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101

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Translations

« on: April 20, 2018, 06:24:59 pm »

Looking at the notes I wrote to the Norwegian publisher about Intrigue (which as I mentioned I still haven't checked if they followed), I found the following.

In the section about the three piles to end the game, it was explained as "Treasure, Victory and Action cards". (Of course Curse was missing.) I recommended writing "kingdom cards" instead of "Action cards". Although no Kingdom cards existed that were not either Treasure, Victory or Action, I theorized that in the future there might be some. My theory was actually not confirmed until Nocturne!

Well, the Norwegian Intrigue rulebook now says: «The game ends at the end of a player’s turn if one of these conditions are met: Either that the Province pile is empty, or that three other piles are empty (treasures, victory cards, kingdom cards. curse cards).» The period inside the brackets isn’t a typo on my part, by the way, and is probably there because you reminded them of the curse pile counting for a three-pile ending. This is kind of awkward to read, I think. Extraneous words and a dubious sentence at best. And why did they specify «other» piles? While I guess it’s technically correct (if Province is among the first three piles to empty, the Province pile IS empty, so the game would end either way), it seems unnecessary and out of place, as a reference to three empty piles or an empty Province pile, in that order, mind you, like the English rules say, is both much simpler and much shorter: «The game ends after 3 piles are empty or the Province pile is empty». I think they should’ve removed the brackets altogether. People would understand, I think.

102

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Translations

« on: April 20, 2018, 05:50:41 pm »

At least the Norwegian translations have done a pretty good job with the flavor part - the card names and such. I would say that getting the actual rules right is slightly more important though.

I agree. I’ve commended and applauded them several times for their ability to use flavorful card titles. That was a big reason for my fascination with the game when I first started out. If they would keep off the flavor path for the mechanical game texts on each card, that would’ve been much better, but I’m so happy we have cards like Skarpretter, Renkesmed, Sjarlatan, etc.!

All in all I’m extremely thankful for what Vennerød has done for the game! I’m also thankful for the fact that they listen to their customer base as much as they do. Very sad that they seem to have given up on Dominion, more or less, but I actually think the release of the 2nd edition acted as a nail in their Dominion coffin. They probably need to release those before releasing the other sets (now that the original boxes are as good as obsolete), and that is, of course, very expensive in such a little country with so small print runs. They probably still have a lot of 1st ed. boxes that suddenly became much less attractive. And that could probably kill the company, if it was a little smaller.

Luckily they’re not dependent on Dominion to survive in the industry, but it’s really sad for fans of the game like you and me. It’s so much easier to spread the gospel with Norwegian cards in Norway. In your absence this year, I’ll probably arrange the Norwegian Dominion Championship 2018 at Arcon. Details are not finalized, but I’ve been in contact with Knut about it.

103

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Translations

« on: April 19, 2018, 12:25:49 pm »

Well, I did get the file for Prosperity several years after it was published. I proofread the rulebook and had lots of comments, even suggesting ways of making it better. I was so depressed going through it, that I never even got going for the cards themselves (except for the probably known issues of different fonts, Stash saying "Myntkort" at the bottom, while all the other treasures simply saying "Mynt", all-capital or all-lowercase letters on a host of card titles, differences like "kort på hånden" og "håndkort", etc.), if you discount that I already mentioned the functional error on Biskop.

What did the original Tyv and Park say? My printing of these seem fine (N-22024860), though they're still kind of poorly translated.

There were lots of things I would change, mind you, but I don't think I saw any other functional errors, or I've forgotten all about them (as I don't read the Norwegian cards anymore).

Yeah, I also found many, many things to improve in the Empires rulebook. The good thing is that I got paid for it that time. (With Intrigue it was voluntary.) Maybe next time they'll give me the translation job from scratch, but it seems that they have no more plans for Dominion.

Original Tyv used "may" ("kan") for trashing opponents' Treasures!
Original Park was an Action card (Befalingskort). I assume the translator thought it was simpler if Kingdom cards and Action cards were the same thing. In the rules there was no distinction between the two.

Hahah, I certainly didn’t see those!

I made a quick scan now, and found several other errors that I already mentioned for Vennerød. Seems like my memory failed me. But anyway, your tale is both hilarious and scary.

104

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Translations

« on: April 19, 2018, 11:15:01 am »

So far I've "only" seen two functional errors on the Norwegian cards: The Norwegian "Bishop" ("Biskop") says that you can discard a card for VP token gain. Of course you have to trash it. "Governor" ("Guvernør") suggests that trashing is mandatory if the person playing the card chooses the trashing effect, which of course it isn't.

The first edition of the base game had mistakes on Thief and Gardens. (I told them about Thief and they corrected it. I think they figured out Gardens by themselves.) I did a proofreading of Intrigue before publication, back in 2011, and caught two cards with errors (plus several cards that I thought were unclear). I still haven't seen Norwegian Intrigue, so I don't know how it turned out.

I recently did a proofreading of Empires, so I guess they will publish that at some point. I'm counting 19 cards with clear errors that I corrected. And of course many others that could be improved. I also did this for Dismantle.

I also haven't seen Prosperity, which I was not involved in. I would be surprised if there's only one card with an error. But maybe they got someone else with Dominion knowledge to check it.

Well, I did get the file for Prosperity several years after it was published. I proofread the rulebook and had lots of comments, even suggesting ways of making it better. I was so depressed going through it, that I never even got going for the cards themselves (except for the probably known issues of different fonts, Stash saying "Myntkort" at the bottom, while all the other treasures simply saying "Mynt", all-capital or all-lowercase letters on a host of card titles, differences like "kort på hånden" og "håndkort", etc.), if you discount that I already mentioned the functional error on Biskop.

What did the original Tyv and Park say? My printing of these seem fine (N-22024860), though they're still kind of poorly translated.

There were lots of things I would change, mind you, but I don't think I saw any other functional errors, or I've forgotten all about them (as I don't read the Norwegian cards anymore).

105

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Translations

« on: April 19, 2018, 09:43:42 am »

So what Sidsel posted is what's on the cards (apart from Smithy and Laboratory), they've just been translated incorrectly?

I don't understand what you're asking, sorry.

For example, the Duke card in Norwegian is titled "Greve"?

Yeah, I know this one's really old, but there's a reason "Duke" is translated as "Greve" (which in turn means "Count").

When they translated the basic cards, the correct translation of "Duchy" would be "Hertugdømme". As they elected to translate "Estate" as "Herregård", they felt that two cards that look very much alike shouldn't have the same three letters at the start of the card name. Of course, they would've avoided the problem altogether if they just named "Estate" "Gods".

I was actually afraid they would translate "Duke" correctly as "Hertug", which meant that the reference to "Grevskap" wouldn't be there, so I'm sort of happy with what they ended up doing. I don't think more sets will be translated to Norwegian (only Dominion, Intrigue, Prosperity and the Three promos Stash, Governor and Walled Village have been so far), but if that would change, I'm sure "Count" would be named "Hertug". So far I've "only" seen two functional errors on the Norwegian cards: The Norwegian "Bishop" ("Biskop") says that you can discard a card for VP token gain. Of course you have to trash it. "Governor" ("Guvernør") suggests that trashing is mandatory if the person playing the card chooses the trashing effect, which of course it isn't.

106

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Being sneaky

« on: April 19, 2018, 04:29:55 am »

I'm a former semi-competitive magic player, and so I start by reasonable announcing:

"three, six, eight treasure, buy a province..."

and then because I want the winner to win by skill, not by forgetfulness I continue

"...5 provinces left"

I visibly count low piles too.

I try not to be obnoxious about it, and people don't seem to mind.

That's more or less the same thing I do, except I don't often Count piles. When I do, I announce the amount, though.

107

Dominion General Discussion / Re: A quick Temple tip

« on: April 19, 2018, 04:12:56 am »

But you can divide by arbitrarily small numbers tending down to zero."

Or up to zero, where your result will tend towards minus infinity (meaning it would be infinitely worse than all other Treasure Cards not costing zero). That's the reason you cannot divide by a number tending towards zero without spesifying the direction, and also the reason why dividing by zero would make no sense. Luckily it's prohibited. Remember that the coin cost of Copper is as close to -1 as to 1.

Cards can't cost less than zero, though, so at least in the context of Dominion, 1/0 only gives one answer.

No, it doesn't give an answer, because it's impossible to divide by 0 (and to use your own argument, sort of, we're not having cards with fractions in their cost in Dominion, so the closest we can come is to divide by one, which, of course, doesn't help us immensely).

That being said, an often overlooked fact is that three plays of Copper gives the same net effect as three plays of Silver and three plays of Gold.

Let's say you buy a:

Copper - Cost 0. After one play, you've gained 1 in value. After the second play, you've gained 2, After the third play, you've gained 3.

Silver - Cost 3. After one play, you've lost 1. After the second play, you've gained 1. After the third play, you've gained 3.

Gold - Cost 6. After one play, you've lost 3. After the second play, you haven't lost nor gained anything. After the third play, you've gained 3.

Platinum - Cost 9. After one play, you've lost 4. After the second play, you've gained 1. After the third play, you've gained 6.

In a vacuum, this means that it's not worth it to buy a Silver or a Gold instead of Copper, unless you get to play it at least four times. Platinum is profitable after three Plays, though. With fewer plays, Copper is the best of them. There are always edge-cases, and yes there are a lot of them, especially here. Still, this is something that you should probably know about.

108

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Being sneaky

« on: April 18, 2018, 07:47:28 am »

And you shouldn't, as you think an online game with three participants is excrutiatingly painful (presumably because of the enormous time-consuming nature of it?)

No, it's because of accidental kingmaking. In a 2p game, I can maximize my odds of winning assuming that the other player maximizes their odds of winning as well, which makes for a super interactive competitive environment. In a 3p game, if I try to do the same, what usually happens is that player B plays worse than optimally and then player C wins as a result of that.

Aha, that explains a lot. I thought you didn't like 3+ player Dominion, but you don't like 3+ player card/dice/board games in general (most such games have this chance of accidental kingmaking). If that's the case, you'd probably like RL 2P Dominion. I can only speak for myself, but I love multiplayer games (not least because of the social aspect), and to me Dominion's the best of the lot (not including RPGs). I think 2P Dominion is a bit boring, compared to multiplayer Dominion, but I prefer Dominion at all player counts, to almost any other game.

109

Dominion General Discussion / Re: A quick Temple tip

« on: April 18, 2018, 07:34:39 am »

But you can divide by arbitrarily small numbers tending down to zero."

Or up to zero, where your result will tend towards minus infinity (meaning it would be infinitely worse than all other Treasure Cards not costing zero). That's the reason you cannot divide by a number tending towards zero without spesifying the direction, and also the reason why dividing by zero would make no sense. Luckily it's prohibited. Remember that the coin cost of Copper is as close to -1 as to 1.

110

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Being sneaky

« on: April 18, 2018, 06:48:26 am »

If my wife is busy shuffling, or looking at her cards, or otherwise not paying attention I'll play my turn fast so I can buy a provence or attack card before she notices. She does the same. That's what you get for not paying attention! Do you guys do this IRL games?

I don't do IRL games.

And you shouldn't, as you think an online game with three participants is excrutiatingly painful (presumably because of the enormous time-consuming nature of it?). IRL you wouldn't be able to put all the cards on the table before you fall asleep.

111

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Would you trash an estate worth 2VP?

« on: April 18, 2018, 05:59:54 am »

Just a though experiment...

If your starting estates were worth 2VP would still chapel them? What if they were worth 2.5VP? or 3VP? Obviously it would depend on the board, but in an average game at what point would you not trash them?

I believe that trashing is essentially the same decision as 'not buying'. In a big money game the simulations show that you shouldn't buy a duchy if you are going to draw it more than once. You shouldn't buy an estate if you have more than a 50/50 chance of drawing it. You could set up similar simulations for tunnel quite easily but it will fall into a similar range.

Those stats ignore end game competition, of course.

It’s not the same as not buying, in the sense that, say a province or a duchy are usually competing against some power card during your buy phase. When trashing, they are competing against nothing. It doesn’t seem as clear cut to me.

Also you have to put forth effort to trash them. I bet it's often worth it to trash a Duchy that starts in your deck, but not a Province.

Well, for what it's worth: We used to have an adventure mode where starting with three or more Provinces (while you started with three Estates) didn't seem to help the bot...

112

Dominion General Discussion / Re: A quick Temple tip

« on: April 18, 2018, 05:49:36 am »

You can't divide by zero.

That's a fact.

113

Dominion Articles / Re: Duration Draw and Stop Card Capacity

« on: April 09, 2018, 04:40:25 am »

A "stop card" is any card that doesn't draw a card from your deck, and includes Throne Room variants. For simplicity, this article considers actions a non-issue, so Smithy is not a stop card.
...
With an SCC of 4, you can have up to 4 Bishops (which are stop card) in your deck and still be guaranteed to draw and play them all.
...
Hence, you can now gain a 5th Bishop and still be guaranteed to play all 5 Bishops, eventually overtaking the VP count of a player that can only support playing 4 Bishops a turn.
...
And then there's Wharf, which isn't even a stop card the turn you play it and thus having the same net effect on SCC as Haunted Woods.
...
Province/Colony, Gold/Platinum, Bridge, and Haggler are just a few examples of potentially important stop cards.

Hm... Am I suddenly an idiot? It may look like it, because everyone seems to know what this is all about, yet I feel that I'm in way over my head, here. My IQ is pretty decent, so I should be able to understand this, but I'm really having a hard time getting my head wrapped around this. Maybe it's the language (I'm Norwegian), but I've had no problem understanding or even translating English in the past, even old literature.

If you consider actions non-issues, why do you still state that several action cards are stop cards? There are even more references in your article to actions being stop cards (mainly Duration cards), and I thought they're not considered stop Cards? And how can you guarantee drawing and playing all your four Bishops, if they are the only stop cards in your deck (you've already stated that Smithy isn't a stop card, but a hand of Smithy and four Bishops may at best let you play one Bishop)? Interestingly enough, the stated stop card Throne Room will at least allow you to play two of those Bishops, but you still doesn't get to draw Your deck, nor play all the Bishops.

I probably got my message across several sentences ago, but I wanted to list all the issues I had, in case I've just misunderstood some things, but not everything. Please advice, because I really want to understand this. Seems like really useful advice (and everything becomes much clearer) if you just remove the first quoted paragraph above, but I guess it's there for a reason.

114

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?

« on: April 07, 2018, 04:24:11 pm »

I use them all, but not with the newer sets. With real newbs and/or children, I play with the complete Norwegian collection (Dominion 1st ed., Intrigue 1st ed., Prosperity, Governor, Stash, Walled Village). The card pool is so small that I wouldn’t remove 2/13 of them. When I play with gamers or in my regular Dominion groups, I play with all my English cards, which includes all promos and every set, but only the 2nd ed. versions of Dominion and Intrigue (297 kingdom cards). This allows me to play with all published cards from time to time. At work I play with a third card pool. There we use the 1st editions, but we use the update packs (and we’ve removed the infamous 12).

115

Dominion FAQ / Re: Five or six players?

« on: April 07, 2018, 04:02:58 pm »

To me, and I know I'm not alone, two-player games can be kind of bland, too short and mostly uninteresting. Besides, attacks (which I really love) become too weak in most cases. Multi-player games fix these problems for me and my usual opponents. I know this is subjective, but even though I liked it and you made me smile, your reply wasn't particularly helpful.

Most attacks are about the same strength level at any player count. The exceptions tend to be cards like Jester and Pirate Ship where you can gain something from the attack.

I respectfully disagree. In games were your opponents have one attack card each, facing one of those every round is generally much better than facing five of them, which I’ve seen plenty of times with Torturer, Witch, and the like. Some attacks don’t hurt when you’re attacked several times (e.a. Militia), and some actually help you (e.a. Margrave), but most are bad when you’re attacked several times a turn, and I think that’s how it should be. Of course, this is just my humble opinion, and you may disagree with me. :-)

116

Dominion FAQ / Re: Five or six players?

« on: April 06, 2018, 04:28:05 am »

Has anyone actually purchased the Big Box II? How many Curses and Platinums are included? I assume there are 20 extra Curses and 6 extra Provinces, but I haven't read anything about those. Please advise. Thanks!

I own it. Including the 52 kingdom cards, the set includes the following:

80 Copper
70 Silver
48 Gold
50 Curse
30 Estate
12 Duchy
18 Province

So, no Platinum/Colony, as these are included in the revised Prosperity. I wonder what's included in the coming revised Base Cards set. Will Ruins be included? And what about Heirlooms and Shelters? Heirlooms will probably not be included, as they need their respective Kingdom cards to funtion. Will the added number of basic cards in Big Box II be included as well? I'm assuming a new Trash mat will be included, instead of the Trash card of the original set.

117

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What should Dominion do next?

« on: April 05, 2018, 10:06:25 am »

Some of the hate expressed towards Alchemy that I've heard, is that the expansion is so small it's almost impossible to get two or more different cards with Potion in it's cost when using a fully random method of picking a kingdom. Most of them aren't powerful enough to justify buying a Potion by themselves, luckily.

Um, yes they are. Only Transmute and Philosopher's Stone aren't.

True. I'll modify my claim to: "most of them aren't overpowered enough to dominate boards by themselves, luckily".

I meant that the need for an added currency could potentially make them way too powerful, but I don't think they are. I think they are mostly relevant, but not entirely game-changing seperately, which, I think, is a great thing.

I'm sure DXV could make some more cards with Potion in it's cost to create an even better balance, and hopefully, this will make Alchemy more palatable for a lot of people who don't like it in it's current format. I really like the set, but Possession probably needs to go.

118

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What should Dominion do next?

« on: April 05, 2018, 09:16:36 am »

I know I'm probably in the minority (or maybe I AM the minority), but I'd like a small expansion to complement Alchemy, and yes, I want it to include at least two cards that deal Embargo tokens (I'm sure there are more good uses for these tokens) and one more Traveler.

Rather, just do away with Alchemy as we know it, and make the 2nd ed. version of it a box called "Alchemy & Mysticism" or whatever, containing about 25 kingdom cards (11 of the original 12 Alchemy cards, just remove Possession, and 13-15 new ones). Some of the hate expressed towards Alchemy that I've heard, is that the expansion is so small it's almost impossible to get two or more different cards with Potion in it's cost when using a fully random method of picking a kingdom. Most of them aren't powerful enough to justify buying a Potion by themselves, luckily. I do believe this will help Alchemy immensely, and those who don't like the concept of Potions at all can just ignore it, just like today.

Remember that not all the new cards need to have Potion in it's cost (the Embargo token ones probably shouldn't), but I'd like some more cards that care about such cards or Potion itself, and as long as the new cards are never marketed and sold as a seperate expansion, this will not be a problem for those who only want the new cards. Just make a new Update Pack that states that you need Alchemy to play.

119

Introductions / Re: Chase Adolphson's intro

« on: April 05, 2018, 07:52:08 am »

I think I've encountered two people that didn't like Dominion among the more than 100 I've taught it to.

Gosh! On a regular games evening, if I suggest Dominion, only about a third of people will be interested. Some people will just have some other specific thing in mind to play that evening, but even so about half the people present outright don't like Dominion, or have got bored of it. )-8

(Then again, that's a fairly diverse group. Some of them decline Dominion in order to play Articulate; others decline Dominion in order to play Gaia Project!)

Don't get me wrong. I've encountered some people who doesn't like Dominion (I said "a couple", but the true number is probably around 5-10), but they haven't had the patience to try a lot of different expansions. Unfortunately these people generally don't even want to try it again with more interesting kingdoms. I talked about the people I've taught it to only, when I stated two people didn't like it.

I did a casual count, and I believe I've taught it to between 110 and 130 people. The two who didn't like it thought it was too difficult (a non-gamer) or too repetitive (he's a hard-core gamer and a brother of mine). The people I've taught the game to are everything from non-gamers to real gamers. Age span 4-75. At game nights, where I've suggested Dominion, this has sometimes been downvoted by people who still proclaim that Dominion is their favorite game. Variance is the key here, but that doesn't mean they don't like Dominion. I can probably play it all day long, but I can understand the need to get away from it occassionally, as I don't think we here are representative of the whole gaming community (unfortunately). In fact, it's my observation that for most people, their enjoyment of Dominion rises when they only play it occassionally, so I don't mind too much.

I like to play a lot of different games myself, having played the majority of my 70-or-so games at least once since the summer of 2016, but I've played more than 600 live games of Dominion during the same timeframe. #2? D&D 5th ed. with about 20-30 sessions.

120

Introductions / Re: Chase Adolphson's intro

« on: April 04, 2018, 10:06:35 am »

Hi guys. I never introduced myself so I'm doing it now. Ever since I played my first game of dominion I got really obsessed with it. So far you guys have helped me learn a lot of new strategies and I will probably learn a lot more from you. Thanks! My family and friends don't play dominion that often, so I'm glad to be talking with people that play dominion about 24/7 like I do. Some of my friends even say dominion sucks! CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think games with just the base set are fun because its dominion but its kind of boring at the same time because you miss out on a lot of concepts. I love games with expansions though. Do most people agree with me? I'm just kind of curious. As you have probably noticed I argue a lot and don't give up very easily.

Welcome to the boards!

I think I've encountered two people that didn't like Dominion among the more than 100 I've taught it to. And a couple more that just hasn't played with enough variety (only Base or only Intrigue; both 1st ed.).

Just keep on promoting it! Hopefully you can help enrich a lot of people's lives! I've introduced Dominion at work, and we're at nine current players (and three more that has quit their jobs), playing every lunch break with Dominion, Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands, Dark Ages, Adventures and three promos. Guilds & Cornucopia is soon to be added (just waiting for the updated version). This is fun! 

121

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Transmogrify

« on: April 04, 2018, 09:51:04 am »

Butcher gives you +2 Coffers

FTFY

You're fixing a post that's over two years old.

I know, it was just a pathetic attempt at humor. Please don't take me seriously.

122

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Transmogrify

« on: April 04, 2018, 09:27:16 am »

Butcher gives you +2 Coffers

FTFY

123

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Playing the new Guilds & Cornucopia!

« on: April 04, 2018, 07:43:58 am »

[I updated the wiki]
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.

Liar!

I tried to update the "Second Edition" page once, then Wero the Great modified my post after just a couple of hours, and everything was clearer! He really is Great!

@ werothegreat: Talking about "Second Edition", you can maybe post that "Base Cards" isn't updated yet, and that it will be updated before Alchemy? Just a thought...

124

Dominion League / Re: Season 27 - Signups

« on: March 20, 2018, 12:22:39 pm »

Hi, I’d love to join!

Username: Oyvind
Timezone: Europe/Berlin

125

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Fix the worst cards

« on: March 15, 2018, 09:38:57 pm »

Many nice ideas, man. You should make some fan cards, or even a whole set.

Dude, I did; they were winter holiday themed, and made the front page. https://dominionstrategy.com/2017/12/25/2017-holiday-kingdom/

OMG! Entering Carcassonne - Catapult territory...