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Messages - GendoIkari

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7001
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Cards with maximum buying value
« on: December 18, 2013, 04:14:41 pm »
Pirate Ship's maximum value is not infinite.  It doesn't have a maximum value.  Those are different things.
So technically those top two cards are not on the top 10 list, since they don't have maximum values.
Shouldn't you say the same for Vault, Secret Chamber, Store Room, and Bank?  There's no upper limit on the number of available Coppers in the Supply.

Uh... There's only 60 - number of players * 7 Coppers in the supply...

No, there's no upper limit.  There just happen to be only 60 Coppers printed in each set.  But you can combine all the Coppers from all the sets in all the universes into one pile.  It's in the rules to Intrigue.  The Copper pile was intended to be inexhaustible.

"Copper, Silver, and Gold cards are the basic Treasure cards, and they are available in every game. After each player takes 7 Copper cards, place the remaining Copper cards and all of the Silver and Gold cards in face-up piles in the Supply. The Treasure cards from Dominion and Dominion: Intrigue can be combined, since these cards are intended to be in abundant enough supply to not run out. (If a type of Treasure card does run out, that becomes an empty pile in the Supply, which can be important for game ending conditions.)"

"The Treasure cards from Dominion and Dominion: Intrigue can be combined" is NOT the same as "The Treasure cards from as many Dominion sets as you wish can be combined." Yes, the intent was for them to not run out, but because they can, there are rules about how many there are. Coppers are either 60, or 120. Any other number doesn't fit the rules technically.

7002
Rules Questions / Re: Band of Misfits as Herbalist
« on: December 18, 2013, 02:29:24 pm »
Puzzle question:

Which Duration(s) you played this (not the previous) turn can get put on your deck with a Scheme you also played this turn?

an Outpost played during an outpost-turn.

I'm pretty sure that, for reasons which don't make sense to me, Outpost is not cleaned up till the next turn even if you do play it on an Outpost turn.

However, Haven played when you don't have any other cards in your deck, hand, or discard for some reason can also be Schemed this turn.

This is correct. Output stays out because it's still causing you to draw 3 instead of 5.


But drawing 3 instead of 5 is part of this turn's cleanup phase, so this is the last turn it has any effect. Is it somehow too late to discard it since you've already discarded this cleanup phase? (ie, discard hand and cards in play, then Outpost makes you draw 3, now discard Outpost from play)

Quote from: Seaside Rulebook
Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something (discard it before drawing for the following turn).
...
Leave Outpost in front of you until the end of the extra turn.
...
If you play Outpost during an extra turn, it won't give you another turn.

I feel like Outpost should be discarded during the turn it was played if it was played during an extra turn due to another Outpost, but I also don't think the rules are 100% clear about it.

Somewhat related, it looks like the rulebook doesn't specify the discard Tactician this turn interaction; this sentence doesn't look like it's bound to actually having discarded anything with Tactician.
Quote
Tactician stays out in front of you until the Clean-up phase of your next turn.

Simply put, Outpost doesn't follow actual Duration card rules as they are literally worded. Even if you just play it in a normal situation, it has no effect during the next turn. Its only effect is during the cleanup of this turn. However, like you say, once Outpost is done doing its thing, it is now too late to clean it up, because you've already finished that part of the cleanup step.

7003
Rules Questions / Re: Band of Misfits as Herbalist
« on: December 18, 2013, 10:31:45 am »
I think "leaves play" triggers after the clean-up phase is complete, so I would think you could topdeck a Treasure.
Isn't there a BoM-Scheme ruling somewhere which is similar?

? Scheme's effect has nothing to do with Scheme being in play. You could Procession it and still return 2 cards to the top of your deck.

I'm curious, does anyone know if DXV has ever commented on why Herbalist and Scheme are worded differently? Since the intended effect is the same - put an action or treasure you played this turn on top of your deck - I would assume this is one of those cards he would go back and change the wording on to match scheme if he could.

Herbalist has the simpler, better wording. Scheme is worded like is due to Action–Duration cards. If there were Treasure–Duration cards, Herbalist would need a crazy wording, too.
Hmm. Actually I was thinking more of why scheme is something that happens when you play it, vs herbalist being something that happens when you discard it. And of course it's obvious to me now, it's so it can work on itself, as well as get multiplied by throne room and kings court.

No, I think LastFootnote's answer is real the answer to your question. "So it can work on itself [and] get multiplied by Throne Room" wasn't Donald X.'s priority. Making it work with Durations was the priority, and making it do its thing when you play it was the simplest way for that to happen.
I thought the "make it work with durations" part of scheme is the "name a card ... if you discard it" wordiness. Couldn't scheme say "When you discard this from play, you may choose an action card you played this turn. If you discard it from play this turn, put it on your deck." and still work just fine with durations?

But that would add further confusion to the order of cleanup mattering, which I think right now only matters if Alchemist, Potion, and Herbalist are all out. With the wording you propose, you would need to make sure you clean up your Schemes first, before your other actions.

7004
Rules Questions / Re: Band of Misfits as Herbalist
« on: December 18, 2013, 09:39:31 am »
Puzzle question:

Which Duration(s) you played this (not the previous) turn can get put on your deck with a Scheme you also played this turn?

an Outpost played during an outpost-turn.

I'm pretty sure that, for reasons which don't make sense to me, Outpost is not cleaned up till the next turn even if you do play it on an Outpost turn.

However, Haven played when you don't have any other cards in your deck, hand, or discard for some reason can also be Schemed this turn.

This is correct. Output stays out because it's still causing you to draw 3 instead of 5.

Another question... if tricky wording for Durations weren't needed, how much weaker would Scheme be? Aside from KC-SCheme going away, because that's just one particular combo... but if Scheme couldn't topdeck itself, I'd think that would make it a lot worse.

7005
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« on: December 17, 2013, 04:45:25 pm »
Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck?  Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.

Edge cases to other games?  Is that what we've come to?
Not if the game is Tic-Tac-Toe!
Maybe not an edge-case, but close enough


That case clearly goes beyond the edge.

7006
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« on: December 17, 2013, 04:03:53 pm »
"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.

It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.

But it could require you to name a legal Dominion card. Or a card being used this game. You can't say "in the Supply" both because you have to be able to name Madman, and you have to be able to name something from an empty pile.

I disagree.  What if we disagree over whether or not Island was in the Black Market deck?  I swear that I bought it, but you insist that it wasn't in the deck.  We can't check without thumbing through my deck.  Or what if I were to name Dame Stephanie?  You tell me that there is no Dame Stephanie, and I tell you that you are out of your mind, there is totally a Dame Stephanie; it's the one that curses.  We can't just check the Knights pile (especially since the top of the Knights pile is most certainly not Dame Stephanie).

Or even without player error, can I name Ruined Village in our two player game before a Ruined Village has been revealed from the Ruins pile?  Maybe it is in the game, or maybe not.

All good points.

7007
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« on: December 17, 2013, 03:33:09 pm »
"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.

It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.

But it could require you to name a legal Dominion card. Or a card being used this game. You can't say "in the Supply" both because you have to be able to name Madman, and you have to be able to name something from an empty pile.

7008
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« on: December 17, 2013, 02:06:54 pm »
And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.

It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)

Are you really not sure which way is better?  :o

Well although I highlighted the downside of only the MTG way, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Dominion notion that "name a card" really just means "name something." It just seems odd to me that I can just say "keyboard", because I'm sure that in the history of card games, someone has created a card named "keyboard." While the intent of the card is clear and obvious, the literal rules aspect gets muddled when you don't need to think at all about what it means to "name a card."

7009
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« on: December 17, 2013, 01:48:51 pm »
And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.

It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.

Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.

It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.

I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)

7010
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« on: December 17, 2013, 11:24:06 am »
I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...

But Possession is interesting enough to warrant confusion. Rebuild is not. Just like what Donald said about how he would prefer powerful cards to be interesting, while Rebuild is powerful yet not interesting.

7011
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« on: December 17, 2013, 10:13:12 am »
What if it simply got rid of the "up to"? It would play differently with Alt-VP; otherwise the only difference would be that you can't turn Provinces into Provinces to accelerate the end.

7012
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards
« on: December 17, 2013, 09:55:09 am »
There is no one forcing you to play Lookout,

Throne Room and Golem are forcing me to play it.  :(

7013
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Idea: Convocation
« on: December 16, 2013, 12:52:44 pm »
Sorry to necro this thread, but it seemed silly to start another thread about the same card.

I've been playing this version of Convocation for a while (eHalcyon had it right!):

Convocation
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard revealed cards one at a time until no two of them share a type. Put the rest into your hand.

It's popular, and pretty comparable to Hunting Party power-wise. It may be a bit too strong. The problem is that nobody can understand what it does until I explain it to them. So I'm trying to make a simpler version. How does this seem?

Convocation
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal cards from your deck until you've revealed two that share a type. Discard one of those two and put the rest into your hand.

Usually weaker. Occasionally stronger. Do you think it's any easier to parse?

This sounds really weak to me... I'd think it would be pretty common for the top 2 cards of your deck to both be treasure, or both be action... in fact close to 50% of the time in your average deck that hasn't started greening yet. And in that case, this is just a cantrip with no benefit.

7014
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Hirelings Pile - Part 2
« on: December 12, 2013, 02:47:05 pm »
Ok, so I really like some of these.

Hired Guard... the concept of a Moat that you can keep turn to turn is cool. Though I wonder how often the ability will be used instead to play Hired Guard multiple times in a turn. It would become the only card you can play twice in the same turn, except for Mandarin/Black Market or Graverobber things.

Hired Pathcutter... maybe my favorite name for a card ever, and I normally don't care about flavor all that much. But victory points are land, and the pathcutter gets land out of the way. But as was mentioned, it's a lot like Scout.

Hired Tomb Raiders... needs different wording, I think. There's no real way to know if the card you discarded was one of the ones you are pulling back. Not sure of an easy fix that keeps the "discard a card" part, though.

Hired Escort... sounds way too powerful. Reasonable to assume that you'll be able to discard a treasure most of the time, which makes this card simply +3 cards, +3 actions. Sounds way too good for a $6.

7015
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion song parodies
« on: December 12, 2013, 11:58:38 am »
what does the Scout do?

Like the legend of the Minstrel Vagrant
Mild cycling and some sifting
Cards from the deck we're lifting
We know our luck is shifting

We look at four and draw all victory cards
The rest we will sort, top of deck now restored

Scout's on the board 'til there's none
I'm paying 4 to buy one
Scout's on the board for good fun
I'm playing Scout to get VP

Scout gives me actions plus one
Clear hand next turn should be fun
Buy more Estates 'til I've won
I'm playing Scout to get VP

I'm playing Scout to get VP
I'm playing Scout to get VP
I'm playing Scout to get VP
I'm playing Scout to get VP

I'm apparently out of touch with pop culture.  What song is this supposed to be?

Damn kids, get off my lawn.

[video, let's not embed it a second time]

Apparently disco is back?

So this is that "Get Lucky" that I've been hearing about.

7016
Other Games / Re: Smallworld 2 sale
« on: December 12, 2013, 11:56:53 am »
Maybe it's Smallworld, too?

Maybe it's a Smallworld after all?

7017
Other Games / Re: Smallworld 2 sale
« on: December 12, 2013, 11:49:08 am »
I'm surprised the race tokens still look like cardboard squares. Seems like one awesome thing you could do with a computerized version that wouldn't work as well with a board game would be to make the troops actual troops.

Also... why is this Smallworld 2? Isn't it just Smallworld?

7018
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion song parodies
« on: December 11, 2013, 07:11:44 pm »
Lab draws cards, Workshop gains.
Warehouse sifts, and Witch attacks.
Bridge gives buys, Duke scores points, and Militia discards cards.
Smithy draws, Familiar junks, and the Lighthouse blocks attacks.
But there's one card that no one knows...
WHAT DOES THE SCOUT SAY?
Ring-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
WHAT THE SCOUT SAY?
Wa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pow!
Wa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pow!
Wa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pow!
WHAT THE SCOUT SAY?
Hatee-hatee-hatee-ho!
Hatee-hatee-hatee-ho!
Hatee-hatee-hatee-ho!
WHAT THE SCOUT SAY?
Joff-tchoff-tchoff-tchoffo-tchoffo-tchoff!
Joff-tchoff-tchoff-tchoffo-tchoffo-tchoff!
Joff-tchoff-tchoff-tchoffo-tchoffo-tchoff!
WHAT THE SCOUT SAY?

I think this is awesome, but would be 10x awesomer if it were "what does the Scout do?" instead of "say?"

7019
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards
« on: December 11, 2013, 05:02:45 pm »
Treasure Map!

Good call, but rewording Treasure Map is not high on my priority list. Like, the number of situations in which you buy Treasure Maps and then play one with another one in hand that you opt not to trash, while perhaps nonzero, is pretty damn small.

When you are forced to play one with double-Throne Room / Smithy, and you have 3 in your hand, not 2. You only want to trash 2 of them, not all 3. Of course you're fixing Throne Room, but then, what happens when that comes up? You have to choose; Trash all 3 for the Golds, or keep all 3 for more Golds later?

Or, perhaps it's late game and you've never been able to connect them. You have a bunch of Fairgrounds, and already at least 1 Gold. You want to trash a Treasure Map to remove a basically dead card from your deck, but you need to keep the other one around for Fairgrounds.

Ok, I'll stop now.

7020
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards
« on: December 11, 2013, 04:58:30 pm »
Don't forgot Graverobber.

I didn't forget Graverobber so much as purposefully omit it and hope nobody noticed. Adding a "you may" to Graverobber's second option would make the wording really awkward. I guess it could just say, "You may choose one:" For all practical purposes, if they pick the second choice and then opt not to trash an Action card, they are effectively picking neither choice.


But there's no room for "all practical purposes" in the ultra-pedantic world of F.DS! I don't really see anything wrong with "you may" on the second choice. You choose choice #2, at which point you choose if you want to do the "you may" or not.

7021
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Do you want to quit?
« on: December 11, 2013, 04:30:51 pm »
Well I sure misinterpreted the thread title.

Me too!  ;D

7022
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards
« on: December 11, 2013, 04:06:49 pm »
How about Throne Room and Moneylender that either say may, or have the "(or reveal a hand with no)"?

And Mine. People forget about Mine. I'll do those when I get the chance. Odds are I won't change their names, though, since the effect will be almost identical.

EDIT: (Oh, and they will say, "You may." Having to reveal a hand without is wordier and clunkier, and the cards won't mind the tiny buff.

Don't forgot Graverobber. And I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 or 2 others...

7023
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What if King's Court cost $3?
« on: December 11, 2013, 04:00:11 pm »
There are way too many good $4s that would be just outrageous if you could play them 3 times on your third turn. KC + Cutpurse, KC + Sea Hag, KC + Marauder, KC + Young Witch would all be pretty devastating if you could connect them on your first shuffle. I wonder if the power of these combos would outweigh the unlikeliness of connecting the KC and the terminal - it's rare that Throne Room/X is the correct open, but would an extra play of the terminal change that, so that that KC/X is the correct play?

With KC at $3, you probably ought to shoot to pick up multiple on a single turn, in almost any kingdom with any kind of +buy, virtual or actual. Trying to drive the KC pile from the start doesn't help your deck at all, and is probably slower than using the KCs to your advantage in most cases.

Also, the Throne Room + X discussion (until recently!) has been with X costing $3. Throne Room + Sea Hag could be different; not sure.

7024
The Finnish edition has been delayed until November.

I guess they couldn't finnish it in time.

Better trans-late than never.

As long as they aren't rushin' the translations.

7025
Dominion General Discussion / What if King's Court cost $3?
« on: December 11, 2013, 01:14:40 pm »
I just got to thinking about this, since one way that powerful cards are put in check is by making them more expensive. But what would the best strategy usually be if KC cost $3?

Assuming that the board contains at least some actions that you want to triple (something other than treasure cards and villages, etc); do you automatically open KC/KC, even though you haven't helped your deck at all yet? Winning the KC split is often important, but if you just keep buying KC until they're gone; you'll have a terrible deck that will have a lot of trouble buying the key $5s you need. So do you build your deck first, then start adding KC, risking losing the split? In which case, except for +buy, $3 and $7 might not be all that different anyway!

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