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Messages - Robz888

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16376
Let's see, some cards from each set that I like or think are important...

Base: Militia, Moneylender, Chapel, Smithy, Throne Room, Witch
Intrigue: Masquerade, Torturer, Nobles
Seaside: Fishing Village, Wharf, Ambassador, Salvager
Prosperity: Hoard, Bishop, Monument, Grand Market, Watchtower
Alchemy: Apprentice, Scrying Pool, Alchemist
Cornucopia: Menagerie, Hunting Party
Hinterlands: Stables, Haggler, Border Village, Silk Road, Crossroads

16377
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 28, 2012, 12:51:33 pm »
Seems like the elegant answer to this is to allow your opponent to arrange your pre-shuffle discard, then you shuffle without looking at it.  You now have every incentive to randomize it as perfectly as possible.

Isn't it even more elegant to shuffle the deck a few extra times and just ignore/not care about what someone thinks they're actually doing when they discard?

Also, thanks to all of you continuing the discussion.  I'd be surprised if you even noticed the ordering of my discards when I play, with the possible exception of how I clean up an action chain (and, honestly, I'm surprised everyone doesn't clean up an action chain the same way).

I'm surprised everyone doesn't just lump their cards into a pile and put them on top of the discard as quickly as possible to keep the game moving. It takes about 2 seconds: Scoop up cards, put cards in discard.

16378
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 28, 2012, 12:30:34 pm »
IANAL, but I remember being told by law students that if you believe that the actions you will take will kill someone, this is attempted murder. At least in Germany.  But of course that was after some beer, so i don't know. Is OT anyway...

IAL, and it depends on the facts, but there comes a point where the act performed and the result desired are so impossibly unconnected that a charge of attempted murder will not fly.  Most of the scenarios I've posited here are ones that get hashed out in Criminal Law classes all the time.

But the scenarios pertaining to Dominion--ordering the discard and shuffling inadequately--are not at all unconnected!

The reason I have a problem with you giving some deliberate order to your discard pile (other than the perfectly reasonable hiding cards under the top card aspect), is that it is very, very easy to subsequently cheat by not shuffling your deck properly.

To use your murder analogies, if you are sitting at the Dominion table with your gun in front of you, and you say, "I'm not going to kill anyone--goodness, no! that would be wrong--but what's the harm in me loading my gun with bullets and aiming it at your head? I'm not going to kill you, you know. Pointing my gun at your head isn't murder!"

I would say that because you are doing the former (ordering your discard/loading your gun and pointing it at me), it's hard to take you at your word that you aren't doing the latter (incorrectly shuffling/murdering me).

16379
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 28, 2012, 12:05:40 pm »
What if I don't understand how Mine works, and I think the gained card goes in my discard pile instead of in my hand.  Intending to cheat, I put the card in my hand instead.  Did I just cheat because I had the intent to cheat and took an action, even though I could legally take that action?


Yes.

You obviously attempted to cheat, so that would be a shame on you.

Look, Dominion is a game of strategy, and some luck. It's a fun game and we all love it. If you play in person, it's also a game of constant, thorough shuffling. If you try to manipulate the outcome of a shuffle, you are playing in bad faith, even if you fail to manipulate the outcome of the shuffle. Don't do it. Gained cards on top, in whatever order, and shuffle, shuffle, shuffle shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. (7 times!)

16380
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 28, 2012, 02:50:47 am »
I generally just push all my cards together during clean-up and slap them on top of my discard, so it's possible to do it in a non-deliberate way. That said, you are allowed to be deliberate about the top card of your discard. That's all. The order of the rest does not... and should not... and will not, provided you shuffle adequately... matter.

Agreed here.  I would say, though, that not only can you be deliberate about the top card (the one "shown" to your opponent), but you are able to be just as deliberate about what remains hidden (the cards in your hand when clean-up begins, as there's no requirement to show those to your opponent).  For a simple example: hand starts as Witch-CCCE, play Witch and unluckily draw Witch and C, play 4xC and buy Remodel.  Remodel is currently the top card of your discard pile since it was gained before clean up begins.  I could put my played cards into the discard pile, then my hand, covering up the Witch with the Estate so you didn't know I burned through both that hand.

Other people in the thread were saying that they moved cards around in their discard because they believed it would result in better hands later. I suppose its fine to do this if you really, really, really, really, really shuffle well. But it's sort of in bad taste, because if you bother ordering your cards in such a way, it implies that you believe that ordering the discard matters, and if you believe ordering the discard matters, it implies you believe your shuffling will be less than adequate.

Lack of good shuffling is the issue, not ordering the discard. But if you order the discard with much deliberation--other than the top card--it suggests a lack of good shuffling is about to occur.

If you are deliberately using your discard order during clean-up to try and give yourself better hands post-shuffle, that's lame.  If you have a way of making it work, that's cheating.  So we agree there.

But I think we can agree there is at least one legitimate, and legal, reason for manipulating the discarding portion of clean-up: deciding what will show and what will remain hidden to your opponent.

No argument there!

16381
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 28, 2012, 02:26:05 am »
Right. I don't think people here were disagreeing with that. You are allowed to put your clean-up cards on top of your deck in any order. You may even do this to strategically "hide" cards from your opponents, because they can only see the top card.

What others, including myself, are saying, is that you shouldn't deliberately space out your terminals, or something, because you don't want to draw them together. How you arranged them shouldn't matter, because you are obligated to shuffle your deck thoroughly. So a discard arrangement that seeks to take advantage of your own bad shuffling is tantamount to cheating.

That makes sense, sort of, but seems to have an inherent contradiction built in.  I can clean up my cards in any order <i>I choose</i> but I should not <i>deliberately</i> do anything to affect the order in which they go into the discard pile, because any discard pre-arrangement could be advantageous.  So what order is the correct non-order of discarding during clean-up?  Isn't placing my cards on top of my discard pile going to be a deliberate act, no matter the order?  The question then becomes "how I can discard my cards without doing something that may be cheating, even accidentally?"

No one wants to draw their terminals together (generally), which is why we shuffle so much and hope for the best.  Whether the terminals start out next to each other in the discard pile before shuffling has no real affect if shuffling is adequate (as has been pointed out often).  So how could discarding them in any order (including far apart) within one clean-up matter, or be called cheating?

I generally just push all my cards together during clean-up and slap them on top of my discard, so it's possible to do it in a non-deliberate way. That said, you are allowed to be deliberate about the top card of your discard. That's all. The order of the rest does not... and should not... and will not, provided you shuffle adequately... matter.

Other people in the thread were saying that they moved cards around in their discard because they believed it would result in better hands later. I suppose its fine to do this if you really, really, really, really, really shuffle well. But it's sort of in bad taste, because if you bother ordering your cards in such a way, it implies that you believe that ordering the discard matters, and if you believe ordering the discard matters, it implies you believe your shuffling will be less than adequate.

Lack of good shuffling is the issue, not ordering the discard. But if you order the discard with much deliberation--other than the top card--it suggests a lack of good shuffling is about to occur.

16382
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 28, 2012, 01:34:17 am »
There seems to be a bit of confusion (at least for me) within this argument.  While the topic is titled "Shuffle Definition," there's a bit more discussion on discard rules than shuffling, I think. 

Taco Lobster's argument (in which I see the most merit) is that there is no rule on how or in what order cards from your hand and in-play must be discarded.  For example, if you choose to discard after being Torturer'ed, you may choose the order in which the two cards you discard enter the discard pile, so long as both cards enter the "top" of the pile.  That is not random, you chose the order.  It is NOT cheating.

I believe the same should be said for clean-up.  There is no rule, other than "on top" of the discard pile, for how you clean-up your turn.  (Is there?)  My actions are lined up in chronological order in my play area, my treasures in a pile below that, and victory cards still in hand.  As long as they all go on top of the discard pile (and not the bottom, or cut into the middle), I don't see how an opponent can claim I cheated if I blend the cards being cleaned-up into any order I want.  That includes putting the two terminal attacks at the top and bottom of the <i>stack of cards being cleaned up before placing the entire stack on top of the discard pile.</i>  (Responding to the original idea of splitting terminals.)

You shouldn't (can't) place one of those terminals at the bottom of your discard pile, since the bottom isn't the top.  I don't see why you can't split them up within the same clean-up.  To look at it another way, if you were to discard one card at a time, you could do so in any order, starting with a terminal attack as your first dicard and ending with a terminal attack as your last card.

Right. I don't think people here were disagreeing with that. You are allowed to put your clean-up cards on top of your deck in any order. You may even do this to strategically "hide" cards from your opponents, because they can only see the top card.

What others, including myself, are saying, is that you shouldn't deliberately space out your terminals, or something, because you don't want to draw them together. How you arranged them shouldn't matter, because you are obligated to shuffle your deck thoroughly. So a discard arrangement that seeks to take advantage of your own bad shuffling is tantamount to cheating.

16383
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 27, 2012, 10:26:31 pm »
From reading the last few pages, it looks like the main confusion is what randomness really entails.  ftl explained it a few times but it seems like there is still misunderstanding.

If you were to randomize the digits from 0-9, there is just as much chance of you getting 0123456789 as there is of you getting 3749182605.  However, the human brain sees a pattern in the former and not in the latter, and we naturally assume that patterns = not random. 

Likewise, drawing a hand of all actions, then a hand of all treasures followed by a hand of all greens seems really non-random to us.  But with perfect randomness, there is just as much chance of drawing these clumps as there is of getting three hands each with mixes of all three.

The human notion of chance and randomness is actually really interesting.  Consider the Gambler's fallacy. :)

I've read that in psychological studies, people consistently fail to recognize actual random. They will see a series of coin flips, HHHHHHTHHTTTTTTH, and say "not random, can't be!" And they are wrong. They demand something like HTHTHHTTHTHTT.

16384
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 27, 2012, 06:57:58 pm »
I'm really curious now - how do people play engine decks/shuffle them when they are finished with a turn?  Just scoop em on up?  Do you throw down the handful of victory cards prior to doing the scoop, or do you discard them and then do the scoop?  Can't you manipulate the way you scoop to influence the outcome of your deck to the same extent as ordering your deck? 

Does any of this change if the intent is to avoid the non-random clumps as opposed to ordering the cards for a better turn?

You can't manipulate anything. You MUST shuffle enough so that it doesn't matter what order the cards went into the discard. Do the cool bridge shuffle 7 times. Make the cards into a "Go Fish" fishy pond. Offer your neighbor a cut. Why is this so confusing?

16385
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Idea: Trash Collector
« on: February 26, 2012, 10:24:14 pm »
The first part is probably very, very weak. I can't imagine it occurring all that often that you have three differently named cards in hand that you don't mind trashing. You would have to have Trash Collector/Estate/Copper/Curse/Something, really, or draw those somehow. Not all that great, especially for $5.

The second part, however, strikes me as super strong, depending on how many cards we are talking about drawing. The curse into Gold thing is okay, but re-ordering the next 10 cards of your deck would be pretty powerful, I bet. I doubt you could make it 10. It has to be more than 5, though, or else were talking about something probably worse than Cartographer.

Interesting concept, although I think the re-ordering some amount of cards power is actually stronger than the Curse into Gold power.

What about something like this:

Trash Collector -- $5

Choose one: Trash a Curse from your hand. If you do, gain a Gold; or, look at the next 5 cards in your deck. You may reveal a Curse from among these cards. If you do, trash it. Put the other cards back on top of your deck in any order.


16386
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Shuffle Definition
« on: February 26, 2012, 08:49:21 pm »
I would say that every player is required to shuffle his or her deck thoroughly enough so that it doesn't matter how you ordered your discard pile.

16387
Game Reports / Re: A rock-paper-scissors board?
« on: February 24, 2012, 09:44:42 pm »
Just a guess, but maybe start Masquerade/Silver? That way, your opponent has to try Courtyard/Big Money if he wants to beat you, and if he does, you could start buying IGGs to mess with him. Very interesting situation.

16388
Council Room Feedback / Re: Expansion Data
« on: February 24, 2012, 03:32:49 pm »
Effect with of -42 is unreasonably insane.  Sorry.  I screwed up the pop buys page when I removed the smoothing.

I don't know, it might not be insane. I ALWAYS veto Goons. Consequently, I rarely play with it, and I am absolutely terrible when it is in play.

16389
Council Room Feedback / Re: Expansion Data
« on: February 24, 2012, 03:13:23 pm »
Prosperity   2.51   1.19   0.51%
Seaside      2.22   1.19   0.10%
Dominion   2.21   1.19   -0.04%
Intrigue   2.09   1.18   -0.44%
Cornucopia   0.33   1.16   -2.08%
Alchemy      0.32   1.26   6.01%
Promotional   0.23   1.19   -0.18%
Hinterlands   0.10   0.99   -16.50%


I am dumbfounded.

You are almost as bad with Hinterlands as I am with/without Goons.

Goons Effect With: -2.36 Effect Without: -42.61

16390
Council Room Feedback / Re: Expansion Data
« on: February 24, 2012, 02:34:38 pm »
That's a cool feature. Apparently I'm great with Cornucopia, which is news to me, because I couldn't win with Tournament if my life depended on it.

I'm also good with Seaside and Intrigue, which makes sense because those were the physical sets I owned the longest. And I'm terrible with Alchemy, which is obvious.

But Cornucopia!? Who knew...

16391
Dominion General Discussion / Re: The best 2-card combo
« on: February 23, 2012, 07:31:51 pm »
I nominate Copper and Estate
I did a bit of research in Council Room, and poured over masses of logs, and we all know how important the early turns are to get momentum!
And the one thing all these top players have in thier decks around 4 and 5 are Coppers and estates! I didnt bother looking at the earlier turns,because they had so many of each of these they must have picked them up right near the beggining. Im surprised not to see it at the top of the Level 7 openings to be honest

You know, I think this combo loses nearly as often as it wins.

16392
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Hidden Village: an after-the-fact village
« on: February 21, 2012, 09:58:29 pm »
I love the idea behind this card. Happy to have contributed the name :)

16393
Dominion General Discussion / Re: The best 2-card combo
« on: February 21, 2012, 08:58:52 pm »
I nominate Vault + Grand Market. Grand Market is so powerful, and Vault successfully navigates its inconvenient cost. Every time you start your turn with Vault in hand (unless you were attacked), you can buy a Grand Market.

I nominate Nobles + Crossroads. Allows for ridiculous draws and lets you play Nobles for cards more often.

16394
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Help for Beginners
« on: February 21, 2012, 04:43:44 pm »
Sets with other Green cards--Fairgrounds, Silk Road, Gardens, Nobles, Duke, especially--often lead to atypical, but very fun, games.

16395
One thing it took me a while to figure out:

If you're going to end up taking all (most) of the Curses anyway, just take them. The quicker you empty the pile the quicker you can get on with not being tortured 4 times every turn.

Forgive my ignorance (I'm pretty new to Dominion), but if your opponent played a Torturer, and all the Curses were gone, wouldn't you *have* to discard if you had 2 or more cards in your hand?  My understanding was that when you're supposed to do something, you do "all you can."  So the Torturer gives you a choice: you can take a Curse or discard two cards.  I take that to mean that if there are no Curses to take, you must discard two cards, and conversely, if you have 0 or 1 cards in your hand, you must take a Curse.   The only way to be unaffected by a Torturer is to have <2 cards in your hand AND to have all the Curses gone.

Am I wrong?

In fact, you are wrong. You may still *choose* to take a Curse when there are none left. You do not have to discard two cards. That would be horrible!

16396
Dominion Articles / Re: Reasons for the 1st-player vs 2nd-player advantage
« on: February 20, 2012, 03:21:13 am »
Don't mean to sidetrack the argument going on, but I was trying to come up with other cards that benefit second player, since most people seem to agree they are rarer.

Embargo. As second player, you have a good chance of knowing your opponent's strategy, and you may be able to disrupt his purchase of a key card. The most obvious situation is when first player opens Potion, seeking Alchemist, or Scrying Pool, or Familiar.

City. Though racking up key cards benefits first player--because first player has a better shot at the 6-4 split--City mitigates this sort of, because second player gets the first upgraded City turn if they split unevenly. And second player can always choose not to buy the last one, and deny first player the first upgraded City turn. So I would say that it is better for second player, at least relative to other cards where you and your opponent race to get all of them.

16397
Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

That is a really nice way to realize it! Very cool. I think the card would actually be very strong with certain drawers. For example, imagine playing an Embassy and drawing this card (pretty likely since there are 9 to choose from): nearly guaranteed to go on to draw your entire deck if your deck composition is good.

You should call it "Hidden Village."

16398
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« on: February 16, 2012, 01:39:56 pm »
We should be allowed to change our votes in this poll.


http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120213-150351-a0e5b7d5.html

   --- O's turn 7 ---
   O plays 3 Coppers and a Cache.
   O buys a Cache.
   ... gaining 2 Coppers.
   (O reshuffles.)
   (O draws: a Counting House and 4 Coppers.)

--- O's turn 11 ---
   O plays a Native Village.
   ... getting +2 actions.
   ... drawing a card and placing it on the Native Village mat.
   O plays a Copper and 3 Caches.
   O buys a Province.
   (O reshuffles.)
   (O draws: 4 Coppers and a Counting House.)
-------

The two times I saw the card in the entire game; I bought turn 4. The odd walled village buy was to try and manipulate reshuffles.. didn't help.

Ugh. I feel like that always happens to me, too. I mean, I practically never buy Counting House. The least the card could do is not show up immediately after the reshuffle on the off-chance I did buy it. Really, Counting House should have some clause that if you draw it when there are no Coppers in your discard, you can shuffle it back into your deck, or something.

16399
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What is your favorite Dominion Downer?
« on: February 15, 2012, 10:04:24 pm »
Also... opponent breaking PPR when they don't have to, and winning!

16400
Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: Cartographer/Tunnel
« on: February 15, 2012, 09:57:38 pm »
So the game might mean nothing, it was just the reason I listed Harvest as a good addition to Cartographer/Tunnel.

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