Maybe this will spark some conversation:Thank you. I've scumread Faust all game. Although it could just be my anti meta bias. I'll give Faust a re-read.
I am planning to challenge faust.
We don't know the setup. Galz could be mafia promoter. Or did I miss something?Should we have the claiming conversation before I make my challenge?
People in this town seem to place a lot of store in claims, so I really don't want to make a strong case on scum and then end up being the lynch because of some ridiculous fake claim.
We should probably give people the opportunity to claim before you challenge, yes. At this point we know the setup so any fakeclaims can be countered.
This is why I advocate for pure clarity. I do not understand what you mean. Please explain this particular post with zero sarcasm or jokes. I apologize, understanding those things isn't my strong suit.But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.Sadly ari whisperer, Joseph, died, but...isn't this one of the towniest things you've ever heard?
But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.The distinction is in your lack of care regarding finding and challenging scum. If you were town, your absolute goal would be to NOT challenge town here, where town loses 100% of the time, but instead to challenge scum where, even if it’s not convenient for you, there’s a chance of us lynching correctly. You don’t care who you challenge, as long as you win. That isn’t pro-town, that’s pro-Joth, and that’s exactly the approach scum would take to try and appear townie.
You know what the best feature of a Vig is? It’s a 100% town controlled, no scum-input kill. You know what the downside is? It shorts our numbers. Being promoted as town is all the upside and none of the downside. But by making it a public poll all you’re trying to do is garner town favor by “acting” pro-town - instead of just being pro-town.
I disagree. Especially because the outcome of me making the decision without town input would be to piss everyone off, further increasing the already-high chances they vote for me.
Look, if you had picked someone with a lot of town cred, they could have played it the way you're suggesting. Heck, you could have picked yourself if you wanted to play it that way and had some real skin in the game. But what did you think was going to happen when you picked someone who almost got lynched yesterday? In the position I'm in, using my challenge power without town input is suicide.
Also you are being disingenuous when you continually state that I don't care about finding scum. At no point have I suggested that I would use my power against someone I don't think is scum. The question is, out of the set of people I consider to be likely scum, which will I pick? And the answer is, duh, the one I can beat in a 1v1 vote-off. PPE 2
Why would I ever choose someone with town cred or that I thought was town? See, you’re STILL not looking at it from a town perspective. I laid it out D1: The best use of the entire role from a town perspective is to choose the player they MOST think to be scum, because even if they’re wrong, that player then gets to choose again. That’s two opportunities to force scum into being the 50/50 chance. Picking myself would be the absolute worst use of the role as there would then only be one opportunity to find scum (my own challenge choice). By choosing you, I’m essentially saying “Joth is my challenge choice”, except if I’m wrong YOU get to pick your own top choice.
I don’t give a damn about public opinion and neither should you (or any town). If we end up in a town-v-town challenge, regardless if you’re guaranteed to win or not, town loses. So IF you’re town then start acting like it instead of trying primarily to protect your own hide.
No. EFHW came back.UnvoteI'll be available for the next three hours, then I'll be going to bed. Anyone want to ask me anything before MiX flips town?
Also, Chairs' saying "oh no, MiX was town after all" sounds suspiciously similar to my "oh no, MiX was town after all" at the end of day one in the last game I played. Significantly shorter and with less emotion, but similar. And I was scum that time.
Do you really like your vote on EFHW right now?
Sarcasm mode: OnI don't want to lynch chairs. They've made 9 posts. None of them seemed scummy to me. Not enough interaction to really tell us anything tomorrow. MiX is a better lynch.Plus we always seem to end up lynching lurkers and it's no help
And we always seem to end up mislynching chairs as a lurker
I would rather lynch Swan or EFHW, those 3 seem to be the worst offenders on "who hasn't been talked about"?
We haven't touched Faust. Everybody just takes his towniness as guaranteed. And I disagree regarding discussion: we've got a day, I think we can at least make something we can look back on in later days, even if we don't lynch chairs today.Apologies. "Hate" was an unnecessarily strong word, and it didn't apply. I think you're fine and nice as well. What I meant to say was you've been arbitrarily considering me to be scum all game. Vote: Chairs Why? I know why: I'm just not gonna say it. ...Fine, it's because we haven't talked about him all game and I want to spark discussion.1. It's not arbitrary
2. I don't hate you
I want to emphasize #2 here because I know I can be a little harsh sometimes in-game, but at the end of the day it is just a game and as a human being I like you just fine and think you're very nice.
There won't be a discussion this close to deadline. My thought was: why is everyone on the viable lynch pool very towny and/or joth? And I feel like the answer is there's scum in whoever we haven't even touched yet.
Apologies. "Hate" was an unnecessarily strong word, and it didn't apply. I think you're fine and nice as well. What I meant to say was you've been arbitrarily considering me to be scum all game. Vote: Chairs Why? I know why: I'm just not gonna say it. ...Fine, it's because we haven't talked about him all game and I want to spark discussion.1. It's not arbitrary
2. I don't hate you
I want to emphasize #2 here because I know I can be a little harsh sometimes in-game, but at the end of the day it is just a game and as a human being I like you just fine and think you're very nice.
Jothenoah has arbitrarily hated me all game. Did an iso, not liking it to much. I wont get more specific, because obviously that would help scum.My scumread is Faust. But I tried gunning against him, and look how that worked out. Everybody saying "Your case sucks" and with no reasons why (except SpaceAnemone, who addressed my dislike of meta rather than the case itself). So I did run out of things to do. I can't attack my scumread, I can't defend my townread. I'm gonna iso ADK and see whether I like lynching him. And I'll be here till about 5 hours to deadline, if it's 5:30 AM.MiX feels pretty much the same as he did in the only other game I played: he was town. However, I was scum that game, so coulda been biased because I totally knew what he was. But still. I'm not getting on the MiX wagon.
Your last post was also a defense of me; I get it, it won a game for you, but instead of defending me you should find a scumread and push it. You haven't done much with your vote, seems like you ran out of things to do.
Get. More. Scum. Reads. Please? You did last time (in a very fake way, really) so I know you can do the same.
My scumread is Faust. But I tried gunning against him, and look how that worked out. Everybody saying "Your case sucks" and with no reasons why (except SpaceAnemone, who addressed my dislike of meta rather than the case itself). So I did run out of things to do. I can't attack my scumread, I can't defend my townread. I'm gonna iso ADK and see whether I like lynching him. And I'll be here till about 5 hours to deadline, if it's 5:30 AM.MiX feels pretty much the same as he did in the only other game I played: he was town. However, I was scum that game, so coulda been biased because I totally knew what he was. But still. I'm not getting on the MiX wagon.
Your last post was also a defense of me; I get it, it won a game for you, but instead of defending me you should find a scumread and push it. You haven't done much with your vote, seems like you ran out of things to do.
So something just occurred to me....That is a fantastic reason. I stand corrected. Unvote
If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.
Ok. I refuse to help anyone find scum ever again. I'm town now, right? Total unhelpful-ness, of the finest variety. And here, why don't I throw out a random vote for no reason? Vote: Jothenoah
Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.
How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?
Let me turn that around for you: What does scum gain by being obviously unhelpful? Scum players want to be helpful; their helpfulness is just leading town down the wrong path. Wanton, willful unhelpfulness usually comes from town. Or Awaclus.
Second, let me disabuse you of the notion that town is a big happy family working together to solve a problem. We are a big happy family working together to solve a problem -- with a small happy family embedded in us that is working to stop the problem from being solved. If we adopt a philosophy of "everyone shares everything all the time", that helps scum, not town. Sometimes town players keep things to themselves for some period of town. It's actually the only way we can counteract the information asymmetry. Automatically giving all the information we have to town (and therefore also to scum) just furthers it.
I really don't like Ari's faust case, but I don't think it's malicious/scummy per se, just a bit of an indication that they're a newbie with little feel for people's meta, or the overall meta of f.ds mafia.Greetings. Bring on the criticism, it's pro town play. Thank you for the advice and context. I will keep it in mind. Unvote.
@Ari, hi! I don't think we've played before. Apologies for starting out our interaction with a criticism, but coming into a game with a blunt assertion that it's anti-town not to share everything, while obviously being unaware of the long history of this having been discussed in numerous games before, is a bit naive, and really isn't going to win over many of the vets. Faust is a seasoned player who knows what he's doing. He comes across as weirdly cantankerous sometimes, and economical with his words, but that's not alignment indicative. The only reliable tell I found for him being scum is that if you get into a situation where there's complex logical reasoning, he can sometime spin it the wrong way to cover for himself or his teammates as scum, but obviously won't use the same spin as town. It's not a very frequently-applicable tell :-(
In case it helps give you a framework for thinking about the more meta side of the game works here, consider that any given player, especially vets who've been playing such games with one another for years and years, is probably not thinking only of their win or loss in this one particular game. They've got form, there are things they've done before as scum, and things they've discussed previously with people who were their scum buddies in other games, but who might now be town while they're scum again (or vice versa!), and there are patterns of behaviour that tend to repeat. The pace of innovation in any given direction is limited by how people feel any changes in their behaviour might adversely affect their faction in this game, and also other people's perceptions of them in future games. If you're too ridiculously townie as town and can't emulate it when you're scum, your scum game suffers. If you're too unhelpful or abrasive as a player, people will more happily lynch you off even in your townier games. Players like faust are so ancient they've converged on some kind of an optimum presentation. (I (hope I can) get away with saying this, since I'm more ancient than faust is IRL, even though I'm a relative newbie in f.ds mafia terms, having only been playing mafia here for ~3 years).
PPE 6 or 7: not sure that needed an essay, but there you go :-P
This isn't the "if I were scum I wouldn't do this" defense, it was a admonition on everyone else for not addressing my lack of participation. Also, I said I "could" do X action, not I "would". Even after all this, I don't blame anyone who adds on scum points for that. That was a mistake.If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum.
Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.Reason number one. Unexplained vote.
Not scummy.QuoteReason number two. General unhelpful-ness.
Definitely not scummyQuoteFinally, I also just get a scummy vibe from him.
Not a case.
Vote: ariSeems I'm on the lynch wagon faster than last game. MiX, I now know how you felt.
I agree, unprompted speculations on "if I were scum" is pretty scummy. When did I do that?How is that the scummiest thing you've ever read? It was complete and total transparency and honesty! The unvarnished truth!First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!
is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?
Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.
This is going to sound dumb, but I have a little mental notebook of scumtells based on my own experiences. One of them is this: Unprompted "if I were scum..." reflections are much more likely to come from scum who thinks they're being clever than from town. Why? Because town isn't thinking about if they were scum. I've found this to be fairly reliable.
Also ari's case on faust is terrible, and faust is definitely town here.
Come join me on the ari wagon, friends!
MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.
MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)
Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.
This is a compelling case and I'm comfortable continuing to vote for MiX.
I would also vote for ari at this point though. The recently posted faust case comes feels manipulative to me. Just dumps a bunch of quotes with no context. For exampleIf town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.
Vote: ADKEven after repeated pressure from me and ADK, Faust has refused to provide justification for this vote. I've repeatedly stated why this is super anti town, I don't want to sound like a broken record. If anyone needs to know why this is scummy, ask. Or re-read me.
Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.
If town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.
I sure hope we're in one of the scenarios that have only 1 scum!
I think he's a bit towny.
Can you guys just move on already?
Here"s a notable setup point worth discussing: We can still lynch whoever we want on D2 if we do it before the 72 hour deadline for the Gladiator expires.
Let's just say if gkrieg were the Traitor, we'd already know...Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.
This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.
Seriously, gkrieg tends to have pretty good reads as town but for some reason people read him scummy and he gets mislynched frequently. As scum he's much easier to detect IRL. chairs is like always kind of excited when he starts playing, and then something terrible happens in his life and he can't participate. He's also very much a gut feeling kind of player. joth I feel I haven't really played with enough yet. Galzria's current meta is unfortunately that he lurks until he is replaced.
I can think of no rebuttal. I retract my statements regarding sarcasm and joking being scum points, although they should still be avoided.I don't think it's a scumtell. I do think it's an anti town move, and that avoiding it would be good for town. I also think that if somebody already has a few anti town acts to their name, joking and sarcasm should count as points against them.
Why would jokes and sarcasm count more if said person's already scummy? Seems like confirmation bias to me.
