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The thing I don't understand about the treasure-trove-enables-money-strategies discussion is that trade is so much better for terminal draw big money and yet has been passed over while treasure trove has gotten so much attention.

Dominion League / Re: Season 15 - Results
« on: June 15, 2016, 11:05:25 pm »
tracer 6 - 0 crlundy

Calamitas and I played some number of games 6 or above, and I won 4 or more of them. We think it was 4-2, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were actually 5-3.

High number of really interesting kingdoms including both a not stupid rebuild and an interesting cultist.
Good games.

Being able to "hide" royal carriages makes fully rebuilding completely unnecessary though. Careful timing at the end of copper pile is all that is needed (and is much meaner) - just never allow the opponent to get to 3 copper, then when you do, buy a silver, get the opponent back down to 0 cards with you having the silver, and then empty the estates.

Does this work if your opponent makes sure to always leave an even number of coppers in the supply after their turns? Then you'll get back to 3 copper on the same turn that they do.
Yes, and I actually did the particular game in the log maintaining an even number of coppers in the supply for my turns to ensure that I wasn't about to say something stupid.

I buy the 6th to last copper on my turn 43. Turn 44 I do a manipulation with masquerade to make it so that the bot is back to 0 cards and I am at 1 copper with 4 left in the supply. So then even though I will be buying the "even" copper, the bot will only get to two of them.
The manipulation in turns 47 and 48 is actually the real trick - requires perfect ordering. This pin actually gives you complete control over both your and your opponent's deck when maintained, but reducing the opponent to 0 cards while having the correct one yourself is tricky.

That being said, I would recommend practicing the endgame on this one if you think you are going to pull it off against someone who is going to be persistent about not giving up - otherwise you set yourself up for a draw or loss - and it may also give you an idea about how to disrupt an opponent if you wish to be persistent yourself. A bit of a pain in the current online version - having the new one's logs would really help.

I successfully executed the Masquerade/RC pin! In this particular case, Quarry and Save were very helpful so I could get my pin going on Turn 11 already. (Not strictly, opponent bought Save and I had to pass one more card, so T12 it began officially). I completely missplayed the early game, I could have definitely began earlier.

My opponent resigned in the rebuilding phase unfortunately, but there was no real coming back for him.

I'll post the log tomorrow when it's available!
Great (maybe?) to hear! Looking forward to seeing the log from a human v. human game. Though, to be honest, this is probably the worst thing to come out of Adventures.

Being able to "hide" royal carriages makes fully rebuilding completely unnecessary though. Careful timing at the end of copper pile is all that is needed (and is much meaner) - just never allow the opponent to get to 3 copper, then when you do, buy a silver, get the opponent back down to 0 cards with you having the silver, and then empty the estates.
Log for this against a bot:

Dominion League / Re: Season 15 - Results
« on: June 09, 2016, 05:50:33 pm »
tracer 4.5 - 1.5 dmet

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Dark Ages: Feodum
« on: June 05, 2016, 04:29:53 pm »
I played a kingdom with Amulet, Raid, and Feodum, and there were plenty of times when Raid was preferable to anything else.

Tournaments and Events / Re: Online tournament scavenger
« on: June 01, 2016, 02:17:28 am »
I am still good for it as well - will wait on scheduling information until the last spot is filled.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Favorite Attack Bracket
« on: May 21, 2016, 12:29:39 pm »
When it discards Goons from the top of your deck sure you get a goons, but it just prevented you from playing one of your good cards during this shuffle. That could be a sizeable attack if it's the only goons in your deck. Sure, that won't always happen, but 9 times out of 10 it will either discard a good card or junk with a bad one.
Sea Hag.

But to be honest, I think you are missing the point. You claimed that jester was somehow more favoritism-inducing than goons as an attack because the isolated attack from goons is not that interesting. I claim that jester is the same way, and so when you say that goons votes are only for the non-attack and this somehow gives jester some higher ground, you are mistaken. I couldn't care less why I vote for goons, but this as a reason to vote against it is poor.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Favorite Attack Bracket
« on: May 21, 2016, 11:36:54 am »
You guys are voting for goons because it's an alt-vp card, not because it attacks. Goons doesn't deserve to win, most of the time the attack is the icing on the cake and it's the VP's your after. It does all the end-of turn-stuff? If it's the last turn the attack means nothing.* Jester's central focus is an attack. And it can get you goons.

That sounds kind of like a gainer to me. The potential for attack is variable and only sometimes hits. So jester is just a gainer which sometimes happens to attack when it doesn't do it's real job (edge cases with guaranteed cursing accepted, and as an added bonus, I don't really care). Goons is alt-vp which always attacks. Hmmmm.


Dominion League / Re: Season 15 - Signups
« on: May 12, 2016, 10:14:30 pm »
Finally sure that I will have the time.

MF Username: tracer
Time zone: America/Los Angeles (though times when I am free will be random enough it shouldn't matter)
All expansions if that does matter.

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Schedule matches with f.ds just for fun
« on: May 04, 2016, 12:34:49 pm »
Anyone with Adventures free between May 04, 2016, 01:00:00 pm & May 04, 2016, 06:00:00 pm? Be interested in a few adventures games to see if it's worth buying on MF.
Yeah, sure. Half hour unless you say sooner.

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« on: April 26, 2016, 09:45:46 pm »
Two trains leave stations 456 miles apart at the same time and travel toward each other. One train travels at 105 miles per hour while the other travels at 85 miles per hour. How long will it take for Making Fun to release Dominion: Adventures? Show your work -- do not do any rounding.

Never will. They are on a different track.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« on: April 21, 2016, 11:21:37 am »
Golden deck is definitely a combo.

Trying to create one with bishop only will lose you the game in non-spectacular fashion. Chapel isn't the only card that can do it but the number of cards which can get you into a golden deck with any sort of speed is extremely limited. So call it a combo involving bishop and a strong and cheap trasher. The different ways to play it once you get there are more of a testament to its strength than defining characteristics.

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Alchemist
« on: April 20, 2016, 01:52:20 am »
I feel like I'm very bad at playing Alchemist, and knowing when to go for it. I've been beaten by opponents who went for it when there didn't seem to be a good payload and I've been beaten going for it when I saw what I thought was good payload. What makes you want to go for alchemist and what makes you want to ignore it?

It would seem counter-intuitive, but I think the uncontested alchemist stack actually shines most when the payload is very weak (think, say, woodcutter or militia, herbalist and margrave are better respectively). In that case, a big engine will be extremely slow to get running, and so the alchemist stack with some big treasures would actually outpace it, whereas the money will either be slowed down enough by the attack or get out-powered by the +buy.

Thing is, +2 cards is draw, but not a lot. An alchemist stack also usually requires a little bit of trashing or good filter, so that is something to watch for. Even trade route gets enough of a job done.
With fast junking alchemist tends to not be worth it if you cannot clean up afterwards for the same reason as the above point.

Also sometimes there is a nice village/payload but it needs draw. +2 cards is draw. Even more convenient when it is non-terminal and always present. Of course same requirements apply as to the stack.

Ignoring is when you can get a village/draw engine up faster (gainers or really strong payload) than the alchemists and with consistency (heavy trashing). But +2 cards is also draw. Even more convenient when it is non-terminal and always present.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« on: April 19, 2016, 03:22:10 pm »
One thing I'd like to add: if I'm not mistaken, the distinction between the 'five main deck types' was first established back when people thought Pirate Ship was a good card. So it's probably best to take strategy insights from back then with a grain of salt.

Deck type articles out in 2013... Pirate Ship on 5 worst 4 costs in 2011... not so much, but point taken.

Deck type is more of a goal than a game type (hence why it is called deck type and not game type - duh) and the five fundamental ones is still quite relevant simply because putting a name on something helps a person to better understand it.
I think that there is a sixth which Awaclus sort of mentioned with mass baker and Dingan wrote a bit about as I was writing this that is what I will call the monolith, which is play a non-terminal certain action card as often as possible because there is nothing else to do, which is occasionally classified as something like a "one card engine" on the wiki, but that is not the entirety of it. People tend to hate the cards which make strong monoliths (rebuild and minion) and like the ones which make weak ones (hunting party, laboratory, baker) because they better fit into a traditional engine. Thinning helps both but is too slow when looking at the strong ones.

Dominion Articles / Re: LSD: payload
« on: April 18, 2016, 03:32:06 am »
The difference between good plays and Payloads thus seems to be VP gaining. You know that Butcher is great for milling Provinces and getting them, so you get it as a Payload. Maybe there's another game where Butcher isn't great, but suddenly, you decide you need one for non-VP reasons. It's not a payload if it's not getting you points. I would define payload as "Potential for point gaining".

This. Payload is how you make up for the fact that you have been buying stuff instead of points, so it is either in the form of produce high amounts of points in a short amount of time, which is I guess the more classical idea of an engine, or in the form of be able to no doubt buy a high-value victory card each turn, in which case the engine is more about speed versus the money strategy.

In the latter case, the engine's payload is economy and is usually the result of strong trashing and/or a strong non-junking attack while lacking +buy.

The former case is more what the descriptions above are about, and is more variable. Obviously there is the classic economy and +buy, but stuff like remodel variants or goons can make an appearance. In either case, this is the one where the three pile endings tend to happen quite a bit more often because there is the potential for all the gaining, and this also tends to require a much larger engine, the creation of which depletes piles to begin with.

The engine on this board is of the second type, though I think that the best money strategy which looks something like witch/soothsayer/1-2 counterfeit/2-3 wharves here is being somewhat underrated. With good luck, it can get a vp lockout by around turn 17, and based on my games against bots (yeah, okay) on average around turn 20 if the margrave is not coming in hard early with the curse split usually 5-5 or 6-4 in its favor. Playing against my engines (which are not the greatest), it was probably about 50-50, with most of those games being able to tell what the result was going to be by about turn 10.
Having said that, an engine strategy that does not buy soothsayer will lose to it even if it gets a margrave in every turn by about turn 12, which is unusual with a lookout/silver opening. There is just not going to be enough power to make up 4-5 provinces once it gets going. Soothsayer/remodel is the way in which you make up this point deficit, sometimes even to the point that you want two of each. Then again, this board is more about ordering of 5-costs.

Assuming a lookout/silver opening, with villages being bought on 3 and 4 unless one gets far behind thinning, in which case second lookout.
Regardless of what the opponent is doing, the first one is witch unless it is turn 8, in which case see below and you are probably already screwed.
Against money, the margrave pretty much needs to be bought by turn 10 if you don't want a game coming down to the wire - late margraves tend to help the money strategy more than hurt it, so getting them up early is key. If lucky, it is your third 5 buy after counterfeit, if not, it is your second. Against an opposing engine, I am fairly sure wharf over margrave unless you are hitting 5 for the third time on turn 6ish (again, early hurts more), and even then maybe not. Once again, the second five is counterfeit.
First soothsayer once the deck is getting about 4/5 drawn. At this point it is usually not drawing the opponent a card
First remodel once the deck is getting all the way drawn. This is actually your only way to target-trash stuff and turns lookout(s) into either wharf or second soothsayer.
If needed to catch up on points, second remodel.

At least that is how I would go about the engine. Possibly slow against in a mirror, but in that case nowhere near as many points have to be scored, so the second soothsayer or remodel is probably unnecessary. A lookout/silver opening might be wrong since it can have issues hitting 5, and I think these issues are where a lot of the strength of the money lies.

Tournaments and Events / Re: 3P online tournament
« on: April 03, 2016, 02:40:52 pm »
No logs - but with the other format.

Game 1:
1st: faust, 2nd: tracer, 3rd: Lekkit

Game 2:
1st: Lekkit, 2nd: tracer, 3rd: faust

Game 3:
1st: faust, 2nd: tracer, 3rd: Lekkit

Game 4:
1st: Lekkt, 2nd: tracer, 3rd: faust

Game 5:
1st: faust, 2nd: Lekkit, 3rd: tracer

Game 6:
1st: faust, 2nd: tracer, 3rd: Lekkit

Tournaments and Events / Re: 3P online tournament
« on: March 25, 2016, 04:11:30 pm »
Gotta start somewhere. /in.

Tournaments and Events / Re: Online tournament scavenger
« on: March 06, 2016, 12:29:23 am »
Scheduling could be interesting, but people seem to be fairly open on weekends, so /in (as seems to be the custom).

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Lost City
« on: March 01, 2016, 01:02:46 am »
Yeah, there is a reason UCS has the U on it: a high number of +2 cards, +2 actions is usually enough to draw your deck and do whatever else you want.

I think the +1 card for opponent on buy is more of a "here, have another card so you may have a chance of not losing this split badly enough that you lose the game with it." With most power cards, they are a rich-get-richer-(and/or)-poor-get-poorer card. The low cost relative to quality and the gaining penalty assists in not letting the lost city split get out of control one way or the other.

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