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Messages - cascadestyler

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51
This is a classic groupthink kingdom. If three players go engine and one goes rush, then the rush player loses badly. If three players go rush and one goes engine, then the engine player loses badly. There's a lot more depth than that once you get going, as there's the beuracrat option on the rush and the possibility of using the many buys of festival to pivot the engine to gardens (the best option against a BM/Witch player if nobody rushes) that are all very dependent on what other players do. I'd want to go last.

This is almost the opposite of the case. The rush / slog deck is hoping everyone else goes for Witch attacking, which the engine would certainly be doing immediately. Three players rushing would definitely hurt the only player going for Witch / engine though. In no game here do I see Bureaucrat as a particularly compelling choice, though. And you absolutely don’t want to go last; turn advantage is way bigger than the Rock Paper Scissors effect of different strategies.

Surely if three people go for the rush then the game will end so fast that the engine player won't have got going properly yet.

52
This is a classic groupthink kingdom. If three players go engine and one goes rush, then the rush player loses badly. If three players go rush and one goes engine, then the engine player loses badly. There's a lot more depth than that once you get going, as there's the beuracrat option on the rush and the possibility of using the many buys of festival to pivot the engine to gardens (the best option against a BM/Witch player if nobody rushes) that are all very dependent on what other players do. I'd want to go last.

53
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Best Uninteresting Moments in Dominion
« on: January 28, 2018, 06:12:40 pm »
Me: <buys the first province on a board with Mountain Pass>

Him: <after bidding 40> Did you read Mountain pass?

Me: yes. surprised you bid 40.

Him: lol, why wouldn't I?

needless to say, he found out soon enough.

Twist: it was a Governor game.

I actually did bid 40 in a governor game. My opponent openly mocked me in the chat. Then I won handily. It was uninteresting.

54
Cursed Village / Torturer

Cursed Village / Torturer engines really don't do that much because CV is a superlative counter to discard attacks (probably the best).

Counter: This isn't really an antisynergy because any draw-to-X counters any discard attack - we knew this already.

Counter to the counter: This is a special case because CV is something you could use to build a torturer engine. Library might be a good defence against torturer chains but it won't let you play any yourself. Nobody builds a library / torturer deck. But because CV is a ruddy good village, it's a good candidate for building a torturer chain, and also a superb way to defend against one. For me, this counts as an AaPHCA-S.

Also I hexed myself war which trashed one of the two torturers I had and that's not an AaPHCA-S, just a risk of using CV, but it did anger me somewhat.

55
The problem isn't the analogy, the problem is that Ruined Market is still going to hurt your deck more often than it helps, and it hurts a lot when it does. So Seaway isn't amazing just because there's an edge case where you want to buy Ruined Market.

That makes sense. Maybe I just hugely overestimate the usefulness of ruined market.

56
I really don’t like the “Ruined market plus Lost City” analogy at all. While all of these card effect analogies are really stupid, at least call it like, a Market Square, instead of something that weirdly implies that Seaway helps you cycle or gives actions or something.

Seaway helps you cycle exactly as much as getting a lost city and ruined market together does, which is to say not at all (bar from the card you gain with it, which was also included in my comparison).

I know it's odd, but my point was to compare seaway and ruined market, and the difference between them is lost city and whatever card you gain with the seaway.

I agree that a simpler way to explain seaway is as giving you a free market square sans reaction with your chosen card, but a market square sans reaction is the same as a lost city and a ruined market that always turn up together,  and the latter explanation allows for the direct comparison with ruined market.

Obviously tons of things change these equivalences, like TfB and things like vagrant or WoW that care about types and cost for draw, and pileout considerations are different etc etc, but I think people understand that what's being considered is the on-play action effects of the cards for your hand and action/coin/buy pools, for which, for instance, SeawayedPoacher = Poacher + Market Square = Lost City + Ruined Market + Poacher

57
True. "Better than a ruin" is not a huge endorsement. But the ruins list is pretty clear that sometimes you want to buy ruined market. Seaway is RM + Lost City + $4 card. So anytime you want RM (~30% of the time), Seaway is incredible, superb, a must. I think that puts it above most events, as that's far from its only functionality.

Plan also seems low at #9. It's obscene on 3/4 openings, trashes earlier than almost anything else, and plays well with almost anything bar donate.

58
How can we all go so mad about Ruined Market then rank Seaway down at 21!? One seaway buy is like getting $4-cost with a free ruined market and lost city for $5 and 1 buy rather than $9, 3 buys, and a one-shot lab to your opponent!! Then you can get more at $4 a pop!

On boards with other +buy it's very often a solid buy anyway, which can't be said for RM. You can pick up that +buy without diverting from your build, and you can put on mad pile pressure in situations in which it would otherwise require sacrificing something else.

It's irrelevant in games with one solid $5+-card race such as rebuild, governor, grand market, or goons, but so are most things in those games.

59
The problem with Followers is that, though a strong card in its own right (it would surely cost $7+ in the supply), it has a huge antisynergy with Tournament.

But it forces that antisynergy onto the opponent as well with its junking and handsize attack. I do find myself in situations where I really don't want it sometimes, but you can't be too hipster and always insist on skipping Followers.

Handsize attacks don't make it harder to fire Tournament though. Junking does, but you junk yourself too. The VP swing isn't too helpful unless you're on a very sloggy board where tournament isn't as powerful and terminal draw sucks.

It can if the person being attacked has either Province of Tournament in hand but not the other. Keeping Province increases the risk of stall, and keeping Tournament risks having them get blocked and having a completely dead turn.

In the presence of trashing, the player with Followers has a slightly easier time trashing the Followers junk thanks to having the +2 cards off Followers and not starting with a 3-card hand.

The VP swing might not always matter, but sometime you might end up slacking on proper engine building to actually get the prize you want first. Getting a bunch of Tournaments is not equivalent to having an engine, especially if the Tournaments start getting blocked. At that point, you have something of a slog.

If you have T but not P in hand when the attack hits, then in most cases you are going to keep T, and whether or not your draw kicks off will be the main determiner of whether you get the P, which would still be the case with 5 cards. If you have P but not T, then you may well discard the P for kickoff and then draw a T, or keep the P but then not kick off and not draw the T, so it is a bit more of a problem there, but I do not think it is that much of a hindrance anymore than discard attacks normally are.

Do not get me wrong here: I am not arguing that Followers is not a great card and is not a good prize to go for in a lot of situations, I just think that the fact that it is a prize weakens it more than the same fact weakens any of the other prizes except for BoG, and I think that means it is not the best prize to aim for first in as many scenarios as is often argued.

At the point you get the first prize, you are either already in a super-trim state and lined up your T and P because of that, in which case you probably want Princess, or you lined up by volume of Ts in what will then be a slightly messy cantrippy deck that you haven't transitioned into an engine yet, in which case terminal draw is nails for you, the self-junking kills your transition to engine, and you really would prefer Trusty Steed to help you transition to engine. The latter situation is probably better for Followers, as the long, junky game you will then get makes the VP advantage it gives more potent, but your opponent will then probably get Trusty Steed and may well be able to cycle faster and deal with his curses better than you can deal with your estates. That is the other big drawback of Followers compared with Princess. When Princess is good, the consolation prize your opponent gets is a Trusty Steed they don't really need or a Followers you can deal with. When Followers is good, the consolation prize is a Trusty Steed that will be nearly as good as Followers.

60
The problem with Followers is that, though a strong card in its own right (it would surely cost $7+ in the supply), it has a huge antisynergy with Tournament.

But it forces that antisynergy onto the opponent as well with its junking and handsize attack. I do find myself in situations where I really don't want it sometimes, but you can't be too hipster and always insist on skipping Followers.

Handsize attacks don't make it harder to fire Tournament though. Junking does, but you junk yourself too. The VP swing isn't too helpful unless you're on a very sloggy board where tournament isn't as powerful and terminal draw sucks.

61
The problem with Followers is that, though a strong card in its own right (it would surely cost $7+ in the supply), it has a huge antisynergy with Tournament.

62
Lookout has an often-missed ability to greatly decrease the chance that your other opening buy will miss the shuffle. If lookout turns up T3 then it "rescues" the other buy from skipping if it were going to do so. That, my rough mental calculations suggest, nearly halves the chance of a ruinous first shuffle. If the other card is something epic like Amb, Masq, Steward, Tournament, Spice Merchant, etc then this is a huge plus.

When you play Lookout on turn 3 and your other opening buy is Tournament or Masquerade like you suggested, then playing this card turn 4 will trigger a shuffle which is not the greatest thing because Tournament and your buy on turn 4 (which might very well be a $5er) will miss the shuffle. It's even worse with Page.

Ah yes. A fair point. Maybe this is not as helpful as I'd thought. I'd say skipping the 2nd shuffle is better than skipping the 1st, but I have no idea how the probabilities work out so I'm going to say my comment should be limited to non-drawing openers like Amb, Steward  (for trashing), Militia/Cutpurse, Remake, Forager, etc

63
Lookout has an often-missed ability to greatly decrease the chance that your other opening buy will miss the shuffle. If lookout turns up T3 then it "rescues" the other buy from skipping if it were going to do so. That, my rough mental calculations suggest, nearly halves the chance of a ruinous first shuffle. If the other card is something epic like Amb, Masq, Steward, Tournament, Spice Merchant, etc then this is a huge plus.

64
I can't belive Watchtower and particularly Lookout are this low. Watchtower is situational but where powerful it's absolutely monstrous. Top-decking gains then drawing them and more with the same card is incredible, and seems possible way more than I initially expected. It's also a great counter to junking and discard attacks! So much use!

Lookout is the other kind of good in which it has one use and reliably does it all the time. I'll almost never skip lookout. Obviously donate makes it redundant, and maybe chapel does too, but its non-terminal nature means pairing it with ambassador/masquerade/steward is useful, whereas those three don't play nice a lot of the time. Lookout/Ambassador is a devastating opening. The only reason I skip lookout is donate/chapel or some mad rush game. For me, lookout is #3 and shares the "S-tier" with ambassador and masquerade.

Disclaimer: I'm normally ranked 300-500 so what do I know? :p

65
Peasant should be higher than Chapel. Page should be lower than Stonemason.

I agree with both of these points. Might have made a difference that I do so if I hadn't forgotten to mark my rankings as "finished". Ah well, I'll have to wait for next year to have a measurable impact upon the dominion community :( :p

66
It is a larger consideration, but you don't buy Leprechaun until you can do that consistently. You start the game with Magic Lamp in your deck.
Do you not? $3 looks like a good price for a card that gives you early Golds in exchange for getting Hexed a bit. Leprechaun/Night Watchman, for example, looks like it would be a strong opening.

The problem is that you don't want to get Hexed and you don't really want too many Golds either, and Leprechaun itself is a terminal stop that doesn't give you any money.

In an Encampment/Bridge Troll game I just played, both of us opened Leprechaun and it seemed like it was probably the best strategy (I went Lep/Sage and they went Lep/Bonfire - not sure which was better but my Sage seemed to really help get the Lep gold in hand with Encampments early and I won so there's that), but I haven't seen any other board where an early Lep seems sensible, and obviously Encampment is a very extreme edge-case for valuing an early gold much, much higher than normal.

67
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Christmas Kingdoms 2017
« on: December 29, 2017, 07:18:33 pm »
This fixes Socks:



That is ruddy terrifying

68
Masterpiece / Annex

A weak card and a weak event combine for some serious points as long as you have two buys. One point per coin (plus a little bit of debt) is incredible value in a province game, and you never need more than two buys.

would someone explain this to me? 
why are you filling your deck with silver, and what cards are you shuffling into your deck and why?

I absolutely meant Triumph, not Annex. Sorry for the confusion.

69
Masterpiece / Triumph

A weak card and a weak event combine for some serious points as long as you have two buys. One point per coin (plus a little bit of debt) is incredible value in a province game, and you never need more than two buys.
EDITED: I originally said Annex instead of Triumph by accident. Also apparently Triumph is generally not considered weak. I haven't played with it all that much and it seemed weak in the games in which I saw it, but of course it will always depend on the board.

70
Rules Questions / Re: treasure hunter "gained cards"
« on: November 11, 2017, 12:45:01 am »
It was a while back, and my memory is that it was only correct if TH was counting exchanges as gains. But I didn't look into it at the time so now there's no way I can be certain. I'll scrutinise it next time I play a Page Line.

71
Dominion: Nocturne Previews / Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« on: November 11, 2017, 12:42:40 am »
The definition of synergy being floated by many here is being called arbitrary by many others. It is not. A good definition of synergy is:

X and Y have synergy iff Strength of (X + Y) > Strength of X + Strength of Y.

72
Rules Questions / Re: treasure hunter "gained cards"
« on: November 10, 2017, 03:06:13 pm »
I have had this happen in more than one game. It resulted in six silver from TH once.

73
Groundskeeper + Vineyards

The more groundskeepers you have, the more points your vineyards are worth; the more groundskeepers you play, the more points you bag for each vineyards buy.

I just played a game where my deck was 5 cities (L3), 3 Familiars, 2 Golds, Potion, and Chapel so produced $11P with 6 buys. I started buying 1 Vineyards and 2 Groundskeepers per turn. My opponent had already started greening a more conventional engine on Colonies with the odd vineyards when his Potion came round, and my VP accretion seemed poor at first, but it got more and more powerful every turn, especially when I switched the two Groundskeepers for five Chapels on the final turn. I did not expect it to turn out so well.

74
Cultist / Counterfeit

Counterfeit - clear out the Coppers, yay! But ... in a typical Cultist/Ruins battle, Coppers can be decent. In other words, a deck of 4 Cultists, a Counterfeit, 3 Estates, 4 to 6 Ruins, like 1 or 2 Silvers, and nothing else just stinks. A few Coppers can actually make it better.

I feel like Counterfeit can be worth it in that by making your deck smaller, you can chain more Cultists early to win the Ruins split. But I'm just not convinced this is actually a thing - i.e. I might rather that Counterfeit just be, say, another Cultist.

A non-terminal trasher (like Counterfiet) is about the best thing you can put in a cultist deck. If you actually had that deck you described with just 1 silver then it would suck, but why on earth would you ever get rid of all your copper and only replace it with one silver? Chances are you have two silvers if you were opening towards a cultish rush anyway, and you'd pick up a 2nd one at some point in your cultish rush by default anyway. The deck you've described with 2 silvers sounds awesome. That's going to draw itself every turn without fail, hand out 4 ruins a go, produce $7 on it's first cycle and buy a gold, the depending on whether there's any virtual money or handy kingdom treasure like relic you'll transition through that or through a bit more gold into a lovely reliable province-buying deck that destroys your opponent.

75
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Masquerade
« on: October 11, 2017, 07:22:01 am »
I really wouldn't worry too much about having to pass a good card. The passing is the least important part of the card. The trashing and drawing are way more critical, and the passing is sort of an extra that you have to bear in mind, but should never drive your play of the card. I have built engines with masq as the only draw and only trash before, and they work in some cases. Masq/Festival is fine as long as you just really think about what you're doing and play *slowly*. It's not like a Village/Smithy engine where you just whack through your villages then your smithies down to +1 action then any more villages you've drawn etc etc then play money and buy green. You have to be very careful because of the passing, but you absolutely can do it if you're careful, as the mandatory pass just really isn't that much of a deal.

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