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Messages - SwitchedFromStarcraft

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2301
This is me mentioning that some substantial fraction of poker hands are not even skill-testing at all, but just "fold now".  Presumably the marginal winner does not have an edge over a marginal loser in all of these "auto-lose" hands.  100k hands does not equate to 100k flips of a slightly-biased coin.

But as Piemaster and I can both tell you, professionals make a lot of money off folks that can't (or won't) fold those "fold now" hands.  The discipline to dump trash immediately is a different sort of skill and so those hands are, in some sense of the word, skill tested.

2302
(I am 6 for 13 lifetime with four of a kind)
I'm going to need to see some poker tracker evidence for this claim.

In my case, "lifetime" covers 30 years of playing, and therefore pre-dates a lot of things such as internet play, data mining software, WSOP main event fields the size of community colleges, etc.  I recognize that anyone can say anything online these days, but I assure you that the stat is accurate, though limited to "flop" games (Holdem, Omaha, Omaha split) where I flopped 4-of-a kind.

As other posters have asserted, we can debate whether I used the information appropriately in my decision to give up the game (which I dearly loved), but to me it was a pretty clear signal (one of many) that things were not going to break my way as often as the mathematics of probability would suggest.

My apologies to the OP for bringing up a topic that has apparently hijacked the thread.  My intent in the use of this (context-limited) statistic was to illustrate, in microcosm, why I am acutely familiar with the frustration that accompanies a turn of "bad luck", whether it lasts one shuffle, two games, or 30 years.

2303
Dominion Isotropic / Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« on: January 10, 2012, 12:54:34 pm »
and then he used fowl language at me.

Sounds like he was being a real turkey.

Yeah, it was awful... He was like "Cluck you, you clucking little cluckster, your mom is nothing but a gobble, you gobblecluckster" I was really offended.

Sounds really hawkward.
That's what this list is for isn't it? Just duck the next time you get matched up with him.

The puns on this thread are really quite fowl.  Blacklisting is for the birds.
Some of the puns are indeed kite egretable.  As for blacklisting: the idea stands in stork contrast to my view of this community as relatively eagle-i-tarian (and snipe-free).  Better that we grouse in general terns on these boards about our infrequent exposure to the bustards of the Dominion world than blacklist, and thereby pour petrel on the potential flames. After my recent (and only) observation of profanity from another player in a game, I considered adding a swift post to the "decline in civility" thread, so that I wouldn't feel quite so bittern about the experience.

2304
As a former professional poker player... I quit playing when I realized that I had quantifiable evidence of how bad my luck truly was (I am 6 for 13 lifetime with four of a kind). 
As a current professional poker player, I will say that's an extremely strange thing for someone who has ever played poker at a high level to say.
I completely agree, though we may define "high level" in various ways.  But first and foremost I'm a scientist, and I reached the point where I had collected an overwhelming amount of data (not just the example I gave) suggesting that I would not be able to fade the luck factor over the long haul.  The other alternative was to conclude that the laws of probability didn't apply to me, and that's just silly.

2305
I think certainly it can be more infuriating in poker, but that is likely because of the cultural attachment that most humans have to money.  For most people, losing money is worse than losing a game of X, because the money could have been used to procure other things, whereas losing the game of X means "only" (choose your flagellation mechanism) loss of bragging rights, or an ego hit, or lack of understanding of what went "wrong" or whatever.  This is a generalization, and is not true for everyone of course.

2306
Oh, and if you're upset when you lose at Dominion, don't take up poker...ever... you'll have a heart attack in no time

This.

As a former professional poker player, I can absolutely assure you that you must take this advice to heart.  Poker is cruel in that you can play a hand perfectly and still have a bad thing happen (you lose the pot), due to luck.  Despite being good enough to make a modest living at it, I quit playing when I realized that I had quantifiable evidence of how bad my luck truly was (I am 6 for 13 lifetime with four of a kind).  It is a hard way to make an easy living.

Luck will always be a factor in Dominion.  I played 5 games IRL on Sunday, and in all 5 games my T1 and T2 buys collided on Turn 5.  It's gonna happen.  If it continues to frustrate you, you may want to read The Tao of Poker by Larry Phillips.  This is a wonderful book that applies to much more than poker (the subtitle is "285 ways to transform your game and your life"). It will help you look at things from another perspective.

I would hate to see a player of your experience (and likely your level, though I've not looked you up) become soured on such a great game, but it can happen.  Do something to look at it through a different lens.  It's not what is going on around us that matters, it's what we tell ourselves about what's going on around us.


2307
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Air travel with Dominion
« on: January 04, 2012, 03:52:53 pm »
Two options that have worked for me:

1) Rubber band cards into blocks of about 60-80, using the blank cards and mats as separators between whatever "categories" of cards your brain delineates.  Put the blocks into the lower half of a gallon ziploc, fold the ziploc over, and rubber band the blocks together from the outside of the ziplock.  This "locks" the blocks together so they dont rub.

2) Put cards into clear boxes that diving masks come in.  These are harder, and provide more protection, at the small cost of slightly extra weight, and less flexiblility as to where they fit in a piece of luggage.  See my post at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1012.msg16935#msg16935

2308
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Any obvious strategy here?
« on: January 04, 2012, 01:54:36 pm »
Thanks everybody, for the feedback.  I had registered that my banes repelled his YW attacks at a rate higher than chance alone would have suggested. This was in addition to his buying YW later than me, which also helped.

I should have been able to rule out the use of Hoard (gold+green = $ density of 1.5/card), especially in a Colony game.  Just this weekend, I was explaing treasure density values to newbies IRL. I fell prey to the "Colony game, got to have more money" idea.

I mentioned my resolution to attack more on principle, but that shouldn't overide consideration of the other cards, particularly in light of possible counters.  It was my unfamiliarity with the majority of the kingdom that made lots of cards easy to ignore. Luckily, there was little peril in this specific instance, but perhaps a higher priority principle is "examine carefully each and every card, ESPECIALLY if you rarely or never use them".

2309
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Any obvious strategy here?
« on: January 03, 2012, 05:31:09 pm »
I considered that, but the rules for that board clearly state that I shouldn't post a game where I won.  It is designed to help folks figure out where they went wrong.

2310
Dominion General Discussion / Any obvious strategy here?
« on: January 03, 2012, 05:02:10 pm »
The board was:

Farmland, Fortune Teller, Hamlet, Hoard, Lighthouse, Lookout, Philosopher's Stone, Potion, Royal Seal, Vineyard, and Young Witch ( Wishing Well♦ )

This felt like a very weird board, probably because most of the cards I've not seen a lot of, and almost never buy. It was a colony game, and I formulated no strategy at the outset.  With a 5/2 opening, I took YW on principle, because I'm trying to attack more lately.  Beyond that, I was just guessing.  The ending felt weird too - 3 piles in a colony game, and more provinces gone than colonies.

With my first $6, I bought a Hoard rather than gold, and almost every time it came up I had a Hamlet and was able to buy 2 green cards, so I had a good number of golds. Did I just stumble onto the best approach, or is there something else I should have seen?

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/03/game-20120103-131925-dbb88314.html

2311
General Discussion / Re: Dominion intrudes on real life
« on: December 08, 2011, 08:39:18 am »
Yesterday, I was writing a review of some travel, and when I got to the word island I capitalized it without even slowing down.  It seemed natural, and sort of respectful.

I played a game a few days ago where I stupidly ignored witch on a board with TR and no reaction cards.  You know what happened, and yet I just sort of moved on from the game without internalizing the magnitude of the lesson.  Then yesterday a conversation arose in which the context and subject matter somehow brought to mind Snoopy's (?) expression "Curses! Foiled again!". I had to chuckle at the new perspective.

2312
General Discussion / Re: PC/console gaming
« on: December 06, 2011, 06:50:19 pm »
I always played boardgames until just a couple of years ago (I'm 52), when my GF decided she missed videogaming, and bought a Wii.  I enjoy shooting, so I was drawn to the obvious choices, Call of Duty, etc., but quickly discovered that 1st person shooters make me motion sick.  I couldn't find any good third person shooters (ideas please!), and Zelda/Mario held no interest at all.  Then my GF bought an oldie..... Pikmin.  I finally got the whole obsession thing.  I still remember the day I stumbled across Pikmin 2 in a Gamestop, I immediately bought a bottle of champagne to celebrate.  Played it again about a month ago.

PC - The rudimentary poker games from 10 years ago, before anybody ever heard of Chris Moneymaker, et. al.  Starcraft, obviously, until Labor Day when Dominion came along.  If the size of the icons had been friendlier, I think I would enjoy Civilization.

Does anyone know of a PC (or console game) where the mechanics are Air Traffic Control.  I'd be especially interested in some sort of voice activated, near real-life simulator.

2313
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« on: December 06, 2011, 12:54:54 pm »
On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
It doesn't really matter points-wise.

Going for 3 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.
Going for 4 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.

Although I could understand the importance of denying your opponents them in which case getting 4 is better than getting 3.

Have I missed something?  If you have 4 duchies, and then buy Dukes, wouldn't it go 4-8-12 etc?

Your Duchies are worth points too.

Respectfully, I submit that Dukes are worthless without Duchies.  The card text reads: Worth 1 VP per duchy you have.  So if your have trashed your opening 3 estates, and buy a Duchy as your first "new" victory card, you have no VP.

Given that, why would you not accrue as many Duchies as possible before buying any Dukes? Here's why I would, and I'm open to counterarguments (I acknowledge that later in the game, opportunity costs come in to play, but assume the basic circumstances exist to make a Duke/Duchy strategy viable):
1) If contested for the duchies, I'll want as many as possible.
2) If duchies are uncontested, each Duke is then (obviously) more valuable
3) My opponent, having lost the race for the duchies, may decide to buy Dukes to keep them from me. This will only magnify my edge, because if he's buying Dukes, he's not buying Provinces, he's helping empty the 2nd pile, he's wasting turns/buys, he's clogging his deck, and receiving fewer (or no) VPs for the trouble. All his later turns will be limping with less money, and if he buys estates, he's helping me with a third pile ending.

I acknowledge that racing for the Dukes with fewer (or none) of the duchies is suboptimal, and may not be likely for an opponent with average or better skills, but if it does happen it would likely be because I've created the possibility. It's another example of doing whatever I can to increase the possibility of my win, even if that increase is slight.  In poker, EV x volume = profit.  That is, the Expected Value of a given play, even when small, becomes significant when multiplied by many iterations.

The math (if I've not messed up) is as follows.  The first set of 3 columns is for an all duchy procurement.  Second set of 3 columns represents the strategy of alternating duchies with dukes, beginning immediately after the firsty Duchy. Third set of columns represents getting to 4 duchies, then alternating. (Let Dy = duchy, Dk = Duke.  GC = Green Card)

Holding     VP/GC    VP/$ Spent    Holding        VP/GC               VP/$                 Holding                 VP/GC             VP/$
Dy               3            0.6
2 Dy            3            0.6          Dy, Dk        4/2=2            4/10 =  0.4                                               
3 Dy            3            0.6          2Dy, Dk       8/3=2.66       8/15 = 0.533                       
4 Dy            3            0.6          2Dy, 2Dk     10/4=2.5      10/20 = 0.5           3Dy, Dk                  12/4=3          0.6
5 Dy            3            0.6          3Dy, 2Dk     15/5=3         15/25 = 0.6           4Dy, Dk                  16/5=3.2        0.64
6 Dy            3            0.6          3Dy, 3Dk     18/6=3          18/30 = 0.6          5Dy, Dk(=4Dy,2Dk)   20/6=3.33      0.667
7 Dy            3            0.6          4Dy, 3Dk     24/7=3.43      24/35 = 0.686       5Dy, 2Dk(>4Dy,3Dk)   25/7=3.57    0.714
8 Dy            3            0.6          4Dy, 4Dk     28/8=3.5        28/40= 0.7           5Dy, 3Dk(>4Dy,4Dk)   30/8=3.75    0.857

I leave it to each of you to draw your own conclusions. (As Disraeli said, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.) As a newer player, I would appreciate some feedback on whether the value for "VP per card" can be used analogously to "average $ per card" to evaluate/describe/compare degrees of deck clogging.

Is there any decision-making use of the value for VP/$ spent?

2314
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion cards in haiku
« on: December 05, 2011, 09:01:03 pm »
Militia
You always get coins
They disembowel their hand
Huge satisfaction

2315
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which games count towards ratings?
« on: December 05, 2011, 03:24:02 pm »
TINAS - What does "ninja'd" mean?
It means "sarnath'd," and urbandictionary.com has both of them.

Donald, thanks for supplying the latter.  The entry for it in the dictionary was much shorter.  I started with ninja'd, but that collection of entries was vaguely disturbing and (wait for it, as I use this for the very first time since having it explained to me a few days ago):

TL;DR

Damn, its a good day when you don't feel quite such the dinosaur.

2316
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which games count towards ratings?
« on: December 05, 2011, 03:14:00 pm »
Thank you kind sir.  And now I know why I feel like I've played lots more than the stats say I have.

2317
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which games count towards ratings?
« on: December 05, 2011, 11:59:16 am »
I guess the one way to answer #3 would be to note how many games I've played through midnight last night, then play a known number of games today (all with the cards restricted to the base set), then check my record tomorrow see if the number of games has changed. 

TINAS - What does "ninja'd" mean?  (And by the way, thanks for the games a couple of weeks ago.  I hope to find you again.)

2318
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« on: December 05, 2011, 10:22:31 am »
On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
It doesn't really matter points-wise.

Going for 3 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.
Going for 4 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.

Although I could understand the importance of denying your opponents them in which case getting 4 is better than getting 3.

Have I missed something?  If you have 4 duchies, and then buy Dukes, wouldn't it go 4-8-12 etc?

2319
Dominion General Discussion / Which games count towards ratings?
« on: December 05, 2011, 10:11:14 am »
I know the leaderboard is in a state of flux and heavy discussion, and may have changed again in the past 48 hours, but I hope someone can help me with the following. Assumptions: a) game is played today; b) both players are logged in; c) Doug's rule of a few months ago about games with cards being selected is in effect.  I hope these are phrased in a way to allow yes/no answers.

1) If cards are randomly selected by the computer, but veto mode is used, will the game be used in calculating your rating?
2) If the "bias" feature is used to bias towards a given expansion, will the game be used in calculating your rating?

One further question.  Because I am a newer player, I often seek out players whose status message tells me they are also learning.  A lot of them have the base set at home.  We will therefore manually set the card constraints to "!set=base", but allow ALL 10 kingdom cards (10 of 10) to be selected from the base game ONLY.  I consider this still a random selection of cards, but obviously from a smaller pool of possibilities.  Do games played under these conditions get used in the calculation of your rating?

Edit: Revised question 2 for clarity and facilitation of yes/no response.

2320
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: December 01, 2011, 05:22:00 pm »
Oh, I had figured that out, but when I went into preview mode and the formatting didnt move into the "all pretty" stage, I thought I had done it wrong, so I deleted it and tried a manual version.  Thanks for the help.

2321
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: December 01, 2011, 05:20:41 pm »

2322
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: December 01, 2011, 04:15:21 pm »
of the post I want to quote?

2323
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: December 01, 2011, 03:06:44 pm »
ehunt said:
Can I propose "hare brained scheme" for a strategy that involves buying lots of schemes and using the schemes only to put the schemes on top of the deck?

I just played a game against WHARF 2 THA BRIDGE where I did a bit of this.  Oh well, I've been making a concerted effort to buy cards I've never bought.  Turns out that buying them is one thing, using them correctly is another. WHARF was very kind to put up with my long turns (I also bought Masquerade, Warehouse, Cartographer, and Sea Hag, all for the first time, and Worker's Village was on the board), though I suspect his pain was minimal given the score.  He bought 7 of the provinces, all the duchies, and I think all the estates.

Question on Lingo - What is "AP"? The subject of the thread was multiple plays of the "beginning kingdom" when teaching noobs.

Also, what is tl;dr?  I see it occassionally, and I haven't been able to work it out, either as an abbreviation or an handmade emoticon (though I've not tried standing on my head when looking at it).

And finally, can someone tell me how to quote from another post properly?

2324
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Analyzing a board
« on: December 01, 2011, 11:54:14 am »
Thanks, that's a huge help.

2325
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Your nicknames for Dominion cards
« on: December 01, 2011, 11:50:59 am »
Salvager is savager, because my girlfriend uses it so effectively against me.

Similarly, I now think of Remodel as re-modal. After she plays it, the score is generally much more bi-modal in its distribution.  It also makes me think of yodel, which can be used to describe the mournful howl I want to let go at the time.

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