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Messages - werothegreat

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Rules Questions / Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« on: November 07, 2018, 07:53:17 pm »
Hmm. I mean, I can't even think of an instance where it would actually matter if you can play more Treasures after buying from Black Market, as the card lets you play more Treasures while it's being played anyway. The only potential problem I can think of is more than one Black Market, which can just be played by the first Black Market anyway.

Rules Questions / Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« on: November 07, 2018, 05:21:25 pm »
It's not that I think your interpretation is clearly wrong, it isn't. It just that you quoted one sentence, that is summing up 4 paragraphs of buy phase explanation, IMO out of context. The first two of those paragraphs start with

> First you can play any number of Treasure cards from your hand, in any order....
> Then, you can buy one card, costing as much as you have or less....

I think this is a strong indicator for a conceptual division of the buy phase (though not explicit, agreed). Also the sentence you quote says "You cannot go back and play more Treasures..." If you played a Black Market during the Buy phase, there would be no 'going back', as you never left the part where you play Treasures. Again, in the context of a base Dominion rulebook that just two paragraphs before feels necessary to say that "Buying cards does not use up Treasure cards; you still have the cards." it should be a possible interpretation that the sentece you quote refers to the normal buying in the buy phase.

But again, there isn't really a "Treasure-playing part" explicitly in the rules, or even mentioned on any cards.  We treat the "start" of phases differently because cards refer to them, and their timing can be noted.  This is why a Summoned Transmogrify can be called immediately - it's still the start of your turn.  This all progresses very neatly from the basic rules and what's on the cards.

Transmogrify can be called at the start of your turn --> Summon plays a card at the start of your turn --> Summoned Transmogrify goes on your Tavern mat at the start of your turn --> That same Transmogrify can now be called

It's a neat, logical process that you can deduce.

The Buy phase rules come down to "you can play Treasures until you buy a card."  No part of these rules says Treasures are played at the start of your Buy phase.  In fact, the start of your Buy phase is before "normal" Treasure playing - look at Arena.  Dominion players have been playing "I can't play any more Treasures after I buy something" for a decade now.

Now if Black Market were doing literally anything else - playing Actions, gaining without buying, reducing costs, getting resources, trashing, discarding, whatever - of course you could play more Treasures afterward.  But Black Market specifically lets you buy a card, which is what matters about Treasure play timing.  The official FAQ for Black Market mentions that buying a card in your Action phase doesn't matter with regards to your Buy phase, but the rules are pretty clear about the Buy phase.  It doesn't matter whether the Buy is a Buy that uses up one of your Buys (a "normal" Buy) or the special one Black Market lets you do - it's still a Buy.

Let's imagine there's a new type of card - let's call them Preactions.  The rules on Preactions is you can play any number of Preactions at the start of your turn.  Once you play an Action, you can't "go back and" play more Preactions.  But what if there were a Preaction that could play an Action?  It would be pretty clear that if that Preaction played an Action, you couldn't play any more Preactions afterward.  It doesn't matter that that Preaction playing an Action doesn't count as using up your Action for that Action phase, you played an Action, no more Preactions.  That's the rules for Preactions.

I feel I'm just rambling at this point, but really I don't see allowing more Treasure plays after buying a card through Black Market during your Buy phase as being at all justifiable.

Rules Questions / Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« on: November 07, 2018, 11:55:10 am »
I've been thinking about this some more.  Black Market's "you may buy one of them" to me reads like Throne Room's "you may play an Action" in that it definitely shouldn't count against your Buys, even when played during the Buy phase: it gives you an extra opportunity to buy.  HOWEVER, it is still a "Buy", even though it's not using up a Buy.

So when you play BM during the Action phase, you cannot use Coffers or pay off Debt (not your Buy phase), and BM explicitly says you can play Treasures.  Then you get to your real Buy phase, which starts by letting you play Treasures, spend Coffers, pay off Debt.  However, once you buy a card during your Buy phase, you can no longer play Treasures or spend Coffers.  I get that Donald X has a conception of two halves of the Buy phase, but that is not explicit in the actual rules.

If you play a Black Market in your Buy phase, and Buy a card, you should not be able to play any more Treasures afterward, period*.  This has the added benefit of being most intuitive to new players ("Oh, I bought a card, I can't play any more Treasures, makes sense") even if it may cause competitive players to bitch and moan that they can't play as optimally as they might like.

* The exception being if you play Black Market with Black Market with Black Market etc. in a 10-fold Dominion matryoshka, in which case once you resolve one level of Black Markets, the next level up should let you continue playing new Treasures until you buy or choose not to buy with that one.

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« on: November 07, 2018, 09:01:36 am »
Anyone know why all the pictures on the wiki are fuzzy?

Because they're from fuzzy pictures from the rulebook pdf posted online.  No one (except playtesters) has a physical copy yet.

Rules Questions / Scepter + Storyteller/BM
« on: November 07, 2018, 08:56:01 am »
If I play Scepter via Storyteller or BM, can it replay the ST/BM that played it, even though it isn't finished being played?

Rules Questions / Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« on: November 07, 2018, 08:27:43 am »
I mean, the 2E rules also say "You cannot go back and play more Treasures after buying a card; first play Treasures, then buy."  It would seem to me to be more consistent that Black Market's buy counts as ceasing Treasure playing.  Though I can also see the argument that BM in the Action phase doesn't disallow playing Treasure in the Buy phase, and BM has always been weird with Coffers.

I think it would be most consistent to go with either a) BM's buy is a buy in the buy phase, and all that that implies (no Treasures/Coffers afterwards), or b) BM is its own weird sui generis thing and doesn't count as a "buy" in the buy phase.  However, going with b) begs the question, what about Goons and Merchant Guild?  Does BM's buy count as a buy for their purposes?  When does it count as a buy and when not?  I think a) is the best option here.

Feedback / Re: Chrome Extension for f.ds!
« on: November 06, 2018, 10:01:54 pm »
Capitalism makes Inherited Estates also count as Treasures sometimes. Woah.

An Inherited Capitalized Caravan Guard is an Action-Duration-Reaction-Treasure-Victory.  Seprix made a custom banner template for it, and a few other combinations.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Can't Stop Playing Spooky Kingdoms
« on: November 03, 2018, 12:02:57 pm »
How has no one mentioned Harem's art yet

Dominion General Discussion / Re: card ranking lists
« on: October 05, 2018, 01:50:32 pm »
The reason it hasn't been posted here is because Adam had a big falling out with this forum a while back.

Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.

I mean, it depends on what else you open with.  I wouldn't mind having a Flag Bearer in my deck if my was Forager or Oasis or even just a Silver.

Or even subsumed into the Borg Rats!

Rules Questions / Re: Order of gaining card vs. on gain effects
« on: October 01, 2018, 02:08:01 pm »
Compare to Trader's effect, which happens before you (would) gain the card in question.

I guess my question was actually if Renaissance rules were a change to the Empire rules here; and I’m taking your reference to Empires as a “no”.
The rulebook for Renaissance hasn't been posted yet, so I looked in the Empires rulebook. I've said a bunch of stuff about Renaissance, so I can understand thinking, who knows, maybe he'll answer this; what does it matter if people know this anyway? OTOH at the point at which this information will be useful, you will be able to find out the answer without me. So the question doesn't leave me feeling particularly generous.

You know that old wisdom: "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"?

Although the question was not particularly consequential, you didn't have to answer it. Instead, you answered a question about Renaissance by saying "I checked the Empires rulebook for you", which doesn't even make sense, and the "for you" just makes it slightly rude.

Recently on the forums I saw some posts back and forth where you kept using "your mom" insults. Being the creator of the game we all love gives you status. We're the customers. You should use your status to take the higher ground and set an example for everyone else.

Just be glad we have Donald X and not sirlin

Hmm.. If you play a Crown in your Night phase, I suppose it does nothing?


Innovation, when your first gain is in your buy phase can you use the coin supplied by the purchased and played card? What about coffers? I'm pretty sure it's a no for coffers. If you buy a crown and innovation plays it does it have to be played as an action?

Coins, yes. Coffers, no.

Crown is not "played as an Action". It is both an Action and a Treasure. If gained during your Buy phase, Innovation can play it, and since it is your Buy phase, you will be able to play a Treasure twice.

How many Experiments are there? We have 12 Ports, will we also have 12 Experiments?

Just 10.  The fact that they return to the Supply makes it fine.

Butcher + Silk Merchant

Obvious and potentially useful turbo remodel variant.
Silk Merchant guarantees 5 on the first shuffle. Amass Butchers and Silk Merchants, turning some starting estates into Silk Merchants early. Maybe mill a Silk Merchant for+4 Coffers and +2 Villagers. With 1 extra token, Butcher can take Silk Merchant straight to Province in the end game. The Villagers should allow multiple-Butcher turns. There are interesting decisions around when to play Silk Merchants.

Welcome to the forum.

Nocturne got a bunch of Attacks mainly to show off the Hexes, I would think.

I adore that the art for Villain is Jaime Lannister lounging on the Iron Throne.

For old time's sake, presenting: COMBOS WITH SCOUT (RIP)

Mountain Village: One of the big problems with Scout is when you buy it, you don't get to play it until your next shuffle. But Mountain Village solves that problem by letting you pluck your freshly purchased Scout from your discard pile and put it into your hand. For better results, add in more Scouts (note: the pile is likely to run).

Seer: Scout cab't draw itself. But Seer can draw Scout, and it will draw those pesky Estates so that Scout can draw the Victory cards you really want in hand, like Duchies or something.

Scholar: This makes you discard your hand, which is a huge problem: say goodbye to your precious green cards! That's where Scout comes in, drawing them back into your hand for you, where you want them.

Now I see why Donald had to remove Scout--he realized any game that had Renaissance cards and Scout would just be over too quickly.

Priest: Trashes away everything other than Victory cards, so your Scouts draw more reliably.

So what happens if you play an experiment you bought from black market?

Congratulations, you smuggled in a Laboratory on a Ferry.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dutch Nocturne is 'expected'...
« on: September 21, 2018, 08:36:44 am »
On a tangent: How do you use "every other" in English so that it doesn't take the meaning of "Every other Wednesday I do sports"?

You can say "all other".

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: September 20, 2018, 10:39:14 pm »
At least Nocturne doesn’t have the version of Tormentor that flipped two Hexes and let each opponent choose one to receive.

See, that would have actually been flavorful as a "torment".  But yes, probably for the best overall.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dutch Nocturne is 'expected'...
« on: September 20, 2018, 07:25:48 am »
(is 'orderable' even a word?)

In English, anything can be a word

Rules Questions / Re: Anything needed for Empires?
« on: September 19, 2018, 11:14:09 pm »
As printed, Overlord comes after Royal Blacksmith in the rules (presumably because RB was supposed to be called Old Blacksmith until Alayna Lemmer happened).  It should probably come before, going alphabetically.  Same for the box insert.

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