not all of them; Hermit hasn't changed yet). I'm not going to cover the ones previously announced; if you need a refresher on Donate etc., go here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20551.msg856350#msg856350.

Merchant Guild (Action):
+1 Buy
+$1
At the end of your Buy phase this turn, +1 Coffers per card you gained in it.

Note that there's no dividing line, and Merchant Guil cares about gaining, not buying.

Patron (Action):
+1 Villager
+$2
(dividing line)
When something causes you to reveal this in an Action phase (using the word "reveal"), +1 Coffers.

Citadel (Project):
The first time you play an Action card during each of your turns, replay it afterwards.

Prince (Action-Duration)
You may set aside (on this) a non-Duration Action card from your hand costing up to $4. At the start of each of your turns, play that card, leaving it set aside.

Surprise, Prince is getting the 2019 errata treatment. Note that it doesn't have the Command type, because that type only exists to avoid infinite loops. Also Prince is a now a permanent duration, like Hireling.

69

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Sleigh cycle bug?

« on: February 06, 2022, 01:01:25 am »

Yes this is a bug.

How it's supposed to work is, when you gain Sleigh A, you can discard Sleigh B to put Sleigh A into your hand. When you do, Sleigh A loses track of itself (and any other Sleighs in your hand also lose track). Now you can use Sleigh A's reaction, but then there's no way to get it back into your hand, so there won't be an infinite loop.

70

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: February 01, 2022, 05:15:00 pm »

Is it possible that we are gonna get more reserve cards in the future? They are my favorite type of card

Can I re-ask this question but with a broader scope, are there mechanics that you’ve done in previous expansions that have been iconic of that expansion that you’d like to revisit? I liked reserve, travellers were interesting, projects, landmarks and ways are super interesting, are there mechanics that you would revisit for future cards? And are there any you vow never to do again?

Not happening:
- Potions - There are always people who speak up to say how they want more, but mostly people didn't like them, and they don't do anything essential for me.
- Hexes - They are just asking too much, horrendously slowing down games with casual players.

Unlikely:
- Ruins - You need to include 50 cards to handle 6 players. That's a lot to ask of an expansion.
- Heirlooms - Naturally there can only be 7. Of course I could add a rule for "what if there are 8 of these" in order to do more.
- Boons - I think they were worth doing but I should have only done say 5 cards with them. They weren't received well enough to want to try to find more to do with them.
- Artifacts - They sound fine, but it was work to get 5 I could live with.

The space for possible new Events, Projects, and Landmarks is not impressive. However any new expansion could also have some other new thing that adds some space, e.g. if Renaissance had had Events there could have been ones that involved the tokens or an Artifact.

Overpay is unlikely except that I could do like one overpay card somewhere. It sets you up to have a way-too-wordy card, but if the top can be vanilla then it could be okay.

A lot of the set mechanics can just appear in any set on a few cards, and have: victory cards that do things, choose ones, durations, $7's, treasures that do things, care about variety or provide it, when-gain, when-trash, care about the trash, split piles. Then there are mechanics that require tokens or extra cards or mats, which will only appear as larger hunks of a set. And well then there's Night, I would want to have a bunch of that in order to include rules for it.

I would probably put Travellers as unlikely, since they take up a lot of space, are complex, and are difficult to balance. And Shelters too. I would also expect very recent mechanics (like coffers) to not return for a while.

My personal vote for returning mechanics are Spoils and Journey token. Those mechanics only have 3 cards each, and if VP tokens had more life to them than Monument, Bishop, and Goons, why not Spoils/Journey.

71

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn

« on: January 01, 2022, 12:47:25 pm »

I don't know why you're using posts from February when all of my quotes were from April. Surely you would use the most up-to-date source?

Also discord is perfectly fine for people asking quick questions (which is most of the time). For full-on rules discussions with tricky answers (like this), yes it's probably better to have them here. The problem is how to ask a bunch of people to come to the forum just for occasional things like this.

72

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn

« on: December 31, 2021, 10:04:44 am »

At this point I think the only hope you have for changing the Livery ruling is to bring up an edge case that discord hasn’t thought of, that would cause the ruling to fall apart. We didn’t catch the Citadel Captain thing, so maybe there’s something there. Otherwise, we’re just beating a dead horse and making no progress, and I’d like to do other things.

73

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn

« on: December 31, 2021, 12:51:59 am »

Here's my explanation. I don't know if it'll help anyone understand things better, but maybe.

It may help to imagine that Duplicate and Sheepdog have an implicit "while they're in a certain zone" in their text, because how else are you using that ability. So these two technically have the following text:

Sheepdog:
+2 Cards
While this is in your hand, when you gain a card, you may play this from your hand.

Duplicate:
Put this on your Tavern mat.
While this is on your Tavern mat, when you gain a card costing 6 or more, you may call this, to gain a copy of that card.

These cards basically work the same way as Groundskeeper and friends. The only requirements are A) they're in a certain zone, and B) you gained a card. (Ok Groundskeeper and Duplicate has other requirements for the gained card but whatever.) So if you gain a Duplicate and Innovate it, both conditions are met, so you can call it.

Livery has a different requirement though. Instead of being in a certain zone, the card needs to be gained after the ability has resolved. Is that clear from the wording? I dunno, that's subjective. No casual player is coming across these Innovation edge cases anytime soon. Anyways it's what Donald X. has ruled. So if you Innovate a Livery, it fails the condition and doesn't gain anything.

Oh yeah there's another case: playing Hireling at the start of your turn. It has "for the rest of the game." So why does that work, and Livery doesn't?

"For the rest of the game, at the start of each of your turns" matches Livery, in terms of this "What's the scope of this" issue. A difference though is that "the start of a turn" is less like a thing that happened that could have been missed; it's this time period when stuff happens, more like a start of turn phase, even though it's not phrased like that and I mean isn't that.

Alright that's basically the summary of this discord conversation in April (including the new Merchant ruling). I think there was another edge case involving Way of the Mouse but man screw that card, you will not drag me into that conversation.

74

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn

« on: December 30, 2021, 06:53:50 pm »

Gain a Livery - you are in the when-gain window for the Livery. Are there any when-gain triggers? Yes, Innovation lets you play the Livery. Now, are there other when-gain triggers for the Livery gain? Yes, Livery lets you gain a Horse when you gain a card costing $4 or more, so it triggers.
(This doesn't work on dominion.games, which I happened to notice a couple of weeks ago and posted about in their forum.)

It's true that this doesn't work on dominion.games. By coincidence, that's the official Donald X ruling: Livery cannot see gains before it was played. (If you're not on discord, you're just going to have to trust me on this one.)

You should not get a horse from "gain Livery, Innovate to play it."

When this came up before, after whatever discussion where I bet I listened to what people argued, I concluded that Livery is different because of the "this turn" phrasing. It functions for the rest of the turn, starting then. It looks for gains, and its gain happened already.

Oh while you're updating rulings, here's another.

I mean when does Merchant happen? It happens when you play a Silver. What's its scope? The rest of this turn.

So if playing a Silver triggers Merchant showing up, it didn't get its rule in in time and so no +$1. (and not later in the turn either, which should already be true if you just play a Silver to Storyteller and then play a Merchant)

75

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn

« on: December 28, 2021, 06:05:47 pm »

You can generate this scenario another way. Gain a Livery, play it with Innovation. You don’t get a Horse. Livery says “this turn,” which means “cards gained from now on,” and it can’t see any cards gained previously (including itself).

Using Innovation on Duplicate allows you to call Duplicate. That’s an exercise for the reader. Hint: Duplicate has an implicit “while this is on your Tavern mat,” because it’s a requirement to call it.

Sheepdog works differently because it’s in your hand and doesn’t have a scope like Livery or Seal.