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101

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2017 Edition: $6+ cards

« on: July 07, 2018, 11:29:37 pm »

It seems the current trend over the past year has been an increased perception of the value of trashers (Remake topping the s, Junk Dealer second in the s).  I'm hoping the next trend will be an increased perception of the value of gainers, and let Artisan and Vampire bump up a bit more.

Not sure if it's been done, but they could start ranking the cards by such categories...
best $4 trashers
best $5 gainers
etc.

102

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)

« on: July 07, 2018, 04:18:22 pm »

I'm 100% with GendoIkari; the full log shouldn't be visible. If you think it's necessary to know the full contents of your deck and discard pile at all times, you're taking this game too seriously.

Although I agree with not having the full log visible at all times, "too seriously" is still something that's in the eye of the beholder. 
For some, rankings of all the cards could constitute that.
Or visiting ANY online forums to find out more about Dominion could constitute that (let alone this site).

Or insisting that someone NOT buy a Woodcutter, or that extra Copper (no, not a Gardens game).  This happened in an actual game where one Dom. vet explained why that was a bad idea.  The group he was in was so casual, they just wanted to go through the motions for themselves, and not even be bogged down by such minutia.  The group will likely never ascend to any sort of decent players, but they have fun, treating Dom. more like a party/social game than a euro/engine/optimization game.

Kieran's post is the one I agree with most here. The culture of thinking it's okay to spend several minutes thinking through actions at the top level has significantly hurt my own online experience, especially since having a kid. It gets harder to justify playing by the day.

For the record, if I had my choice of timer, no joke, i'd probably set it to 1 minute total down time pet turn for each player. I agree very much with the sentiment, "if someone makes a suboptimal play, so be it."

I'd be more inclined to use a chess clock.  It's all relative.  Towards midgame is when things tend to slow down.  I had one 4p game where one strong player who played quick otherwise took a few minutes in a midgame turn, apologizing profusely.  I didn't blame him, nor did anybody else.  He had around $26, multiple Buys, and no Coppers in play to enable buying Grand Markets, so it was crucial to work out how much he should "green", "engine", or in what combo (e.g. more GM, get a Platinum, Colony vs. Province and use the remainder towards a better card, etc.)

103

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why I'm quitting Dominion for the foreseeable future (not satire)

« on: July 07, 2018, 04:15:13 pm »

I will say that Dominion taking too long online has become an issue for me. I don't play in League and am not all that bothered by rating, but like to play rated games so I can play against people of roughly the same skill. But sometimes games just drag on and take forever and I play less now as a result.

I played on BSW when it was just base game and 5 cards from Intrigue.  An opponent bought out most of the Laboratories, and many other +Card effects.  My turns were only 5s.  His were about 1.5 to 3 minutes.  That was a sucky game for me, not much I could do about that.  But then he complained when I told him I'm going to be doing dishes or chores around the house since my turns were short.  If I get back just when it's my turn, then I'll move quickly.  Otherwise, I'm not going to sit around on the edge of my seat just for his whims.

Dominion's original appeal to me was speed and simplicity on the surface but deep strategy underneath. But sitting staring at a screen of cards with nothing happening is dull. I think Dominion would be better online if there was a clock. Sometimes it would mean people were forced to rush and make suboptimal plays, well that's fine. Intuition is a skill too. Long turns and overthinking might be fun for some, but it is not fun to play against, and also very dull to watch.

I do know a few people who will only play IRL Dom. if the games are quick.  Some cases of "quick" are a bit extreme, but I was in a different room when I was shocked to hear a 3p games with the newly released Dark Ages exp. took 1.5 hours to play!  The newcomers took A LONG time to read through and reread many of the cards.  In that time in a different room, we played two games of Ticket To Ride!  (Nordic Countries, and can't remember the other exp.).  For reference, it should be the other way around :p

104

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Combos #1: Cursed Village + Pathfinding

« on: July 06, 2018, 09:28:36 pm »

If you play multiple CV, you still draw after that first one

105

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Could The Wind's Gift been optional?

« on: July 06, 2018, 12:06:25 pm »

I'm not as concerned with the other mandatory Boons, as Winds Gift has been the most detrimental to me at any rate.

106

Dominion General Discussion / Could The Wind's Gift been optional?

« on: July 05, 2018, 04:36:34 am »

Akin to having to +1 card from someone else's Council Room, the Wind's Gift (+2 cards, -2 cards) has been disruptive at times.  I've had moments where I would've preferred NOT to do that (so preface the text with may, akin to the other "may" Boons like Sky/-3 cards for Gold, or Earth/-1 Treasure for a $4 or less card).  Currently, you deal with it as best you can like any other required effect that can sometimes backfire.

Any further design insight into if this was optional at some point, or does it "just work" the way it was?

107

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box

« on: July 01, 2018, 08:24:07 pm »

I don't know why people are pretending that engines with treasure payload are rare.

It's still jarring to hear the pros have gone out of their way to avoid Silver and even Gold

108

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?

« on: June 29, 2018, 11:12:01 pm »

I find one of guardian's most clutch abilities is being able to open with a $5 card whenever you open 3/4.

I'd be really sad if my opponent opened 2/5 on a board with Guardian and something like Border Village or Goons...

Altar or Artisan might be even scarier as openings.

^^ This...
it's a variation of the 2/6 split.  Or a "0/6 split" since Guardian may not be useful beyond that, but getting to $6 before the first shuffle can be nice!

Otherwise, one plus of Guardian vs. Lighthouse is it doesn't need +Actions to play

109

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Events: Lost Arts

« on: June 26, 2018, 12:38:45 am »

-How quickly do you want to get this?

I'm going to say after you purchased 2 of that Action

-What Actions are the best targets for Lost Arts?

Terminal card draws, although chains (+1 action) aren't bad either if you got terminals.

-How does it compare to the other token Events, and Teacher?

Teacher takes such a long time to get to that AFAIK, it may too late more times than not

Seaway remains unique since it only works on supply action cards $4 or less, and you need to gain that card, but it does get you copy of that card

Priced rather according vs. all the other 3 player token events.  In the right usage, it feels like you can, rule your Dominion 

110

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel

« on: June 25, 2018, 11:47:07 pm »

I'm the same way here... I get sucked into the "mini-game", and want wrack up gold for "extra fun points". 

111

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Cobbler

« on: June 25, 2018, 11:45:56 pm »

Interesting that amongst all the "gain a card costing up to 4 coins", this one's the most pricy...
$0 - Alms
$3 - Workshop
$4 - Armory
$5 - Cobbler

Alms is only once per turn, and also restricted if you have your -1 card token (from somewhere else).  Plus, you can't have any Treasure in play, so it's not likely you could meaningfully utilize +Buys with this

Workshop is boring, but tried and true

Armory also forces you to top deck a card (not so great in gaining dead cards like Victory, but otherwise, not to terrible)

This has the benefit of not requiring any +Actions.  And the fact it goes to your hand means it doesn't slow your draw down (unlike Armory).

Cobbler Cage Match between me and Mic:



I'm not going to pretend I had high confidence with my Cobbler buys (or non-buys), but Cobbler seemed pretty good in some of the games.  Game 5 was my favorite board of the bunch, and Mic's two Cobblers were far superior to my one.

It looks funky how Spoils and Ruins are in the corner like that...
OOOOOO
XOOOOX

Kind of wish it would be its own row, and leave the Kingdom cards to a 2x5 grid!

112

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Cursed Village

« on: June 25, 2018, 11:13:57 pm »

Don't play Pathfinder on Cursed Village :p

Dunno if it’s been said; but some of the hexes don’t hurt you at all when it’s your buy phase instead of an opponent’s turn. So the receive the next hex part is less of a penalty than it seems at first.

One of the few times it's hurt me when it normally isn't a big deal was when I wanted to Trash a Copper, but Haunting made me discard it.

113

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Lets discuss intrigue cards:coppersmith

« on: June 25, 2018, 11:05:25 pm »

At the very least, add +1 Buy to it
Or make it a chain (+1 Action)


I do have fond memories myself, and watching others play a Coppersmith along with 4 Coppers for Province!

114

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Tragic Hero

« on: June 25, 2018, 10:44:10 pm »

When Tragic Hero triggers, you trash it and gain a treasure, but gaining a treasure is not contingent on trashing.  In other words, the hero didn't need to die!  It truly is a tragedy.

I guess this was an intentional choice by DXV to enable the Necromancer interaction.

I care more about having the best wording than I do about incidental interactions.

[shrug]  Mad props for making Tragic Hero quite thematic with Necromancer!

115

Dominion General Discussion / Re: is royal seal underrated?

« on: June 25, 2018, 10:34:48 pm »

It’d be fine at $4.

It would, except, as Donald X once said, "look, I can't make a Treasure that gives $2, has some other effect that is always beneficial, and costs $4; that's just better than Silver, and people by Silver for $4 all the time".

And then he made Delve.

The main problem with Silver-with-a-bonus for $4 (for games where people want Silver and aren't gaining it with a Silver-gainer) is that the pile just automatically empties. It's also not great that then you have that bonus in your deck, but didn't care about it at all, weren't making a decision there.

Delve has neither issue; it hits the Silver pile rather than a new 10-card pile, and those Silvers have no other abilities.

But then it seems that folks avoid buying Silver anyways, as it's another "non-engine piece"

116

Dominion General Discussion / What are some of the cases of "halfway point" you've experienced?

« on: June 24, 2018, 02:09:11 pm »

Basic rule of thumb is usually # of Provinces left in games with just that, and no Colonies:
2p: 4 Provinces
3p: 6
4p: 6
5p: "7.5", so either 7 or 8 left
6p: 9

Any other unique cases that stood out?  Either you knew of it far ahead of time, or you initially missed it, and were way past that "halfway point" by the time you did notice.

For me:
1) One case, Ill-Gotten Gains and another card were the group's "faves" in a 4p game.  Well, IGG also empties the Curses in sync, and as that other card was emptying, it hit us that yeah, if you haven't greened up, NOW's the time!

2) In a BSW 3p game when it was just base game...
We had a rush on 3 piles.  We've managed to trash our starting Estates, but when it was down to 1 pile left, *I* had an "epiphany" where I'd better get more points, and so did that other player!  I played a Festival and managed to buy an Estate and Duchy.  Before me, one other player managed to buy 2 Estates.  The end score was me: 4, that player: 2, and p3: 0!

3) Salt The Earth
It was difficult getting to $8, but $4 for Salt The Earth wasn't as improbable.  As such, the # of $4 turns was the thing that was setting the pace of the game.  Not $8 Buys.

117

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box

« on: June 24, 2018, 01:19:13 pm »

Further complicating this is that in 1st edition Base set, gold was (arguably) the best card in the game. I'm guessing a lot of people didn't challenge that assumption and always go for gold, and try to play as many gold as possible. Gold does have it's place in today's game too. When it's not possible to build a treasureless deck, gold will provide economy. I think in some situations, having access to the treasure cards drastically speeds up the game. Gold and silver a re a fail safe that can keep a boring kingdom from being a boring and painfully slow kingdom. Keeping the game fun for as many people as possible is the goal, not making the best things for a 2 player game.

And even then, its replacement, Bandit ("Thief 2.0") STILL gives you a Gold, perpetuating that ideal.

I guess I feel like, in terms of testing cards, what's the difference between 2 players and 3+ players? Well, if a card is great in multiples, then you'll want to be sure it's not crazy if you can get 6 copies of it, like you might in a 2-player game. I think the only cards in Nocturne that fit the bill are Idol and Werewolf, though you could make an argument for Vampire. Idol is admittedly way stronger than my group thought it was, though I don't think it's too strong. And we actually discovered that it was strong after Nocturne testing was over when a new player joined our games and went for a heavy-Idol strategy. So we got to see that play out despite it not being a 2-player game.

That's interesting because I just assumed that there would be someone on the play testing team who would run a "test case" like "spam all the cards" on a card-by-card basis.  OTOH, you folks also have a lot of other use cases to get through, so I digress.

Basically, if there's a rush for something, it can disappear a lot quicker than you think!...
The only village
The only +Buys (although unlike the branch actions, you may not need as many of these)
Heavy Attack board, but Lighthouse is the only defense
Arms race to fling out curses, so rush for the Cursers

This also has the side effect of causing the game to end earlier than think...
1) One case, Ill-Gotten Gains and another card were the group's "faves" in a 4p game.  Well, IGG also empties the Curses in sync, and as that other card was emptying, it hit us that yeah, if you haven't greened up, NOW's the time!

2) In a BSW 3p game when it was just base game...
We had a rush on 3 piles.  We've managed to trash our starting Estates, but when it was down to 1 pile left, *I* had an "epiphany" where I'd better get more points, and so did that other player!  I played a Festival and managed to buy an Estate and Duchy.  Before me, one other player managed to buy 2 Estates.  The end score was me: 4, that player: 2, and p3: 0!

118

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box

« on: June 23, 2018, 03:02:47 pm »

but online doesn't create revenue for Donald X.

Is this true (zero revenue for Donald) or just mostly true (tiny revenue compared to IRL)? Curious.

For the last year of MF, our share of the take was $0. But yes, tiny is the correct answer.

Not that I do that math to decide how to playtest. I have people that want to play, I play with that many people.

There were two-player online games from very early on, because I wrote a program for playing online and we used that. And then there was isotropic for all those years.

Always interested in hearing the inside scoop about how digital games get made, so it was neat when Stonemaier Games did a blog post about making bg into digital implementations here...
https://stonemaiergames.com/the-truth-about-digital-board-games/

Some highlights:
-costs can vary greatly, but one typical cost is $100K
-typical split from sales of the game is 80/20, with 80% going to the developer studio, and 20% to the publisher/designer

-SM Games prefers companies over individuals
-My Little Scythe on Tabletopia took weeks to implement, but a "proper" app took 2+ years to get onto Steam Beta
-digital bg have driven up sales of the boxed versions
-digital bg don't make much money, if at all

-some of the companies that specialize in making bg include, but not limited to:
Asmodee Digital
DigiDiced
Handelabra Studio
Mobo Studios
Playdek
Temple Gate Games
The Knights of Unity
Fay Games

119

Puzzles and Challenges / Best way to buy Dominate on this board (if at all)?

« on: June 22, 2018, 03:36:55 am »

Guardian	Taxman
Monastery	Den of Sin
Fool	Harvest
Farming Village	Idol
Skulk	Soothsayer

P-C: No
Shelters: Yes

EVENTS:
Delve, Plan
Mission, Salt The Earth
Lost Arts, Dominate

LANDMARKS: Arena, Museum, Tomb, Wolf Den

I did my 3/4 something with T1 Plan on Skulk, T2 buy Skulk and trash a Shelter.

Can't recall the details, but also something like Lost Arts and Plan on Harvest, trying to trash as many cards as possible.   I got to $13 one time, and then $12 on another turn.  But that was as close as I got to being able to buy Dominate.


EDIT: table format 

120

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Mountain Pass

« on: June 22, 2018, 03:31:17 am »

If there are Baths, may as well be reaping an additional 2pts per turn paying off that Debt!

121

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: What's the most money possible to have?

« on: June 22, 2018, 03:27:29 am »

-Has to be a legal game of Dominion (finite piles, Colonies only if there's Prosperity, can't have three piles gone, stuff like that)

I thought having at least 1 Prosperity in the Kingdom cards for Colony to also be out was never a rule, but merely a suggestion.  If so, would P-C still be off limits?

Also, why not 3 piles?  The game doesn't end until you end your turn.

122

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Kingdom Designs

« on: June 22, 2018, 03:18:05 am »

A slow player? Easy on the villages and cantrips.

I need to do this more in my IRL games. There's one player in my main group who's just slow as molasses, at any game. We played a 4-player game of Kingdom Builder yesterday and her turns took as long as the rest of our turns put together. And for one of the three of us, it was their first game.

To her credit, she wins Kingdom Builder frequently. Not that time, though.

One of our exceptions was Crossroads, since it's a "branch action", but only for the first one you play.  Perhaps Throne Room or Kings Court on "chain" (exactly +1 action).


There was one 3p game where it was one guy, but the other 2 people weren't "running on all cylinders", and they were new to Dark Ages (around when it first came out).  B/c of that, they had to reread many of the cards over and over for each of their turns.  That one game took 1.5 hours.  I was playing in another room, and shocked to hear that was their only game all that time!  The other group I was in managed to get in two games of Ticket To Ride (Nordic Countries, and Marklin).  It should be the other way around! 

123

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Fix the worst cards

« on: June 19, 2018, 02:18:25 am »

Fun thread exercise! 

For those worried that fixing the bottom ranked cards will now create a new bottom ranked cards ... it doesn't have to be a perpetual cycle.  We're just worried "adding points" to the bottom rank to improve them.   It's OK to have a new bottom ranked cards  since they were previously NOT in the bottom ranked cards hence, were decent to begin with.

124

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Community/Fan Expansions: Do you use them? If so, how do you integrate them?

« on: June 16, 2018, 12:14:51 am »

Unless your sleeves are really loose, you shouldn't need tape to stick a proxy image to your card. Just put the piece of paper between the front of the card and the sleeve and you're good. I've been doing this for years, and it works perfectly.

I sleeved the base game, and was able to play 5p by using Curses and blanks as extra Coppers, Estates, and Provinces.

125

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Favorite Thematic Cards (part 2)

« on: June 15, 2018, 11:51:12 pm »

Guides, Hunting Parties, lead to Gold at Tunnels

Nearly all the cards involving royalty allow you to perform additional effects

Nearly all the cards involving land gets you pts.