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226
Let's Discuss ... / Re: empires: capital
« on: July 30, 2016, 08:52:38 pm »
So how good is Capital-Big Money?  Or something like Smithy+Capital+Big Money?

Very marginal. To answer the last question there, the results only change by half a percent to a percent positively for the Capital strategies if I force it to not attach Silvers to its buys.

227
On the board you listed, I think Mine would be a better alternative than Chancellor.  With a simple strategy of buying 1 mine, I get a 49% Mine / 42% Chancellor.   I also beat Chancellor with a more complex Mine/Chapel/Spy/Village setup that has different rules for buying relating to the chapeled deck.   I beat Chancellor by a small margin with Spy/Chapel alone (no Mine) as well.
It seems I have forgotten the order of the base set super weak money enablers. I am having a really hard time putting myself at fault for that one - going for speed of reply over accuracy on something you are somewhat unfamiliar with while half asleep seems to have consequences for accuracy - who would have thought?
I also would love to see the buy rules for the Spy/Chapel that wins by a small margin - something seems off about that and unlike the other results I have been unable to reproduce it.

However, I do see your point.  There are probably a few kingdoms where  Chancellor - Big Money variants are the best alternative.  Perhaps Cellar, Chancellor, Feast, Moneylender, Spy, Thief, Throne Room, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop?  I don't think I've seen such a kingdom in play before, where the wasn't anything better than Chancellor - Big Money.  Does anyone have thoughts about more likely scenarios where the card is important to buy?
Almost never important (with one possible exception - Stash), but certainly marginal at times. As I said, this article from 2011 is still pretty good (probably because Chancellor is such a weak card): https://dominionstrategy.com/2011/01/28/guest-article-chancellor/

I win by a large margin with Mine as well as with Workshop (generating silver) against Thief or Spy/Thief in this kingdom.  It would be difficult to find a kingdom where there is nothing better than Spy/Thief.
That is a problem with trying to design kingdoms to highlight a weak card only using the base set - so many cards give very small benefits that it is difficult to find enough weaker ones to stick in. Now, give me Intrigue... it can be done.

If you are on today around the same time as your first post yesterday, I would be happy to play some non-base games against you. Send me a private message if/when interested.

228
Game Reports / Re: Post your craziest random kingdoms here
« on: July 25, 2016, 01:49:15 am »
Don't know how to kingdom visualize for non-logs, but the kingdom is this:

Beggar, Smugglers, Storeroom, Tunnel, Pirate Ship, Horn of Plenty, Cache, Venture, Hoard, Bank.
Landmarks: Oasis (smugglers was chosen) and Mountain Pass.

This was a weird game, with Pirate Ship almost being decent and no good action-y things to speak of.
Storeroom/Tunnel begs really really hard for attention.

Craziest random for me was and probably will forever be:
Stonemason, Village, Workshop, Bridge, Conspirator, Gardens, Quarry, Young Witch, Minion, Border Village, Warehouse (bane)

I ended up having the pleasure of watching a game of a league championship match with this kingdom.

229
Well let's see... straight up Chancellor money beats straight up money 52 - 40, so sure, I can design a kingdom in which Chancellor should be bought - something like Cellar, Chapel, Chancellor, Feast, Mine, Spy, Thief, Throne Room, Village, Workshop.
Spy/Thief money is the best strategy not involving Chancellor, gets beat by Chancellor money 55% to 39%, which is fairly significant - the best strategy against Chancellor is straight up money, which loses as stated above. It is a small, but certainly significant, benefit to be able to play your newly bought cards sooner.
In this case, I feel like this is more of an example than a specific kingdom, but is enough to show that Chancellor given terminal space can easily be better than Silver. The article on the wiki is still fairly relevant for this difference.

Thief tends to be absolute garbage against a competent opponent (which the simulator bots are, to some extent). Thief money is barely better than straight up money, beating it 49 - 45. Going Spy/Thief improves that to 53 - 41, and absolutely destroys decks that try to thin out Copper, but gets beat by just about anything which doesn't use treasure for economy.
So yeah, I can design a kingdom in which buying Thief is the correct move: Cellar, Chapel, Feast, Mine, Moneylender, Spy, Thief, Throne Room, Village, Workshop. If your opponent doesn't buy Thief, they will probably lose.
This may be the only kingdom entirely from the base game in which buying Thief is the right thing to do.

Best of luck moving on from the base game.

230
#115 - Tunnel
They even had graffiti back then. Those are some large veins of gold. You'd think someone would have mined this already.
I always thought they were roots

Man, I want to see some of the trees where you live.

231
Dominion League / Re: Season 16 - Results
« on: July 24, 2016, 12:35:28 pm »
D1:

tracer 4-2 microman

232
Let's Discuss ... / Re: empires: settlers and settler's village
« on: July 22, 2016, 07:20:44 pm »
People should note that these two cards are slightly lighter than the rest and as such have a tendency to end up near the top of your deck while shuffling.

No, it's not just you.

233
Dominion Articles / Re: Delve: A Brief Overview
« on: July 22, 2016, 05:00:21 pm »
I haven't done the sims to back this up, but I would wager that given optimal strategies, BM/Masterpiece/X will beat BM/X for any kingdom card X.

Easy cases where this isn't true: discard attacks (excluding Margrave), Fool's Gold. Reasons are pretty obvious and the simulator backs both up.

But yeah, Masterpiece is very good for money strategies - like, improvement by 3-12 percent in any other case just buying Masterpiece on 7 with no other optimization. Faster strategies and other silver flood strategies naturally are not affected as much.

Having said that, Delve tends to be better than Masterpiece in these strategies based on what I have seen with the simulator so far - speed is very important in money strategies and Delve is just plain faster.

234
Game Reports / Re: Spy vs. Apothecary
« on: July 20, 2016, 06:50:55 pm »
I don't think you'd want to buy extra Coppers though. That is generally an awful idea.

Usually those two Coppers are haggled off of Apothecary or in an unfortunate case Spy. If Apothecary is out and you have the money in play, by all means spike Platinum, but if the necessary little bit of economy can come while building something a little bit more robust, it is just a little bit better.

235
Game Reports / Re: Spy vs. Apothecary
« on: July 20, 2016, 06:12:38 pm »
Played it against a bot a bunch of times.

The Apothecary/Spy engine is definitely the way to go here - with Copper economy being the fastest.

- Open Trade Route/Potion.
- Trade Route only to trash estates, buy Apothecary whenever possible and Spy or nothing otherwise.
- Get a Haggler. Haggle (or buy) 2 Coppers at some point.
- Buy Colony, haggling a Spy with each until the third or fourth, then Platinum. Off turns should be Spy, Apothecary if the Potion and any Apothecarys are still around.
- Once the deck falls apart, anything goes to get to Colony.

Gold is way worse than Spy. Platinum is about equal with Spy until the deck starts to fall apart, after which it is better. Deck falls apart sooner in a mirror since one has less Apothecarys, so Platinum comes earlier. With 6 or 7 Apothecarys and Spys, drawing 9 Copper + Haggler is fairly easy.

The bot which plays this board the best is Warlord Bot.

236
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Storyteller glitch
« on: July 20, 2016, 03:00:38 pm »
This is supposed to happen...

Storyteller converts all of your coin into draw, doesn't matter where it comes from.

237
Dominion League / Re: Season 16 - Results
« on: July 16, 2016, 04:23:25 pm »
D1:

tracer 4 - 2 jamfamsam

238
Let's Discuss ... / Re: empires: $5s that require a lot of deciding
« on: July 14, 2016, 10:02:25 pm »
^ Yeah, lab on play...

239
Simulation / Re: Bug Reports for Geronimoo's simulator
« on: July 14, 2016, 09:10:04 pm »
Archive in current implementation is incorrect... it currently draws a card before setting aside the three cards and choosing.

This was leading to some really stunning Big Money results... it would be pretty sweet if the card actually did that.

240
Let's Discuss ... / Re: empires: $5s that require a lot of deciding
« on: July 14, 2016, 09:07:24 pm »
100000 game simulation on Geronimoo's simulator has mass Archive (Gold on 6, Archive on 5, Province once it gets 1 gold and standard duchy rules for money strategies) beating double Jack 49.5% to 46%.

Sadly this simulation does not correspond to real life because Archive is implemented incorrectly in the simulator... if Archive drew you a card in addition to its other effects this would be the case, but it doesn't. It may still be a very good money card especially when combined with Militia/Soothsayer/the-like but it is indeed, as both I and drsteelhammer would have guessed, not that good.

241
Dominion League / Re: Season 16 - Results
« on: July 14, 2016, 08:44:54 pm »
D1:

tracer 5 - 1 MtMagus

242
Let's Discuss ... / Re: empires: $5s that require a lot of deciding
« on: July 14, 2016, 07:32:43 pm »
Mass Archive big money is about even with somewhat better than double Jack speed wise, for what that's worth.

what? any proof? That doesn't seem right to me

Uhh, yeah... my reaction exactly.

100000 game simulation on Geronimoo's simulator has mass Archive (Gold on 6, Archive on 5, Province once it gets 1 gold and standard duchy rules for money strategies) beating double Jack 49.5% to 46%. And then think about how the simulator probably plays Jack better than Archive.

Think of it as a Gear you can't see ahead of time.

243
Let's Discuss ... / Re: empires: $5s that require a lot of deciding
« on: July 14, 2016, 07:11:04 pm »
Mass Archive big money is about even with somewhat better than double Jack speed wise, for what that's worth.

244
Okay, logs as promised - and in a place where nobody will see them.

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160712/log.0.1468349551364.txt
I go for trashing first and heralds second while Lekkit goes for heralds first, but is able to get to trashing quickly enough. I decide at some point to buy Gold over a Conspirator, but it does not come back to haunt me as we each decide to take the sure tie rather than mess with our somewhat delicate decks.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160712/log.0.1468350032991.txt
I open Jack because it is Jack and Lekkit opens Miser, at which point I see the half-engine and prepare to lose. Then I get this awesome draw the second shuffle and decide that Jack + HP should work as a money strategy (it does, but not very well). It ends up being quick enough that Lekkit decides they needs to start catching up in points, and miscounts their way to a one point loss, although it is questionable whether delaying a turn would have made a difference.

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160712/log.0.1468350364514.txt
With no draw, this is a money board all the way. Lekkit ends up with a 5/2, which is a bit unfortunate, but not not losing. We both go for approximately the same money strategy, and I win with a province after they bet against me being able to reach it.

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160712/log.0.1468351117646.txt
It was my turn to try an engine and come up short, although noticing that bank existed would have helped me both in not making that decision and may have helped me quite a bit even after making it. Lekkit goes Wharf/Bank and although I am able to keep pace with it for a little bit, my Apothecary engine, like most others, stalls hard on green and they run away with the victory.

Game 5: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160712/log.0.1468352160365.txt
I had this dream of playing a bunch of Minions with Grand Markets followed by a bunch of Soldiers and going out in a blaze of green glory buying all the provinces in one turn. Losing the Minion split did not help at all with that plan, but I pulled it together just enough for two turns to obtain a lead that was fairly insurmountable without me hitting a few duds and Lekkit building up. A person looking at the log will not appreciate how I carefully played my copper even when I did not need to in order to put chains over the Grand Market pile and prevent Lekkit from seeing how low it was getting, a trick which allowed me to whimper the game to an end.

Game 6: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160712/log.0.1468352887540.txt
A super ugly game with Haunted Woods as the only draw. We split the curses but Lekkit having more Haunted Woodses allowed them to line up provinces with tournament while I was unable to do so. Lekkit got to over 50% VP and with our decks as miserable as they were I resigned to save time.

Game 7: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160712/log.0.1468353651406.txt
A Sea Hag war gave into building back up through trashing. I decided to go super-thin and try something elaborate but lost too much time doing so as Lekkit smartly began to buy provinces. I put a final nail in my coffin by playing a haggler instead of butchering it and the resulting junk prevented me from having any chance of taking advantage of two piles being empty.

Game 8: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160712/log.0.1468354130016.txt
Hey, we ignored peasant! I was tempted to try to do a megaturn with Miser, but decided I would be better off keeping it simple. My version of money involved thinning a little and getting lots of Fool's Gold whereas Lekkit's was Bandit Camp with Baron. The game ended up loser than I thought it would, and the speed with which I was able to nearly single-handedly empty the Provinces killed any thought that there may have been a fancy strategy that actually worked well enough to pursue.

245
Tournaments and Events / Re: Seprix's Lame Tournament
« on: July 13, 2016, 01:09:14 am »
I am guessing I will have other things finished up by the time this actually starts, so /in.

246
Simulation / Re: Capital BM
« on: July 12, 2016, 10:05:21 pm »
Tried different numbers of Capitals. 1 was best as a static number.

Since I was doing static numbers for Capital, my de-optimization of Smithy was converting it to a static number of Smithys rather than having a fluid number based on money density.

247
Simulation / Re: Capital BM
« on: July 12, 2016, 09:04:46 pm »
Seeing as how this was never fully resolved, I went ahead and ran the simulation to confirm what had been said.
I de-optimized Smithy-BM a bit because that was easier to do than fully optimizing Capital-BM.

Smithy over Capital 61-33
Capital over BMU 55-38
Smithy w/ Capital over Smithy 50-45

248
Yeah, Lekkit and I played. I won 4-3 (with one tie).

A money strategy won 4 of the games, so you know, engines suck.
I will post some logs with post-commentary tomorrow.

If we I schedule my location at the time of the final correctly I might be able to stream it.

Edited to not make Lekkit look like an incompetent scheduler.

249
Simulator work says:

Two Catacombses starting greening at 18 money in deck beats minion stack which starts greening at 6 minions in deck (both give highest win percentages against other) 64-31.

Two Journeymans starting greening at 18 money in deck beats minion stack which starts greening at 6 minions in deck (both give highest win percentages against other) 65-30.

30% is not 0%. Crap happens.

250
Game Reports / Re: Watch my opponent and I make so many mistakes...
« on: June 30, 2016, 02:02:46 pm »
This is a great example of black market making people do really silly things and making the game last 10 turns longer than it should.

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