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Messages - SpaceAnemone

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3151
Do people really think scum tries to bus instead of defend their partners when there are only 2 of them?

From over here, it's certain that they do! And I think if you're looking at that section of the game, then Robz's actions come off the worst. He goes from me, where he's sat while being awol for most of D2, tries you, then Andrew (i.e. two probably-higher-value targets than me in terms of game experience) before briefly settling on Dylan at #559 and flitting off again at #575, coming back only to hammer when the Dylan wagon's too big to stop.


3152
vote: SA

Will switch to Joseph by deadline if necessary

Where did your "Space or Robz" thing from a little while ago go? Have you just decided Robz is town now?

3153
vote: SA

Will switch to Joseph by deadline if necessary

Vote: Robz

3154
Back now. Re-reading things, commenting more shortly.

3155
On timings, the 6pm forum-time deadline is 11pm for me, and I'm pretty booked up between now and then. I leave work at 18.45ish to grab a quick dinner with friends before our choir rehearsal 19.30-21.30, and those are intense enough activities that I won't even be following along on my phone. If I skip the choir social, I should be able to get home around 22.00, and definitely online again by 22.30. In the meantime, before I leave work, I'm more likely to be dipping into the forum while I wait for batch processing jobs to finish, though work is actually pretty full-on just now.

3156
You said you don't know which person to go for between Robz and Andrew, but you don't seem to be making any effort, either now or earlier, and that worries me. You've engaged far less with everything all the way through than I have, even though I've been quite explicit about intended VLAs and connection issues I was having. From my point of view, if I'm going to believe gkreig that lynching you is a bad idea, you need to start saying more things to show that you're actually considering the different ways in which the two of them come across as scum, and not just waiting for gkrieg to lead us into a lynch on one or other while keeping quiet because you know that building a decent case on anyone might reveal that you already know who the scum is and it isn't any of the rest of us.

The bolded part is pretty much exactly what I said about SA earlier, and now they're changing their tune:

SA and Dylan "townread" eachother the first couple days, which to me seems weird but it could totally be a scum tactic planned out ahead of time to make us not see them as partners. SA was also overreacting like crazy when they were at L-1, and still complains about me putting them to L-1 and leaving my vote there. SA has also said multiple times that they wouldn't have a problem sheeping gkrieg, which I REALLY don't like. Not because of gkrieg, but rather the whole idea of blindly sheeping the IC seems designed to garner towncred and is kind of a cop out for not following through on reads by placing a vote down. So there it is. That's what I've been observing from SA for a while.

Look, I'm just not going to be goaded into putting votes out there at random when there are two people I scumread and only one scum: that's got a high chance of ending badly when it's so clear that there are also other townies who're in a similarly uncertain position. I'm also still happy to sheep gkrieg and lynch you. I'm most definitely not playing a blind game of follow-the-IC! By all means consider this my intent to hammer, though.

My concern at the moment is that I want to be prepared for the chance you're not the scum, at which point the most likely scenario is me being at lylo with Robz and Joseph, so it's most definitely worthwhile to push Joseph now, since I'd rather have his evidence considered while we still have our IC here to help process it.

3157

oh another thing
I always defend Jake and he flips scum, so maybe if I don't defend him he will flip town?
you uh weren't in any of jake's three scum games

hmm.  That is interesting.  Maybe I was just in the speccy thinking he is town when he flipped scum.
I doubt it because my first game as scum (my first game in general) M87 the town figured out I was scum like 1/4 of the way through D1 so I doubt that this applies there, my next scum game M94 was impossible for this to be true because it was a flawless scum win so no flips, ZM23 was almost the same as M87 where by the end of D1 all three scum were trying to bus each other (to no avail) so I doubt it was true there so where does this apply?
I mean thanks for defending me but  that was just bad.

Yeah, I agree with Jake that it looks bad, especially because schadd has already mentioned checking the speccies. It's an odd pattern of defending and scum-reading, though, since Jake's not really the strongest player for a scum to want to buddy.

3158
So gkrieg wants to lynch Andrew, Andrew wants to lynch Joseph, Joseph wants to lynch me, I want to lynch Joseph... and Space wants to lynch me.
Joseph wants to lynch Robz or Andrew, I'm not 100% sure which one

I have a lot of sympathy for the "busy town player" angle, but not when it risks losing us the game if you really are town. You're not saying anything about why/when you're going to be unavailable and so disengaged, so it's getting harder and harder to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I suggest that if you don't want my scumread on you to grow very quickly over the next 24 hours (bearing in mind that 2/5 players are already saying they support your lynch), you post a reasoned case on Andrew. I'm being prescriptive there because I don't want you to be hiding behind a layer of indecision on who to pick, and because your vote appears to be on Robz even though you say you don't know who to go for, so clearly your scumread on Andrew must have grown more recently if your current statement of indecision genuine.
Was this aimed at Robz or me?
Because I feel like we're both very inactive in this game.

You, totally!

You said you don't know which person to go for between Robz and Andrew, but you don't seem to be making any effort, either now or earlier, and that worries me. You've engaged far less with everything all the way through than I have, even though I've been quite explicit about intended VLAs and connection issues I was having. From my point of view, if I'm going to believe gkreig that lynching you is a bad idea, you need to start saying more things to show that you're actually considering the different ways in which the two of them come across as scum, and not just waiting for gkrieg to lead us into a lynch on one or other while keeping quiet because you know that building a decent case on anyone might reveal that you already know who the scum is and it isn't any of the rest of us.

3159
but I think you're saying you're all set to scumread me if I'm not actually Calamitas.
uh, no, this is not in fact my plan

Okay, good!

Vote: e

3160
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM41: Gravity Falls Mafia (Day 1)
« on: April 09, 2017, 07:15:50 pm »
Very sorry for not posting today :-( I'm afraid I've rather lost track of this game for the moment... really sorry! I'll try to get my head back in gear tomorrow if there's time.

PPE: yeah, JR's right about me not being here enough.. sorry again!!

More PPEs: I just want to post this now!

3161
there's sort of a question of whether it's a good idea for town to refute people's reasons for townreading them. it's been true as long as there's been rhetoric that appearing uninvested in whether good things happen to you is a great way to get good things to happen to you (see: augustus) but, like, i could have just let you townread me, which would be all well and good (and i think the point you used to do so is the sort of point you find to be most reliable. but that might just be because i kind of think of you and calamitas as the same person). sometimes you can use it to scumhunt as well (for example, in my first game on MS, a scummo hard townread me for something silly i said in RVS and a secret other reason he didn't want to publicize; i was thusly pocketed like a social security card in the rain) but i think it is rather reasonable to make that assessment if you don't meta-dive as often as i do. plus, changing one's read based on changes in information rather than changes in circumstance is rather townie to begin with

My following of this paragraph is a bit tenuous, but I think you're saying you're all set to scumread me if I'm not actually Calamitas. Unfortunately for my standing in this game, but probably very fortunately for many other reasons, I'm actually not Calamitas. TBH, I think if him as a mini-silverspawn. They both have nice orderly brains I can see my way round, though... unlike certain other players here ;-)

In all seriousness, I'd just somehow forgotten about the e situation with the Jake-scumminess when I was thinking both about him and about you in my re-read, because when I read the relevant parts, I pushed it onto the heap as a thing that would be good to follow through on once I'd answered whatever was currently at the top of the pile, and then forgotten about it.

3162
So gkrieg wants to lynch Andrew, Andrew wants to lynch Joseph, Joseph wants to lynch me, I want to lynch Joseph... and Space wants to lynch me.
Joseph wants to lynch Robz or Andrew, I'm not 100% sure which one

I have a lot of sympathy for the "busy town player" angle, but not when it risks losing us the game if you really are town. You're not saying anything about why/when you're going to be unavailable and so disengaged, so it's getting harder and harder to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I suggest that if you don't want my scumread on you to grow very quickly over the next 24 hours (bearing in mind that 2/5 players are already saying they support your lynch), you post a reasoned case on Andrew. I'm being prescriptive there because I don't want you to be hiding behind a layer of indecision on who to pick, and because your vote appears to be on Robz even though you say you don't know who to go for, so clearly your scumread on Andrew must have grown more recently if your current statement of indecision genuine.

3163

oh another thing
I always defend Jake and he flips scum, so maybe if I don't defend him he will flip town?
you uh weren't in any of jake's three scum games
Maybe he oh idk READ ONE.
that's not what is implied by the word "defend." you can't defend people if you are reading a game (and i looked at the speccies, where he didn't defend jake either)

Darn it.. the only reason I'm not voting for you right now is that I forgot to attach a vote to my reads post, where clearly you were approximately my highest scum read an hour ago, and now you pull out a towny thing. It's a good point that e should probably address, if it is indeed true that they've not both been town in the same game. Going as far as checking the QTs attached to the games is something I had considered in a "naah, that's way too time consuming" sort of way.

In other news, why have " and @ swapped places on my keyboard all of a sudden? This is worrying and disconcerting.

unvote, since Awaclus is clearly not the best place for my vote to be just now.

3164
Also, Space, sorry for voting you on your birthday! Worst gift ever!

Also just remembered about this while looking for the other thing :-) No hard feelings... you'd've had to do something several orders of magnitude worse to bring my awesome day down even a teeny tiny bit :-P

3165
Doesn't this contradict your attitude to my suggestions earlier?

Sorry TWM! Completely wasn't paying attention to this earlier... I'll go back and try to work out which thing you're talking about now.

Actually, it would be really helpful if you could point me at what you mean with a post number or a quote. Sorry if I'm just being dozy :-(

3166
Doesn't this contradict your attitude to my suggestions earlier?

Sorry TWM! Completely wasn't paying attention to this earlier... I'll go back and try to work out which thing you're talking about now.

3167
With apologies to Awaclus for disagreeing on what's generally good collaborative play, here's where I'm at with everything so far, based on reading things this evening:

kkrieg (13 game posts) -- inexperienced, but putting reads out there. No red lights yet, and didn't flail or get defensive when LL voted for her, which is a sort of cool that's tough to fake. Probable town, though I acknowledge a built-in bias where I'd rather keep newbies in a newbie game at least past D1.

LL (50 game posts) -- more prolific than I'd realised. Seems like his helpful self in terms of trying to diffuse RR's joke in a contained way. I think the brief kkrieg vote was townie.

Awaclus (13 game posts) -- is very Awaclus. His playstyle gives very little away in terms of leaving room for scumslips, but the fact he's been talking in paragraphs occasionally is encouraging. Town side of the heap.

Space (19 game posts) -- spaaaaaaace :-)

TWM (47 game posts) -- engaging a lot. Seems to have a thing against schadd that extends into meta rather than scumreads maybe? Also seems to be pretty conscious of how he's seen (e.g. at #208), which is something I'm scumread for from time to time, but he seems to be doing okay with it. What were his previous games? Background reading/revision is in order if he's actually a ninja scum player, because he's giving off a pretty townie vibe to me.

IDP/e (3 posts from e, 17 from IDP) -- leaning townish for meta reasons, though I think schadd's narrative makes that look more cut-and-dried that it is. Need to keep an eye on e.

Jake (24 game posts) -- Getting a little flustered by votes on him in a way that I think is similar to that recent blitz game, where he was the high-value scum target, but managed to stay under the radar during the majority of the conversation. OTOH, I like that his playstyle has gotten so much better lately, and I tend to scumread people pretty hard for pushing him based on his earlier play, which kind of biases me to the point where he's a nullish read here for now.

schadd (70 game posts) -- dominating the game in terms of posts, though maybe only about 3/4 of them make sense fully. Even then, that's a pretty high level of engagement. He's certainly been saying a lot of helpful stuff that's the kind of thing I'd have posted if I wasn't so distracted by getting older and stuff. Comes off a bit scummier in a targeted re-read, actually. Things like pushing TWM for the use of "probably" and complaining about Jake not responding to something that wasn't initially a question.. unless I'm mis-reading/misunderstanidng schadd there? Mild scum.

RR (25 game posts) -- The joke was not good, now is the fact that immediately afterwards he specifically drew attention to the implications of what might happen with other town PRs he could have outed (#53). I feel like it's well within RR's general meta, but I get so frustrated at that kind of "it was all a joke" play :-(

3168
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM41: Gravity Falls Mafia (Day 1)
« on: April 08, 2017, 08:35:04 pm »
Also Happy Birthday Space!

Thank you! :-) Sorry that birthday has translated to not-really-doing-forum day as well.

Confusing moment of my super-awesome day: my friend got us tickets to a superb London Philharmonic concert this evening, and there's a bit near the end of Mahler 8 where they start singing about Faust. I'm now so used to faust being a mafia player that other meanings are very much secondary :-P

3169
Space's case on Andrew is not convincing me. Gkrieg's is better. I'm not at all convinced of Joseph towniness though.

Yeah, it wasn't much of a case.. I mostly wanted to work out what things it was that he'd been doing that made me want to lynch him so strongly. I possibly should just have kept those in a text buffer rather than posting late at night, since it's become clear that a lot of the stuff that makes me react to Andrew is general attitude rather than alignment-indicative play, but I didn't want to leave the game too long. And I didn't even get to the present day in terms of the reread :-( I'll be back at a computer tomorrow again, though maybe it's not an exercise I really need to complete.

For now, I actually still think I trust me-from-the-other-day who scum-read Robz over Andrew, but I'll vote with gkrieg if it comes down to it.

3170
Just read Space. Hasn't had a single post {please correct me if I am wrong, it is a bit late and I am a bit dopey I will freely admit} that was scum hunting oriented.

Pretty sure that shouldn't be true, but I'm not having an easy time of remembering what was said here versus elsewhere at the moment :-/ Will definitely try to give your a more satisfying response when I'm home again tomorrow (or from work... apparently my free Sunday afternoon may have to be spent in the office after all :-(

3171
if you see someone target someone that doesn't die, they are the doctor. do not out who they are, and claim that day. remember that it gives definitive results once one scum dies.

Whatever you're trying to say here, it got a bit garbled!

If the person you track targets someone who doesn't die, but someone else does die, then the person you tracked is the doctor (in this setup only; that doesn't generalize!).

If the person you track targets someone and nobody dies, then your target could either be the doctor or the scum attempting to make the NK. It would be a superbly bad idea to townread the scum accidentally!

Where were you going with the thing about definitive results? I'm not sure if that's you not making sense or my brain not thinking through enough, given how late it is. I'm 83 minutes into my birthday already. G'night all!

3172
Okay, so this is going to be 10-min exercise in picking out things that make me uncomfortable about Andrew's play, since he's complaining there's no scum narrative for what he's done.

1) Ho opens with a load of nonsense stuff, like voting a non-existent player and voting his one stated townread. That kind of play is really just designed to signal that he's a player we might not get straight answers from, and to me it's a bad first impression.

2) There's also the "I'll be here making stupid comments in the meantime." thing at #83. Weirdly, he seemed to be talking some sense in between. Oh, and then #90: "And NOW I will resume the stupid comments." He's definitely working to establish himself as the type of person who won't let people take things too seriously, and as someone who prefers to take things seriously, he's really ringing my warning bells. None of this is directly scummy. Maybe it just explains some omgus on my part. I did deliberately say I'm looking for things that make me uncomfortable (rather than things that are definitely scum-indicative).

3) #127 -- talks about reading M88, which was covert affairs, and seems to be trying to bait Jake slightly. This is not pro-town.

4) He's making a few slight pushes at Jake. #219 is another one.

5) #252: backs Robz's entirely wrong interpretation of why I was trying to question Jake.

6) #294: still legitimizing Robz's lies about me!

7) #321: Makes up a whole narrative about why I was voting for PPS, which is utterly wrong. This was no case of "here's a scum narrative and here's a town narrative", it was a pure "SA did this set of things and look isn't it scummy" narrative. Votes for me, putting me up to an unannounced L-1.

8 ) #338: Tries to find a load of things to disagree with in what I've been saying. Seems to lose interest when I show that I'm making actual sense, but he doesn't move his vote.

9) #345: This is deliberate taunting! That post felt very annoying, because he's clearly flaunting the fact that he has the power to unvote, but has "chosen" not to pay any attention to my predicament. Then apologises about the L-1 without doing anything about the vote, which very much just rubs it in. The line a few posts later about "Speaking of slow, the line in this museum is ridiculous" (#351) seems designed for much the same effect of showing off about how much he's deliberately ignoring the fact I'm actually worried about being left at L-1. This is definitely not a pleasant or concerned townie way to play.

10) #371: Still deliberately voting.

11) #375: Now we add condescending to the list...

12) #400: partial case on gkrieg.

13) #427: Reacts with a snarky "sure, single me out" response when I ask why nobody was considering Andrew in the question of whether to lynch Robz or Jake. It genuinely seemed like both Dylan and gkrieg had just forgotten about Andrew's existence in their PoE. In Dylan's case, he's engineered his narrative so that he's only talking about the on-wagon set, so neatly gets to leave Andrew off. The fact that Andrew himself didn't see the clear fact that he was missing from any of this could actually be a bit of a scumslip, since in his mind as scum, he'd only be trying to frame people who're actually town.

14) #432: Urgh, why does he keep picking at me in a critical way. It's not like I don't justify every single thing he picks at. It just feels like he's trying to find something to frame me with, having realised that he can make me annoyed and defensive, since I already know I tend to get mislynched more often when I get defensive (but it's a hard habit to break).

15) #484: reads Jake's post as a townslip. This would be easier to do for a scum who knows for sure that Jake is town, since to town it actually doesn't look much like a townslip at all. Even Dylan picked up on that a few posts later.


Anyway, it's been way more than 10 mins, and I really have to go to bed now, so I'll finish this another time if more scumreadable things are required. I'm not going to be posting much tomorrow because I'll be in London restricted to phone posting while doing fun stuff for my birthday :-) Home on Sunday afternoon sometime.

3173
Anyway, I've slightly bitten off more than I can chew in terms of game commitments just now, which is why I'm not so setuppy in this one yet.

I get that there's stuff we can look at since it's a semi-open set-up, but what do we have to gain from looking at it just yet?

There can be really useful strategies that help us out a lot, but aren't really obvious without kicking ideas about the set-up around. I'm very much a collaborative thinker it that sort of respect, so I like it when actual set-up discussions happen :-) Also, even in a non-newbie game, I like to be sure that basic town-favourable play ideas are out there stated in the thread, because it could be useful for less mechanics-driven/less experienced players. I know there's a small chance that it helps scum to see the town exploits, but I've given up worrying about that too much, because in general, scum have multiple brains churning over this stuff and a chance to discuss it all in private anyway, so we stand a better chance if we pool our thinking a bit too, even if we can only do it where they can see.

To make it clearer what I mean, the Worms RMM was a beautiful game that town burned it badly because we couldn't get ourselves together enough to exploit the mechanic I was trying to suggest... annoyingly, one of the big rivalries in that game was me and 2.7, and we were both town! I scumread him really hard for blocking my clever plan :-P With a standard setup like Matrix6, there's not going to be anything as exploitable, and we don't need to do much wheel-reinventing, given that this setup comes from mafiascum.

Anyway, it may especially be the case in a newbie game that it would be helpful for us to toss some ideas out there about how to play the various roles, in general enough terms that the scums can't benefit from knowing, but detailed enough that it's a lot more informative than reading info on mafiascum, since we can tailor it to each of our six possible game configurations. I know the first time I played most roles, I've thought it would be great to have someone to give me a big of guidance... First time being a vig felt like a horrible responsibility, and I wrote so much in my QT to justify my kills, because I was scared the whole of town would feel let down if I did something wrong.

3174
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM41: Gravity Falls Mafia (Day 1)
« on: April 07, 2017, 02:15:15 pm »
I guess I'm only making these points to express frustration, and to express that I don't think it's very justifiable to scumread people who've decided to use RR's weird behaviour as a reason to vote.
You are frustrated with RR? Or with me?

Not you, certainly. Mainly just with the fact that people say silly/"humorous" things and then don't answer direct questions with unambiguous answers in a way that could clear up the uncertainty. This may be a frustration that extends beyond mafia, too ;-)

3175
4. Space: just incredibly hard to read so you're on this list - sorry!!! also feel like because you are such an analytical player you would normally be trying to figure out the scum/helping out town a little more than you are (but I also have never read any past games...)

Aw, you're just like gkrieg! Scumreading me already :-P You know he lynched me in like 3 of my first 4 games or something? He was mod in the other one! Anyway, I've slightly bitten off more than I can chew in terms of game commitments just now, which is why I'm not so setuppy in this one yet. Give me till Sunday evening UK time and I should be able to plug into it a bit better! Day 1 is the toughest day.

In other news, one serious rule that I'm sure gkrieg has already mentioned to you, but it's worth repeating: you're never, ever allowed to talk about things that happen in ongoing games, and it's especially bad to mention them in other games you may be playing in on this site... it gets quite frustrating when you want to scumread someone for something they've said elsewhere in another ongoing game, for example.

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