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Messages - GendoIkari

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8301
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 16, 2012, 05:31:44 pm »
I don't see why the star ratings can't just be based on number of turns.  In general, the faster you end a game of Dominion on a win, the better you played it.

Because it depends as much on what your opponent does as on what you do. If you he mirrors you, going for the same VP cards, then the game will take roughly half as long as when you go for different VP card piles. Regardless of how well you play.

It'll reward mirroring your opponent's strategy for a faster end EVEN IF that strategy is suboptimal and you have a higher chance of winning by not mirroring it.

Except you are playing bots, so they know roughly in advance what the Bot is going to do and can adjust it accordingly.
Its part of the puzzle. Whats the Bot going for, how can I beat that strat in the fastest number of turns.

If the point of it is to be a puzzle based on Dominion, rather than the game of Dominion, then that's fine... but at that point there is no objective correct answer as to what is the best criteria for 3 stars. If it's a puzzle, it makes just as much sense to say "to get 3 stars on this level, you must win by less than 4 points, while having at least 10 Coppers in your deck." That could make for a perfectly good puzzle. You could also award 3 stars whether you win or not, as long as you end the game with more than 60 cards in your deck. Just look at the solo-challenges forum... any of those could make good 3-star qualifications, if what matters here is what's a good puzzle.

It takes just as much skill to accomplish those things as it does to win a game in less than 16 turns or to win by more than 18 points. Those are just different types of skills. And none of them are the same as the type of skill that it takes to be a good Dominion player.

8302
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 16, 2012, 04:39:43 pm »
I recommend suggesting what the actual formula for stars should be. Who knows, they might change it.

I'm quite sure that this suggestion won't be followed, but my opinion is... completely get rid of the notion of different amount of stars; just make it "win" or "lose." There's a very good reason that both Isotropic and Goko leaderboards don't account for anything like number of points or length of game. Because the game of Dominion itself doesn't make any sense to count those things as any sort of measure of skill.

I love games that allow multiple stars for each level in general. I'm the kind of guy who will not be satisfied with beating all the levels of Angry Birds; but will want 3 stars on each level. Those are fun, and a great way to increase playability in such games. So I'm not against this concept in general.

But when it comes to Dominion, it flat-out doesn't work. If I beat someone by 1 point in 26 turns, that doesn't mean that I played worse than if I beat someone by 72 points in 16 turns. The stated object of Dominion is to have more points than your opponent when the game ends. That's it. The object is not to score the most points possible; it is not to end the game as quickly as possible. There is just as much skill in finding a way to end a game while 1 point ahead as there is in finding a strategy that allows a megaturn where you buy all 8 Provinces at once. It makes no sense at all to reward one particular strategy over another, when within the object of the game of Dominion, each strategy may be equally good. I do not believe there is any way to assign stars to games that doesn't completely change the stated objective of a game of Dominion.

8303
Dominion Articles / Re: suggestions on article writing: a manifesto
« on: October 16, 2012, 01:53:05 pm »
You didn't put "draft" in the title of this article. ;)

Seriously though, this is a good start, and addresses many of the important generalities. But I think it would be good to talk about some of the specifics as well. Of course, specifics are more prone to exceptions and such, but it might still be good to list the specific things that articles should include. That is to say, they (assuming we're talking about card articles) should probably include the following:

Lists of cards/types of games that they do and don't work with.
Comparisons to other cards.
Common traps/pitfalls that people fall for with the card.
Example games.
Statistics (Darn you council room >:()
 

8304
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: October 16, 2012, 12:13:53 pm »

8305
Game Reports / Re: Epic Curse Tennis
« on: October 16, 2012, 09:08:52 am »
Interesting! I think I'd open ambassador/haven here, picking up a second ambassador asap and ignoring witch. Not sure if that's right.

I definitely considered ignoring Witch... certainly if he had, I would have, which made me glad that I had my $2 first and he had his $5 first. I do think his second Witch was definitely a mistake.

8306
Game Reports / Epic Curse Tennis
« on: October 15, 2012, 07:06:06 pm »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/15/game-20121015-160222-dfcd60dc.html

This is by far the most Ambassador-heavy game I've played. Ambassador was played with Curse 13 times over 26 turns. I had no clue who was winning... in the end, I managed to give him all 10 Curses... and I won by 1 point.

8307
Help! / Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« on: October 15, 2012, 02:26:06 pm »
1. I'm gonna have to assume steward should be used for trashing.  I only say this because if you are opening steward/silver, on a board with witch, you are suggesting there is a reason to trash.  If the decision for you was to gain $2 with steward to get your witch, you should have gone silver/silver.  Thus this decision should have been made prior to opening steward/silver. 

I think this is faulty logic (though the conclusion may be correct; I"m not sure. Depends on the Kingdom). At the time you chose Steward, you didn't know if you would draw it in the same hand as your Silver or not. You could have easily drawn it in a hand where using +$2 wouldn't have gotten you a Witch, in which case it being a Silver instead would have been worse. It's the same question as drawing 4 Coppers and Steward on turn 3, and trying to choose between Gold and trashing 2 Coppers.

8308
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion play variant
« on: October 15, 2012, 02:22:45 pm »
Instead of playing with ten cards, take the randomizer deck from the seven (eight) expansions, and play with those. That way, the game is swingy and appealing if you have nothing to do. It involves much less strategy, but looks fun. Has this been discussed before? Has anybody tried it?
I'm much more likely to enjoy megaminion i think.

One million minions?  No thanks.

So, on turns 1-8, purchase a Province each; game over. But I'd still use the new hand option each turn just for the lulz.

8309
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion play variant
« on: October 15, 2012, 02:21:50 pm »
Can to clarify? Are you saying that each player chooses a random 10 cards from the randomizers? Or that the entire randomizer deck is your deck? Does this include the treasure and victory randomizers from the first set? Either way, I would think that 80% of games would be fully decided based completely on what opening deck you happen to get; which means the entire game can just be replaced with a coin toss to determine winner... but a few games could have some interesting/strategic decisions about how to play your deck.

8310
Game Reports / Re: How do you play this Goons insanity?
« on: October 13, 2012, 10:02:37 pm »
Funny, I don't think either of us ever pulled of playing Masq after Goons... didn't even think of it! I also just remembered that King's Court was in the Black Market... so it could have been theoretically possible to pull off a pin. (Though you normally use 2 King's Courts, it can be done with just 1).

I'd probably go for the pin, then.

Problem is you'd need great luck to pull KC from Black Market. And without being able to get KC early it would be hard to set up your deck in such a way to prepare for the pin.

8311
Dominion Articles / Re: Farmland (draft)
« on: October 12, 2012, 02:25:18 pm »
Of course, you missed the top reason to buy it: Mistakenly thinking it's Fairgrounds.

Man I had a game last month where I bought a few Farmlands for the on-trash part of it... while also working to add more variety to my deck to make those Farmlands worth more points! So I wasn't confusing Farmland for Fairgrounds, I was confusing Farmland for some overpowered non-existent Farmland + Fairgrounds combo card! :-[

8312
I'm wondering the same thing.  I was playing on Goko with my wife earlier today. I'm currently deployed to Afghanistan, so it's nice to be able to do things like that.  Anyway, I came under the gun of some player that didn't appreciate that I wasn't allowing him onto my table that I had reserved for my wife and I.  I know enough about internet protocol not to feed the trolls or get too upset about it, but my wife is only playing this game because she likes spending time with me.  She's not an avid internet user and gets very offended at things like this.  It would be nice (as this is a paid service) to have a report option, or at the very least implement a friends/ignore list.

Man I once was playing on BSW, and 2 people proposed a game with me, one right after the other. I accepted the second one without much thought. The first guy was very upset that I didn't accept his game even though he had proposed first. He kept talking about how it during my game, and then even did some sort of trick that BSW let you do that pulled me out of my game and back into the lobby.

8313
Introductions / Re: Greetings and Thanks!
« on: October 11, 2012, 01:44:51 pm »
If you don't mind sharing, what small, Christian, liberal arts college would that be? I'm just curious, having graduated from St. Olaf college...

8314
Game Reports / Re: I finally made the Golden Deck!
« on: October 11, 2012, 01:35:36 pm »
Problem here is that both Embargo and Mountebank could ruin the Golden Deck...

8315
Game Reports / Re: How do you play this Goons insanity?
« on: October 11, 2012, 01:33:31 pm »
Quote
My strategy wasn't much different than his... but I opened 5/2 and grabbed Trading Post / Cellar.

I'd skip the cellar there. I don't think it will help the trading post and by the time you need a cellar you can buy it with goons.

I see what you mean, though due to how my opening shuffles happened to play out, Celler ended up allowing me to cycle through my cards and get that early Trading post a lot faster at the start.

8316
I don't know about you, but I'd go for the novelty "discard" option every single time.

Well of course. Just like I'd always trash a Fortress with my Chapel if I didn't have 4 other cards I want to trash.

8317
Game Reports / Re: How do you play this Goons insanity?
« on: October 11, 2012, 11:37:00 am »
I agree with your opening, I would have skipped black market in favor of Masq for the Goons -> Masq abuse. 

Games like these among skilled players are frequently going to be lucky.

Funny, I don't think either of us ever pulled of playing Masq after Goons... didn't even think of it! I also just remembered that King's Court was in the Black Market... so it could have been theoretically possible to pull off a pin. (Though you normally use 2 King's Courts, it can be done with just 1).

8318
Game Reports / How do you play this Goons insanity?
« on: October 11, 2012, 11:05:00 am »
I wish I had saved this log... just finished a game against a level 40... the board was scary:

Border Village
Goons
Council Room
Tribute
Trading Post
Mandarin
Smugglers
Black Market
Masquerade
Cellar

In the Black Market... Wharf, Fishing Village, Menagerie, Hunting Party, Margrave, dunno what else...

So I managed to win on a 4-Goons mega-turn... but I'm pretty sure that given the way the game felt like it was going, he would have won more more than half the time given each our strategies.

So he got a few Border Village/Tribute/Council room first before grabbing Goons when he could. At first I thought he was crazy for grabbing Border Village over Goons with his first $6; but I quickly saw how good of a deck he was building.

My strategy wasn't much different than his... but I opened 5/2 and grabbed Trading Post / Celler. I picked up Black Market over Masq; and got Smugglers early as well. He eventually got Black Market.. he pulled Wharf and Menagerie while I pulled Fishing Village and Hunting Party.

Here's what's really interesting though... Tribute was the most important source of +Actions here. Without all the +Actions from Tribute, neither of us could have played many Goons per turn. This means that we were relying upon each other to be building a similar engine for our own engine to work. In other words, if either of us had just gone BM + Goons, it likely would have forced the other person to do the same.


8319
I loved the concept of Ghost Town, but I didn't understand why it wasn't "discard other than from play". Comboing with cards like Oasis is fine. It could also do with a boost - maybe give it $1 or another benefit with self synergising, (benefit+discard a card, spy effect).

1) It didn't seem that weak to me when it was designed, and after much thought, I still agree. How much virtual card-draw does a cheaper village need to give? I'm not sure, but I don't think it's much.
2) I wanted to avoid the awkwardness of things like Secret Chamber. That is, if I discard a Ghost Town to Secret Chamber, does it return to my hand right away? Can I infinitely cycle it? That's not a question I want players considering. There are some ways to fix it, but nothing elegant.

That said, it might want a revision. Here's the list of cards in currently interacts with based on the reaction alone:

COMBOS
spy
adventurer
lookout
navigator
scrying pool
golem
harvest
hunting party
duchess
oracle
jack of all trades
cartographer
catacombs
ironmonger
rebuild
sage
survivors

DEFENSE
thief
saboteur
tribute
pirate ship
sea hag
rabble
fortune teller
jester
noble brigand
rogue
knights

NOMBO
loan
venture

That isn't the most in the world, but that's only considering the reaction aspect. Any card like Library works well with a village that lowers your hand count. (Speaking of, I don't think the reaction works with Library, but I'm not sure.) And villages tend to be necessary buys in a variety of engines. If the right idea shows up, I'll adjust it accordingly.

Scrying Pool is an amusing combo.... Scrying Pool reveals Ghost Town. You can keep it there, thus drawing it and continuing on the search... or you can discard it, putting it in your hand, and continuing on with the search... absolutely no difference. Of course, it works as Scrying Pool defense.

8320
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest: RinkWorks Cards!
« on: October 10, 2012, 05:13:17 pm »

I'm embarrassed to say that that's how my card is actually worded, and I just screwed up in retyping it here.  Well, the ballot is fixed now.

No it's not ???

Oops.  I meant "fixed" as in "finalized."  I didn't let other people revise their cards after the ballot was posted (unless the mistake was mine), so I won't let myself make changes either.

But the mistake is yours.

Yes, but the mistake was made by Rinkworks, card idea submitter; not by Rinkworks, thread-maker. Completely different.

8321
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest: RinkWorks Cards!
« on: October 10, 2012, 02:23:59 pm »

I'm embarrassed to say that that's how my card is actually worded, and I just screwed up in retyping it here.  Well, the ballot is fixed now.

No it's not ???


8322
Authors should make sure all revisions preserve the underlying spirit of the card as listed in the OP.  That is, don't abuse the opportunity to submit a "revision" that is really a brand new card.  If you're unsure about whether a change is too severe or not, feel free to include two different possible revisions in your PM to me:  a more extensive revision you prefer, and an alternate revision if I deem it too much of a change.  I'll tend to err in your favor, though; I don't really want to police this any heavier than I have to.

When you think about it, Bazaar is really just a slight revision to Woodcutter. They just replaced the Buy with 2 actions and a card, then lowered how much money you get and raised the price to balance it out.

8323
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest: RinkWorks Cards!
« on: October 10, 2012, 12:48:49 pm »
Minor technicality, but Museum needs to say to gain a Prize from the Prize Pile. Otherwise, you attempt to gain a prize from the supply and fail to do so, since "gain" always means "from the supply" unless otherwise specified. Tournament, Hermit, Pillage, etc, all specify the pile to gain from.

8324
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest: RinkWorks Cards!
« on: October 10, 2012, 12:44:48 pm »
Quote
Street Sweeper
$3 - Action
Choose one:  +2 Cards; or look through your discard pile and put one card from it into your hand.

Did you ever consider this?

$3 - Action
Look through your discard pile.
Choose one: +2 cards; or put one card from your discard pile into your hand

Ok, so the wording is definitely more annoying. But I'm not sure I like the idea of adding an extra element of memory as to whether or not you have a card in your discard that you want to play. Hermit allows you to look through your discard pile before choosing if you want to trash from hand or from discard.

8325
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest: RinkWorks Cards!
« on: October 10, 2012, 11:24:38 am »
What happens to cards left on the Museum mat at game end?

It's been established that all set-aside cards are still part of your deck for game-end purposes. Island specifically tells you to return them, but that's more of a reminder than establishing a rule. For example, the card set-aside with Haven, or Horse Traders if it's set aside, don't specifically tell you to return them to your deck.

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