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Messages - Loschmidt

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1
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: July 27, 2016, 11:17:13 pm »
There isn't a single terminal that has +1 card as part of it* - was that an active design choice? There are plenty of terminal attacks that either have +2 cards or +$2, did you ever consider putting +1 card +$1 on one of those just for the novelty?

*okay technically Pawn can be.

2
OP nailed it. DXV is an excellent designer and realises the best part of building an engine is the challenge of putting it together and that is made all the better if it isn't simple. Like the first game I actually won while using rats. Empires is full of engine pieces that can be a perfect component to a satisfying deck but aren't just automatically good.

3
Buying silvers on 3 greatly inhances the chance of hitting 4 +
So 9 turns is a reasonable estimate.

But that's buying a card, which was deemed unnecessary at the start. ;)

So I tried some super simple simulation via proxy on Dominiate to answer Asper's question: "Can I reach $4 seven times before you reach $8 twice?"

Here's the code for the Salt strategy:

Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'PureSalt'
  requires: ['Great Hall']
  gainPriority: (state, my) ->
    if state.supply.Colony?
      [
      ]
    else
      [
          "Great Hall" if my.coins > 3
          "Silver"
      ]
}

Great Hall is a proxy for Salt the Earth here.  It buys StE with 4+ and Silver otherwise.  Obviously I can't run this thousands of times to see what wins, but I can run single games a few times and check the game log to see when the 7th Great Hall is purchased.

Results from 10 trials:

10
10
9
10
9
8
10
11
10
11

Mean: 9.8
Mode: 10 (5 times)

It hit a speedy 8 turns once, a slow 11 turns twice.

Now here's a naive Smithy bot that rushes Provinces. 

Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'RushSmithy'
  requires: ['Smithy']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"   
    "Gold"
    "Smithy" if my.countInDeck("Smithy") < 2 \
             and my.numCardsInDeck() >= 16
    "Smithy" if my.countInDeck("Smithy") < 1
    "Silver"
  ]
}

When does it buy the second Province?  10 trials:
10
13
8
11
8
8
10
10
8
8

Mean: 9.4
Mode: 8 (5 times)

It hit a speedy 8 turns a whopping 5 times, but a slow 11 turns once and an abysmal 13 turns once. 

It's close, but it looks to me like going for Provinces has an edge here.  Pure Salt is more consistent while the rush can be pretty blistering to 2 Provinces.  However, these are both naive approaches, and I'd guess that the rush has overall more control and flexibility which will give it the edge when played responsively.  OTOH, buying the 2nd Province vs. the 6 StE buys is only achieving an equal score, so that's a point in Salt's favour.

There's lots of strategic wiggle room here for optimization though -- the rush might be using something worse than Smithy, both parties could be buying/trashing Duchy, the Province rush could potentially make use of Salt the Earth as well.

But I think my argument stands.  You shouldn't neglect buying cards even if you intend to Salt all the way down.  You should certainly take Silver at least, and you will probably be better served by buying at least a few other things as well.

Edit: I also just noticed the second Smithy rule in the rush bot that is unlikely to be optimal.  I just edited down the SmithyBM bot and didn't give it much thought, but I'm guessing that getting the second Smithy earlier or not at all may be better (with the current rule, it's probably a waste of time when it happens).

Wow!

You know I just said "why bother buying cards" flippantly, like "here's a lazy scenario where you can get points and do nothing". I never expected it to be good, or even okay. This is the "neat and potentially useful" thread not the "dominant strategy" thread.

I am amazed straight up Salt/Silver can beat a naive smithy BM even occasionally. Although wait we're not running the head to head are we, smithyBM would notice the low provinces and start getting Duchy over gold before that. You'd only need a few Duchies for the smithyBM to break it.

This is really interesting, how do you play StE properly? Looks to me that a BM game could use it to accelerate the endgame if they were winning. I want to see a head to head smithyBM game where one buys StE over Duchy and trashes a Province if it'll put it in the lead. Geronimoo's simlulator has the Empires cards up right? Shame i'm at work.....

4
Simulation / Capital BM
« on: July 12, 2016, 02:22:22 am »
Prediction - Capital BM will rock, easily better than Smithy BM.

Experiment - will have to wait until I get home.....

5
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Reverse Capital
« on: July 12, 2016, 02:17:37 am »
Type: Treasure-Duration
Cost: 4
When you play this take 3D
At the start of your next 2 turns:
+ $4
+ 1 Buy
This is far too strong. Probably a 6$.

Really. Too strong?

This turn, $0, next turn $1, the turn after $4. The benefit is so delayed it has to be good. And remember that becuase it is such a long duration will miss many reshuffles and cycle very slowly. I think it is fun but probably not dominant.
You are assuming here that you got no other coin generating stuff in play. What the card does is this turn -3, next turn and the turn after that +4. That's a coin equivalent of Platinum spread over 3 turns for a mere 4$. My card is just a Gold equivalent spread over two turns and I am pretty sure that it is too strong for 5$.

Swamp hag is a $5 with +$3 next turn and it dishes out Curses on top! I think you're really under estimating the negative impact of the delayed benefit.

You're right though in that thinking about my card as 0/1/4 isn't quite right. The debt can easily be paid off on the turn it is played giving you the spike sooner that I'd imagined. Maybe 4 or 5D would be better.
----------------------
Thinking further on it I'm not sure this is the most interesting way to take the 'reverse capital' concept. I.e. go into debt now for a future benefit. The duration mechanic + debt can allow you to delay a benefit with some fuzzy ground in how good the benefit will be in the future depending on how quickly you can pay off your debts. But that isn't fundamentally different to just a duration card. I think a reserve card would be a better approach.

'Literally Reverse Capital'
Action - Reserve
Take 6D
Put this on your tavern mat
-----------------------
If you have no debt you may call this for +$6 +1 buy

I have no idea what something like that should be priced at, and the debt and +$ could/should both be changed. It is radically worse than capital in most all situations but it does let you sets you up for mega-turns quite well. I also think it would be more interesting without the +buy, so that you need some help setting it up. A guess:

Government Bonds
Action - Reserve $4
Take 4D
Put this on your tavern mat
--------------------
If you have no debt tokens you may call this for +$6

Still seems weak if anything. You need to buy it, play it, pay off the debt, and then cash in. And even then it wont really be that good without support.

6
Salt the earth + Tomb

Why bother ever buying cards

7
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Reverse Capital
« on: July 09, 2016, 06:51:34 am »
Type: Treasure-Duration
Cost: 4
When you play this take 3D
At the start of your next 2 turns:
+ $4
+ 1 Buy
This is far too strong. Probably a 6$.

Really. Too strong?

This turn, $0, next turn $1, the turn after $4. The benefit is so delayed it has to be good. And remember that becuase it is such a long duration will miss many reshuffles and cycle very slowly. I think it is fun but probably not dominant.

Hmmmm....okay because it is a treasure it is easily spammable, okay i'll conceed that it may be a liiiiitle strong. I'll make it a terminal action instead, and i'll cut the +buy but I doubt it'll need to cost $5.

Now even if you have 3 perfectly offset you only get $5/turn from them, and playing 2 on the same turn to get the $8 every 3 turns needs village help.

Government Bonds
Action Duration - $4
When you play this take 3D
At the start of your next 2 turns:
+$4

8
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Split Pile + Event
« on: July 09, 2016, 12:22:04 am »
I also like this concept :D

I think you've got the right idea making the card itself something like a cheap peddler variant - something engine players want to snap up multiples of. But to make it interesting I think the Event underneath should antisynergise with the card itself and perhaps be something a BM+ player would be more interested in. This way you're tempting the player with cheap engine components but then giving other players new options once you've run them out. It would be like a reverse City - you want lots of these....but try not to empty them out. If there were only 2 or so left the BM player would have to consider whether to get one just to access the Event.

-----------
Minecart
$3
Discard a treasure
If you do:
+2 cards
+1 action
+$1
-------------
Event - Gold Mine
$4
Gain a gold
+1 buy
-------------

*This is a just a quick example of my idea that's thematic - Mine Cart compares a little too well to Stables Oasis on reflection. And actually such heavy sifting will help you reach the gold quick, so it doesn't exactly antisynergise with the Event even in an engine. Man designing this shit is hard*

**EDIT: Realised that it would be much worse than Stables, situationally better than Oasis. Probably fine? Probably not good enough to get multiple of though.

9
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« on: July 08, 2016, 11:34:52 pm »
How would a debt attack work?  Maybe something like this:

Quote
Action - $5
Until your next turn, when anyone buys a card, they take 1 debt.  Now and at the beginning of your next turn, +1 Buy.
-------
While this is in play, cards cost $1 and 1 debt less, but not less than zero.

It could be the long-awaited cost increasing card.

Tollgate
$4 - Action-Attack-Duration
At the start of your next turn:
+$3
+1 Buy

While this is in play, cards in the Supply cost <1> more.

The two main problem with cost increasers is that they can lock people out of the game (can't even buy Copper!) and they're confusing with cost reducers.  Using debt solves both of those problems.

Love it to pieces. Simple design. Much more interesting version of troll bridge.

As an aside it absolutely destroys your opponent's gainers, and also your own on your second turn. Interesting anti-synergy.

10
Variants and Fan Cards / Make an attack that dishes out Debt
« on: July 08, 2016, 08:56:08 pm »
The challenge is to make an attack that dishes out debt someone but isn't boring or opressive or too similar to existing cards.

I'll take care of the obvious ones.

------------------
Cost: ~$5
"Some mild benefit to the player"
"Each other player with no debt tokens takes 1D"
------------------
Positives
- you can defend yourself from this attack by already being in debt, i think that's a cute interaction
- pretty simple card
- could be interesting depending on the bonus is gives to the player
Critcisms
- it is just a bridge troll variant/cutpurse that stays relevant late game
Variants
- could be made more powerful/stackable "each other player with fewer than 2/3/4 debt tokens takes 1D" (although that is probably oppressive)

I'll call this next one Debt Collector:
------------------
Cost: ~$5
*A very minor benefit to the player*
Each other player with at least 1 debt token gains a Ruins.
If they did not gain a ruins they take 1 debt token.
------------------
Positives
-Play multiple to bury your opponents under ruins. It is nice to have another ruins attack, a conditional ruiner seems good. Like a torturer variant where you really need to play multiple before you start handing out the crap.
-Also thematic! The debt collectors are wrecking your shit because you're behind on payments
-Heavily discourages anyone going into debt (the compliment to the previous attack!)
-Combos nicely with the previous attack!
-Needs support and setup to be really mean
Criticisms
-occasionally oppressive?
-slow game when everyone is cash poor and filled with ruins? (personally I like the odd slow game thrown into my dominion mix)

Thoughts? I want to see everyone else's take on the debt-firing attack. There has to be a good one out there somewhere

11
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Reverse Capital
« on: July 08, 2016, 08:10:52 pm »
I think the concept has merit....but maybe this need work.

At the moment it isn't especially different from:

Type: Treasure-Duration
Cost: 5
At the start of your next turn:
+ $3
+ 1 Buy

Which frankly is not worth $5.

How about:

Type: Treasure-Duration
Cost: 4
When you play this take 3D
At the start of your next 2 turns:
+ $4
+ 1 Buy

12
Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Prosperity Cards: Contraband
« on: July 08, 2016, 06:31:23 pm »
It's a lot stronger now with Adventures and Empires, thanks to Events and debt.

Such a good point about Events...but..how does Debt help it?

13
Simulation / Re: Empires... simulate it
« on: July 07, 2016, 04:27:46 am »
Hey, Making Fun guys, it took me less than a week to code 70 cards.

Oh snap!


another edit: Buying Gold at all is bad for Delve BM. If you're going Delve BM, just buy Silver en mass.

Yeah I was about to say 3 silvers >> 1 gold for straight up BM.

So how does Smithy BM + delve go? Hellishly fast I assume, 4 provinces at T12? Faster?

14
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Stonemason/Hamlet/Poorhouse
« on: July 07, 2016, 04:11:01 am »
!

You may have heard of the tale of Celestial Chameleon.

Okay i'll bite. What is the tale of Celestial Chameleon?

15
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: July 06, 2016, 09:09:57 pm »
Was there ever an attack that gave out debt? It seems like a pretty basic idea so I assumed you tried it. I suppose it either ends up boring or dominant like most obvious ideas.

Oh wait -  it would be too similar to Bridge Troll?
I considered such an attack multiple times, but did not ever try one. One issue is making sure it isn't too oppressive; another is, given that, making it not too much like Bridge Troll. I might have managed to make one meeting those needs but had no obligation, and hey there's already Bridge Troll. And I did do Tax.

Yeah I think Tax is a much more interesting take on the attack :) Gives bastard like me the joy of dismantling someone's strategy by taxing key cards but doesn't actually bury someone under an impossible amount of debt.

I still think there's something cute about the debt version of bridge troll, where the defensive play is to just already be in debt. But I suppose you still get that interaction with the self-inflicted -1 token.

16
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: July 06, 2016, 04:39:39 am »
Was there ever an attack that gave out debt? It seems like a pretty basic idea so I assumed you tried it. I suppose it either ends up boring or dominant like most obvious ideas.

Oh wait -  it would be too similar to Bridge Troll?

17
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Stonemason/Hamlet/Poorhouse
« on: July 06, 2016, 12:30:26 am »
With perfect shuffle luck you can 3-pile on your 8th turn. Because you only need $3 to get 3 cards this is actually more robust than it looks.

Is there a faster 3-pile ending in the game?
Yes.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15683.0

!

18
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Stonemason/Hamlet/Poorhouse
« on: July 05, 2016, 09:30:25 pm »
With perfect shuffle luck you can 3-pile on your 8th turn. Because you only need $3 to get 3 cards this is actually more robust than it looks.

Is there a faster 3-pile ending in the game?

19
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Stonemason/Hamlet/Poorhouse
« on: July 05, 2016, 06:54:42 am »
Seems reasonable with no attacks or anything. You can probably green early and easily pick up extra poor houses and Hamlet's. Three piling seems very likely.

Yeah exactly. Your hamlets enable your poorhouses and give you buys. I wonder how quickly you can 3-pile this setup. i feel like ~10 turns or something bonkers. I'll have to try it and report back.

20
Dominion General Discussion / Stonemason/Hamlet/Poorhouse
« on: July 05, 2016, 02:38:57 am »
With Hamlet and Poorhouse on the board a standard 4/3 opening can net you 2 Stonemasons, 2 Poorhouses and 2 Hamlets. Seems like a solid start to an engine.

Thoughts?

21
Yay! My card made an okay showing. Also I loved the winner, good design. Immediately I wanted to try it out when I read about it.

Also I'd like vote for "Compass" over "Astrolabe" for the name.

22
Just talking about the cards I find interesting. I may or may not find the card I submitted interesting :P

Quote
If I Fell
$4 - Treasure
Worth $2
--
Setup: Add an extra kingdom card pile costing at least as $5 to the supply. Cards from that pile may only be bought if [This Card] is in play.

I really like the idea. Its an attempt to bring an parallel currency to the table. Like a small alchemy game. As people have mentioned at $4 it's a no brainer though. Needs to give less coins or cost more.

Quote
Wait
$5 - Treasure
Worth $4
When you play this, put your deck in your discard pile.
--
While this is in play, you may not discard Treasure cards other than Copper from play until you have finished drawing.

I think it's an interesting idea. But fundamentally I think forcing a bad reshuffle doesn't sound like much fun.

Quote
I Feel Fine
$5 - Treasure
Worth $0
When you play this, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand.
--
When you trash this, each other player gains a Copper.

In the absence of using it as a very mild once off attack, this is a silver gaining silver, I can't see myself buying that often. I think the 'when you trash this' part is the more interesting bit, you should work on that.
Quote
Follow the Sun
$3 - Treasure
Worth $1
--
When you shuffle, you may place any [This Card] cards horizontally at the bottom of your draw pile. During your turn, whenever you would draw a card, except for during your clean-up phase, you may draw a [This Card] instead from its horizontal position.
--
(Rules clarification: [This Card] has a unique yellow background, similar to Stash's red background. If you do not choose to draw this card at a unique time it will be drawn as a normal card.)

I love the idea! But: I take it you thought about it at $5 and +$2, and then you realised it compared too favourably to Stash. However at $3 and +$1 I don't find myself wanting to buy it. Drawing a copper is never exciting. I suppose when you're drawing dead you can assure that you don't draw actions, but it doesn't seem worth it. I think the idea would be great on a terminal action for the exact reverse reason.

Quote
Bulldog
$3 - Treasure
+1 Buy
Worth $3
-
When you discard this from play, if you have at least one unused buy, trash this and gain a Copper on top of your deck.

I really like this one :) I think you should make it $4 (opening with 2 of these seems too tempting), +2 buys and lose the 'gain a copper penalty'.

Quote
Hold Your Hand
$4 - Treasure
+$1
--
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may set that card aside.  Return it to your deck at the end of the game.
--
(Rules clarifications:  It is recommended to use the Island mat for cards set aside this way.)

Upon reading it, I really want to try this one out :) Seems like quite a nice Island variant.

Quote
Walrus
$3 - Treasure
Worth $1
Place a Copper from your hand or the Copper supply on any non-empty supply pile.
--
When a player gains a card other than Copper from a supply pile, he gains all Coppers on that supply pile, as well.
--
(Rules clarification: You may place Coppers on the Copper supply pile. When a Copper is placed on a supply pile other than the Copper pile, place it horizontally so that the card names and costs below show.)

I love the idea of an embargo variant. And it's a copper trasher. Seems fun. But is it quick enough to be worth it? You'd need to get it onto important engine pieces pretty quickly for it to work. Good idea :D

Quote
Julia
$4 - Treasure
Worth $1
--
When you play this you may buy a Treasure card. If you do: put it in play and +1 Buy.

Hmmm. The more I think about this one the more I like it. So if you get a copper, its just like the top part of IGG, +$1 and gain a copper. So that's silver with a penalty. If you get a silver, you've gotten the cost back of the silver, so it was basically a silver gainer using the buy phase. If you get a gold you can also get something with the change, good if you have $11 for gold + province.

Oooh, but what about FG. If you've played 2xFG play this, get an FG put it in play and then you can afford a province! Nice. You can also use it to turn $4-->P in a potions game. That gives you flexibility although it's probably a bit steep. If you have can afford a Bank you can put it in play and immediately get +$5 or so? HoP is interesting too, with enough card variety you could use it to turn $5 into--->HoP--->Province.

I think this is a nice flexible little card, worth it if other alt-treasure are out. But most of the time it is just silver with a penalty I suppose. Maybe it should be cheaper.

Quote
Honey Don't
$3 - Treasure
Worth $2
When you play this, trash a Treasure you have in play, then gain a Treasure costing at most 3 less than the trashed Treasure and play it immediately.
--
(Rules clarification: [This Card] may trash itself, and must if no other Treasures are in play.)

Hmmm, play this get $5 out of you gold. Seems interesting but maybe a bit too similar to counterfeit?


Quote
Strawberry Fields
$3 - Treasure
Set aside a Victory card from your hand. This card is worth half the cost of that card (rounded up) in $, otherwise this is worth $0.
--
During your buy phase, you may buy any set aside Victory card at half its cost (rounded up) in $, you do not need to play this card to buy it.
--
When the game ends, any Victory cards that are still set aside by this card are not returned to your deck.
--
(Rules clarification: Getting back the Victory card works like buying it from supply, it uses a buy and you put it into the discard pile. You can just buy any Victory card you choose, provided that you can afford it and have enough buys. You can use multiple buys to gain as many Victory cards. You can put Vineyard aside, but it'll give you $0, and you can buy it back at $0.)

This compares a little too poorly to salvager.

Quote
Penny Lane
$3 - Treasure
+$3
--
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Curse.

Everyone hates on blood money variants but i think this might be a goer.

23
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Pillage pinning
« on: September 13, 2012, 10:25:49 pm »
You could throw in a Militia or a Ghost Ship after the Pillage just to be a little meaner. I'd think that would very definitely be a virtual pin against most decks.

Exactly, but honestly  is the extra attack support even necessary? A reliable Pillage every turn will surely rip apart most engines and slow down BM drastically.

24
I played a deck recently where Armory enabled a very fast draining of the Vineyard pile - the Armories enabled me to top-deck a potion every turn to ensure I could buy a Vineyard each turn. I am not sure how it would stack up against a more serious strategy, but it was fun.

This.

I assume that was one of the Alchemy/Dark Ages recommended sets? I did the same thing :D Also someone was Cultist-ing me non-stop giving me 10 free actions. I won by quite a bit.

Other than that I don't think I've ever bought 2 potions.

25
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Sarcophagus: A treasure which curses
« on: September 11, 2012, 10:54:16 pm »
This needs to be at least $5.

Agreed. Or the treasure aspect needs to be nerfed. $1? Maybe even $0.

EDIT: Ninja'd

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