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276

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 26, 2019, 01:09:04 pm »

I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

I think once again you're reading wrong?
I understood that LLs alignment changes unless she was blocked.

Yes, I got that backwards again.

277

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 26, 2019, 01:06:18 pm »

If we think LL is the person most likely to be scum, we should lynch her today regardless of how informative the wagon is

Well, that's already a lot better than lynching him just because he's low/potentially negative utility even if he's telling the truth.

As you said, it's important to consider both of the possible scenarios.

278

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 26, 2019, 10:56:34 am »

If we think LL is the person most likely to be scum, we should lynch her today regardless of how informative the wagon is (and I think at this point it's decently informative). This is an RMM, we don't know what powers scum could have but we probably want to minimize their opportunities to use them.

279

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 26, 2019, 10:50:27 am »

Has anyone pointed out that giving the hated modified out as a night action is definitely a scum-style power?

Did Joth suggest that likelihood. I think he did. Something about helping along the easy mislynch, I think.

Did anyone then mention that a good scum tactic for gaining towncred would be to use said scum power on a member of your own faction?  And doing so early in the game is sensible for safety and maximum benefit?

No, I guess that hadn’t been pointed out yet.

It's also possible that it's a scum power and they didn't know that it would be announced publicly. Personally I don't think it says anything about joth's alignment one way or the other.

280

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 26, 2019, 10:48:30 am »

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

Two other points about LL's claim that have me thinking that it could easily be fake:

The "Shy" modifier presumably is related to the alignment-changing part of the claim. However, LL's alignment would change if she's unable to visit or if no-one targets her; that sounds like the opposite of shy to me, so it could be a modification of a real role that LL knows about somehow.

"Bugged" makes sense for a role that would give an AI a chance as identifying as human, but less so for a role that would give a human a chance of identifying as AI. Of course faust could have given the Bugged modifier to various people and just called it the same thing in all cases, but it feels a bit out of place here and could easily be something that scum!LL took from her true role or one of her teammates' roles.

281

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 25, 2019, 04:16:47 pm »

Do you understand there’s no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasn’t offered to anyway.

Personally, I think it's good that there's no way for you to win now if you change alignment so you're forced to do your best to help town if you want to win.

282

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 25, 2019, 01:40:42 pm »

So you're saying you do think she's scum... but you don't want to lynch her?

No, I don't know if he's scum or not, that's why I'm considering both of the possible scenarios. In both of the possible scenarios, both town and scum want to be on the wagon so it doesn't tell us anything about anyone's alignment, which is why we should have a more informative lynch today and focus on this later, preferably when we also have more info.

Hey look, you're saying no-one would oppose lynching LL but here you (and mail-mi) are opposing it!

Your naked vote on Swan puts 0 pressure on him at this point in the game; if you actually have a case against him you should post that. Right now it looks a lot like you voted for him in order to tempt me to follow since you know I've expressed a scumread on him.

283

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles

« on: January 25, 2019, 07:48:35 am »

In a game without

Bridge, Bridge Troll, Highway, Inventor, Ferry, Canal, Quarry, Tournament

have a card set aside with Prince that costs more than $4.

Use Innovation to play Prince during your Buy phase. Set aside Peddler.

284

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 25, 2019, 05:53:53 am »

LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Noone's alignment can change without their consent.

This is a good point, especially if she has to visit someone.

Yeah, seconded. I'd just started worrying about the forced alignment change aspect too.

Read again, folks:

LL's alignment would change if she successfully visited. 
So her alignment would have changed if her role worked as she intended.  That is, LL's role is essentially an option to change alignment (unless blocked or something).   So yeah, given that it is LL's choice to attempt to change alignment, the claim definitely fits within the "consent" aspect.


Then again if we don't know the wincon of self-aligned!LL, lynching LL may well be as a good a choice as any: either LL is lying scum or LL is a semi-towny with an option to change alignment to something unknown at some point in the future, an ability which she has already demonstrated a desire to use.

Right, I misread that part, but you missed where she claims to be a compulsive vistor, so to visit or not can't be the choice part of the alignment change. For her to stay town her visit must be blocked or someone must target her.

I am still inclined to lynch LL unless someone claims they targeted her last night.

285

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 04:27:53 pm »

One thought about LL's claimed role: since we know there's a survivor-like faction in the game already, it seems likely that "self-aligned" means that LL would turn into some sort of SK if she changes alignment.

286

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 01:18:08 pm »

Oh, this is interesting and I need to think about it some more so I am putting it here to remember.  So, if Hyper had agreed, he's have still been town but he would have been tied to a leader who is not Breq (presumably), so the only thing different about being VT and the change would have been the precarious position of having his fate tied to someone else's? Is that how it would have worked? You're right that it is what is interesting about the books (the house divided) and faust would likely maintain that. So, there isn't a third party, just a self-interested leader?

No, it's explicitly an alignment change, so I would be part of a different faction with a different win condition than town's. The new win condition doesn't completely overlap with town's: town is required to have at least one Radch-aligned player alive at the end of the game. So there's probably some possibility that the cult ends up as the only faction left alive in which case I may regret the decisions I have made.

287

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Signups open!)

« on: January 24, 2019, 11:20:44 am »

For those analysing the flavour, don't forget this:

The setting is roughly at the start of the second book.

which might be helpful.

288

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 11:02:39 am »

Here's the thing. If there's a survivor, that's the most likely person to have lynchproof.

What if ash is lying and hated is NOT part of her role but lynchproof IS? Maybe she got hated N0 from the same person who gave me hated today. It does seem weird that that person didn't counterclaim when ash said it was part of her role, but some people really don't like to claim.

I agree that lynchproof points to survivor or SK, but then there's no reason for E to fake a cop result and protect ash.

Your hated was announced in the thread while hers wasn't, so it makes sense that they'd be from different sources.

289

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 10:46:25 am »

hypercube: since it looks like this day might end early, is there anything else you want to say before you bow out of this game? Final reads list, etc?

We should make sure no one hammers anyone until you feel like you've said your peace.

A few thoughts about ash and E that I guess I should get out there. Glooble bringing up ash not dying when we lynched her reminded me that that was pretty weird. Ash's suggested explanation that it had something to do with mcmc's role isn't really satisfying.

I'm still happy to treat them as town for today but I don't think they should escape scrutiny just because of E's cop claim. For example it's definitely possible that ash is town and E is scum; I don't think that's likely given their other actions but their alignments aren't absolutely tied together. Also I assume ash will have to full claim at some point and it'll be important to really go back and check that claim against the things she's said earlier today.

290

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 10:40:01 am »

Ok, i can’t quote the qt but there is a short piece i’ve read differently. I apparently may decline, but i have no idea what happens in this case. Assume death

From my standpoint lynching me is terrible, but from yours you are losing one town who may as well become the liability. So go ahead

Yeah, given my experience I would guess that the other option is death. That's not such a bad option if you think town is more likely to win than you are to survive.

291

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 10:08:49 am »

LL's claim doesn't make sense. The mechanism for her alignment claim, as I understand it, is that her alignment would change if her visit is blocked or if no-one targets her. That contradicts the setup:

Noone's alignment can change without their consent.

292

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 10:04:24 am »

Oh yeah, I may as well claim that I am not an AI. I suppose human vs. AI could have some impact on who the cult can recruit.

293

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 09:22:57 am »

There's this, which seems to indicate that joth had some sort of interaction with LL last night.

A couple things.
3) I don’t want to force anyone to claim, but my power could help explain the lack of a nightkill iff LaLight is bulletproof or was targeted with protection.

294

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 06:08:02 am »

Anyways vote: LL starting a wagon on someone while openly stating you have no intention of lynching them is scummy. Probably not understanding why pro-town things are pro-town is also not indicative of a town mindset.

295

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 06:02:41 am »

If I had a strong PR (especially one which could be used to protect the leader) I probably would have joined the cult. As I'm a VT, I can't protect the leader other than with my voice and my vote (which probably would end up looking scummy), and I'm not super necessary for catching scum. I don't exactly have a long history of making good reads, after all. Additionally my wagon was getting a good amount of action D1 so my flip helps town a bit in that way as well.

296

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 24, 2019, 05:56:43 am »

Apologies, I neglected to mention this, but I was told that if I decided to join the cult I would join a QT with the leader at the end of the Day.

Again, this is all based on information I received directly from faust, so I don't think it's possible that I've been misled.

To answer LL's question about why it's pro-town for me to die rather than join the cult and live, if I was actually part of the cult right now there's no reason for you to believe what I'm saying. It's very possible that eventually cooperation between town and the cult will help town win the game, and that cooperation is probably impossible unless town actually knows that the cult's win condition aligns with ours, since claiming such would be an obvious play for a non-town aligned cult.

Regarding the rA, bA, gA stuff, that's certainly one possibility. The other possibility that I could think of is that everyone who joins the cult becomes Anaander Mianaai, and in order for the cult to win all of the non-leader members must die before the end of the game. I think that's less likely, but it's worth considering.

297

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 23, 2019, 04:22:16 pm »

What makes you so certain joth is town?

Maybe it's because she keeps buddying me!

Well, mostly it's because she's been under a lot of pressure and I think she's handled it pretty well overall. She's not playing afraid of people scumreading her, which I like. I also think the cases she's built have been reasonable, and seemed to reflect town thinking.

I'm not so certain of this that I think joth is above scrutiny; certainly if mail-mi flipped town that would cause me to reevaluate my read on joth.

She was definitely playing afraid earlier. All through d1 and into early d2.  Less so now maybe.

She was defensive I thought but not afraid. If you're afraid you probably don't keep doing things like blatant SK hunting.

298

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 1)

« on: January 23, 2019, 02:00:46 pm »

The only reason I'm not voting ashersky is I think he's unlikely to be scum with that power. But that leaves me thinking she's town that's playing really badly, and that doesn't sit super well with me with what I know of ashersky.

It has no bearing at this juncture, but we often discuss having vig shots directed.  But there is thecscum element there that can’t be erased. Instead, I used the flow of day and the votes.

Honestly, if I had chosen by myself, I’d have shot Glooble.

This makes zero sense to me. Ash is saying "I didn't want to have town direct my shot, because then scum would manipulate it." (so far so good). So instead, I let myself be guided by the top wagon, because clearly there's no possibility that scum is manipulating that.

(I am of course being sarcastic. There is every possibility that the largest day one wagon is on town and being manipulated by scum, in fact it's much, much more likely than not.)

Someone convince me that ashersky could be scum without the set up being broken because I badly want to vote for her.

I played a normal game on another site where scum team had 1 dayvig shot. Also maybe they should forgo the nk now. Or he’s a third party. Pick one

LaLight sure is quick to give joth a reason to vote for ash.

LL, why did you think scum maybe should forgo the nk?

299

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 23, 2019, 09:53:23 am »

What makes you so certain joth is town?

Maybe it's because she keeps buddying me!

Well, mostly it's because she's been under a lot of pressure and I think she's handled it pretty well overall. She's not playing afraid of people scumreading her, which I like. I also think the cases she's built have been reasonable, and seemed to reflect town thinking.

I'm not so certain of this that I think joth is above scrutiny; certainly if mail-mi flipped town that would cause me to reevaluate my read on joth.

300

Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)

« on: January 23, 2019, 09:36:55 am »

Anyways, I'll post a reads list while things are fresh in my mind

1. SpaceAnemone: Pretty towny D1, hasn't done much D2. Nullish town overall
2. jotheonah: I'm fairly sure she's town at this point
3. LaLight: Null
4. DatSwan: Started an argument with Awa (which I thought felt like it could be staged), asks a lot of questions which don't seem particularily incisive. Nullish scum, probably where I'd be voting if I wasn't voting for mail-mi right now
5. mail-mi: Nullish scum
6. Awaclus: Townish null
7. 2.71828.....: Pretty towny. I don't like that people just agreed with her cop claim uncritically but overall I think signs point to her being town
8. WestCoastDidds: Nullish town
9. Robz888: Hasn't done much other than vote for my wagon (which is bad). Nullish scum
10. hypercube: that's me irl
11. ashersky: Town
12. Haddock: I like what I've seen so far, so I'll give her a town read for now
13. Glooble: A good number of towny posts and a decent number of scummy posts. Was on my wagon, mcmc's wagon, and ash's wagon, which is kind of scummy. Probably a townish null read but not a terrible lynch choice since lots of people have expressed opinions on her.