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Messages - trivialknot

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576
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Three alt-VP cards
« on: December 07, 2015, 10:59:37 pm »
But next to Island, Cloister looks relatively weak, since it's harder to get rid of and doesn't set aside any other cards.

Is it harder to get rid of? Getting rid of Island but keeping the 2 points is a terminal action; you can get rid of Cloister with any non-terminal trasher or trash-for-benefit, or a buy, and keep the points.
I was just thinking about the "buy a Victory card" method of trashing, which is usually more opportunity cost than playing an action.  But it's true that you could use another trasher.

On the other hand, is that really the point of the card?  Cloister has two main properties: (a) +2 VP even if you trash it, and (b) you can trash it like a hovel.  I thought the main point was (b), but when there are other trashers (a) is the stronger effect.  We could isolate property (b) like so:

Cloister - Victory/Reaction, $3
2 VP

When you gain a victory card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, trash it and +2 VP.

ETA: I guess GendoIkari already suggested this upthread (but with $6 and 3 VP)

577
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Three alt-VP cards
« on: December 07, 2015, 09:21:31 pm »
I enjoyed the whole discussion about the problems with a $6-cost Duchy+, and I agree with LFN.  I had also been trying to design a victory card, and I had to change it because of precisely that problem.

If Cloister is a $4-cost 2VP card, then it starts to look similar to Island.  That's not as bad as the comparison to Duchy, because Duchy is always in play and Island usually isn't.  But next to Island, Cloister looks relatively weak, since it's harder to get rid of and doesn't set aside any other cards.  So maybe it would be better if Cloister cost $3.  Alternatively, you could go bigger!  Maybe $7 or $8 for 4VP.

Re: Labyrinth.  Effectively, this is a cantrip that gives you VP.  The main differences are that you get 2 VP per turn maximum, and it's more reliable (never skipping a shuffle and never colliding).

This strikes me as OP.  If a game lasts 15-20 turns, you could get about 20-30 VP from it instead of wasting your time building an engine or whatever.

578
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Three alt-VP cards
« on: December 07, 2015, 01:47:34 pm »
The fact that Cloister is a victory card causes it to have a supply of 8 (12) cards in a 2 (3+) player game.  I think that's a desirable property.

579
How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

580
Variants and Fan Cards / Mechanics inspired by passing
« on: December 04, 2015, 11:19:11 pm »
1. I was thinking about the mechanic of passing cards.  For example, LastFootNote's Wanderer.

Quote
Wanderer: Action, $3
+4 Cards. The player to your right gains this card.

One of the problems with this is that it's political.  If you buy one, you most help the player on your right.  Ideally, you'd pass a Wanderer to all players, but then that's just a recipe to pile out Wanderers.  So the idea is you have a token to indicate who "really" has the wanderer.  For example, one implementation would be

Quote
Wanderer(2): Action, $3
If you have your Wandering token, then spend it, +4 Cards, and each other player takes their Wandering token.
Otherwise, +1 card, +1 action.

When you buy this, take your Wandering token.

This card is interesting, but not that much like the original, and it loses all the flavor.  So, um, maybe it wasn't a great idea.

2. Earlier, I had suggested another self-passing card, one where you get a bonus for buying it, but otherwise it's a dead card.

Quote
Tedious Tale: Action-Victory, $6
The player on your left gains this card.

When you buy this, +3 VP chips.

So let's try to do that with tokens:

Quote
Tedious Tale(2): Action-Victory, $6
If you have the Tale token, +1 action, +1 card.  Otherwise, take the Tale token.

3 VP

The idea here is that there is only one Tale token that can only be held by one player at a time. Taking the token represents "passing" the card.  But still, it's rather different from the original Tedious Tale, since you can't give your opponent dead cards that they didn't buy themselves.

At this point I'm thinking, forget passing!  This token idea opens up so much more design space.  You could have a card that does something different depending on whether it's contested or not.  For instance:

Quote
Smithing village: Action, $4
If you have the smithy token, +3 cards.  Otherwise, +1 card, +2 actions, and take the smithy token.
Smithing village is probably a terrible idea.  But you see how very simple effects could be combined into a complex card.

3. One more idea!  I wanted to design a card (White Elephant here) which is like Masquerade, but which incentivizes swapping more expensive cards.  I was unsatisfied with it, and it didn't seem to work no matter what I changed.  So I thought, why swap cards between neighbors?  Just swap cards with the last person to play the card.

Quote
White Elephant: Action, $5
+1 action
Reveal a card from your hand.  Have it switch places with the current Gift card.
If you received a card costing less than the one you revealed, then +$3, and you may trash a card from your hand.
------------------------------
Setup: Set aside a silver as the initial Gift card.  The Gift card is not in the supply.

I'm not sure that's balanced.  But you get the idea.

Can you think of any well-balanced cards using these mechanics?

581
Siege Machines: I had missed the fact that it only gives out ruins when it hits a $3-4.  That makes it a lot weaker, and not a great opener.  And as LastFootnote said, it's double strength when it hits.  That's bad because it makes it very chancy.  I think I'd drop the top-decking part, and make it hit more often.

Imp: I think it's better if Imps can trash themselves, because otherwise you have a huge power difference between Imps in kingdoms with other trashing, and Imps in kingdoms without.  Umm... but maybe something else should be changed about the card to make it weaker.

Provincial Revolt: Yeah maybe don't give VP chips to opponents, forget I said that.  I think the vanilla bonus should be changed to be more vanilla though.  Right now it's double-strength when it hits.  I don't know about the rest.  Needs testing.

582
Triumph
Action - $4
You may select an action card from your hand and play it three times. Trash it. Gain an action card costing less than this. SETUP: include ruins in the supply.
Like a cross between king's court and procession, but downgrade's cards and ultimately leaves ruins in its wake.
As written this seems to say, gain a card costing less than Triumph.  Interesting, I have no idea if it's balanced.

Haunted Castle
Action/duration/curse - $6
-3 VP
At the start of each of your next turns for the rest of the game, you may choose one: +1 buy or +1 action. (This stays in play.)
Penalty for a permanent +action or buy. Seems to me a bit weaker than the already-too-strng hireling, and hence balanced. A good boon to either engines or big money.
I think it would work without the VP penalty.

Imp
Action/curse - $3
-2 VP
+1 action
Choose one: +2 cards; +$2; or look through your discard pile and trash a card.
Playing with a good combo of action and negative vp penalty. Modified steward. Does the trash-from-supply effect make it good enough to warrant the point penalty? It also facilitates easy trashing of imps later in the game.
I think the dominating choice here is actually the +2 cards, because that makes it a $3 lab.  Labs are particularly good in trashed-down decks.  And the only penalty is that you have to spend your last shuffle getting rid of all of them.

Provincial Revolt
action/attack -$5
+1 action
+1 VP chip
Each other player must return a victory card from their hand to the supply pile and gain a victory card costing less than it, or reveal a hand with no victory cards. If any other player returned a victory card to the supply this turn, +$3
Development of what seems to be a common card idea.
The problem with VP chip gainers is that they can result in endless games.  That seems particularly problematic here, since it actively discourages victory-card-based strategies, thus discouraging any strategies that would actually end the game.  I think it should trash the victory cards rather than returning them, and opponents should get the VP chips rather than you.

Saturnalia
Action - $6
+1 card
+1 buy
+$3
When you play this card, if you have any unused actions remaining, -1 action
This is a card that rats up 2 actions if available and is difficult to stack, but is not dead if no villages are in the kingdom.
I don't know, people seem to think terminal payoff cards are really weak.  Like Wine Merchant, which gives +$4, +1 buy, and people think it's terrible (even though it's actually awesome).  Anyway, the card seems okay.

Siege machines
Action/attack - $4
+$2
Each other player reveals the top two cards of their deck, trashes one of them costing $3 to $4, and discards the rest. If they trash a card, they gain a ruins on top of their deck.
You may gain a card from the trash costing $3 or $4.
Still trying to figure out the right price point for this, make it better at hitting, etc.
I think this compares favorably to sea hag, which most people consider to be pretty good.  I think the main reason sea hag is powerful is because junking is particularly strong early in the game, and costing $4 allows you to open with it.  Maybe this should cost $5.

583
My impression of this list so far... people really don't like payoff cards, particularly terminal payoff.  Counting house, harvest, wine merchant, mandarin, explorer, merchant ship.  There really aren't too many more (merchant's Guild, haggler, giant, depending on your definition, no I don't think mountebank counts).

I thought there were similar patterns in the $3 and $4 categories.  I guess people think terminal payoff is just bad?

584
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Wording Challenge(Again!): Pickpocket
« on: October 28, 2015, 11:44:43 pm »
It looks like Cutpurse, except that it steals copper.  Cutpurse is already mediocre, does not have a hand size restriction, and stealing copper is usually just bad.  Not to mention that with cutpurses, you'd prefer that your opponents keep their coppers so they have things to discard.  Anyway, I think you could afford to drop the hand size restriction and also buff it in some other way.

I might word it:
"Each other player trashes a treasure from their hand costing up to $2, or reveals a hand with none. You may gain any or all of the trashed cards, putting one of them into your hand."

But then they'd choose the treasure, instead of you.  This wouldn't matter most of the time if it weren't for the pennies.

585
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card ideas for gift
« on: October 28, 2015, 11:08:24 pm »
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!

I'm pretty sure that Ghost Town is not weaker than normal Village. Maybe even stronger. Sure you don't want to discard your actions cards, but in most decks you'll be able to replace them with other actions, while sifting through any junk. So I'd cost t $3. Or you could just have them draw a card to replace each discarded action, in which case it might be a balanced $2, while also reducing wording on the card.
Sifting is good, but mostly you want to sift to get those actions that you just discarded.  On the other hand, I agree that it's not weaker than village.  And maybe I don't want people to buy a bunch of them for cheap, so $3 might be better.

Retirement Fund
$3 Action-Victory
+1 action
Put 1 VP on your tavern mat.  VP on your tavern mat do not count towards your final score.

At the end of the game, for each Retirement Fund in your deck, you may count up to 3 VP on your tavern mat towards your final score.

I like how alt-victory cards encourage all new strategies.  This one encourages you to buy some early, and pick up more in the late game.

I think it is a bit awkward how this card contradicts itself with
"VP on your tavern mat do not count towards your final score." and "...you may count up to 3 VP on your tavern mat..."

It might be a bit better to say
"At the end of the game, for each Retirement Fund in your deck, you may take up to 3 VP tokens from your tavern mat.
I will take that wording suggestion

Tedious Tale
$6 Action-Victory
The player on your left gains this card.
When you buy this, +4 VP chips.

I think this might be too strong.  It reminds me of Ill Gotten Gains.  Your opponent gains the same amount of junk cards, you don't gain a junk card, you gain 3 more point relative to your opponent (4 if they can trash the junk), and it only goes from $5 to $6. 

I guess it junks less in multiplayer games.


Edit: I misinterpreted this one at first glance.  I pictured it passing on buy along with the tokens and being a completely dead card otherwise. the fact that it keeps moving makes it significantly less like IGG.  It is still way better than Duchy with 4 VPs, so it still feels like it should be reduced. I like the idea of making it 2 VP like Accatitippi suggested.
You crossed it out but I think the IGG comparison is fair.  Tedious tale is a weaker junker (half a dead card for each player in 2P), and hurts you more than your opponent.  But it's also 3 VP more than IGG, so that seems pretty strong.

There are several knobs I can tweak: price, VP value, and whether it's passed along when you buy it.  Maybe $6 for 3 VP?  $6 for 2 VP + pass on buy strikes me as weak.  Really it needs testing, and same for Retirement Fund.  Probably most of the testing would be after I present the gift, given that my boyfriend is my usual playmate.

I'd probably proxy the cards by putting numbered labels on blanks.  I'm not sure how I'd print them on identical card stock.

586
Variants and Fan Cards / Card ideas for gift
« on: October 28, 2015, 05:16:14 pm »
Hi, I'm a (former) lurker.  My boyfriend joked that what he wanted for Christmas is a new Dominion expansion.  So as a fun arts and crafts project, I'm creating fan cards.  I was trying to make things that were more amusing than functional, but maybe a few of them are more functional than amusing.  There's sort of a theme of unwanted gifts, which is totally a coincidence and not self-referential at all.  Tell me what you think!


Update: newest versions are here.


Ghost Town
$3 Action
+1 card
+2 actions
Reveal your hand and discard all action cards.  For each action discarded, look at the top two cards of your deck, discard one and put the other into your hand.

This is the village that gets rid of the cards that you'd want to pair with village.

Supreme Court
$3 Action-duration
You may put a card in your hand on top of your deck.
At the beginning of your next turn, you may choose an action card in your hand and play it twice.

This is the version of throne room that's okay to open with.  Somewhere in there is a political joke.  My boyfriend has a degree in law, that's the joke.

Retirement Fund
$3 Action-Victory
+1 action
Put 1 VP on your tavern mat.  VP on your tavern mat do not count towards your final score.

At the end of the game, for each Retirement Fund in your deck, you may take up to 3 VP on your tavern mat.

I like how alt-victory cards encourage all new strategies.  This one encourages you to buy some early, and pick up more in the late game.

Deciduous Forest Hag
$4 Action-Attack
+1 coin
+1 buy
Each other player with at least 5 cards in hand trashes a card from their hand that is not a curse.  Each other player gains a curse.

A lesser-known cousin of the swamp and sea hags, this is the result of an attempt to attach the drawback of Bishop to a different card.  So now it's on a curser, and the trashing is forced.

Uncharted village
$4 Action-Reserve
+2 cards
+2 actions
Put this on your tavern mat

If this is on you tavern mat, at the beginning of your turn, you may call this.  If you do, discard two cards.

We all like lost city, so now this is a lost city that has a different drawback.  You can skip a turn to find all your uncharted villages again.

Captain
$5 Action
Each other player may reveal this card (they may look through your discard pile to decide).  If anyone does, and this card is a Captain, then every other player takes their -1 card token.
If this card is a Captain, +2 coins, and every other player takes their -1 coin token.

In games with this card, as an action you may play any card face down.  That card is a Captain until it is revealed.

Obviously this is inspired by Coup.  Even if it doesn't work, we will laugh about it.

Garbage Processor
$5 Action
+1 action
The player to your left looks through your discard pile and chooses three cards.  Discard or trash one of them.  Put the rest into your hand.

I thought this might be too strong, like a lab with trashing. But then I thought, sometimes it will give you two copper and trash a copper.  Sometimes your discard pile will be empty.  So maybe it's balanced?

Awkward gift
$5 Action
If you have at least three actions in play, +2 actions and gain two gold.  Otherwise, +3 cards and gain an action card costing 4 or less.

The idea behind this card is to have a strong effect which is hampered by awkward placement.  If you have smithy-BM, you didn't really want that action, but okay, let's make the best of it.  If you have an engine, you didn't really want that gold, but gold is nice I guess.

White Elephant
$5 Action
+3 cards
Each player sets aside a card from their hand.  Set aside cards are revealed.  Each player gains a card costing up to 1 coin more than their revealed card, and puts the revealed card in the hand of the player to their left.  You may trash a card from your hand.

Masquerade is fun, but there's no incentive to pass good cards.  This variant encourages people to pass better cards, sometimes.  Also, pile control.

Tedious Tale
$6 Action-Victory
The player on your left gains this card.

When you buy this, +3 VP chips.

This tale is only really interesting if you were there.

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