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Messages - trivialknot

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526
I've tried a few not-so-bright ideas with Secret Passage.  One time I got several to protect myself from Mountebank in a game without trashing (make sure I have a curse in hand to discard).  I think it might have worked a total of one time.

I am not sure that Secret Passage is always good for colliding cards, particularly when the cards you want to collide are cheaper than Secret Passage itself.  Tournament+Province maybe, but Baron+Estate I'm not so sure.  Quarry+Stonemason, uh that doesn't require card collision does it?

527
Engineer + Silk Road

I just played a game where I bought nothing but Engineers, and piled Silk Roads and Heralds (which were mostly useless, but sufficed for a third pile).  This seems much better than Workshop+Gardens.

528
There's an error in the video--it says Magpie went up from #19 to #12.

529
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Landforms
« on: January 11, 2017, 11:52:32 am »
My initial concern is that the tokens will go very quickly.  Once it becomes clear that one of the players can get any sort of advantage out of the landform, it becomes automatic for all the other players, and it will only impact 3 turns.

In the first couple turns, it's unclear whether any particular player could get an advantage, but I think some players will just use the landforms anyway, because they have little reason to think it will hurt at this point.  (See also: you used to be able to gain Engineers with Engineers, but in testing DXV found that some players just drained the pile automatically.)

I think the best landforms so far are the ones that have some sort of barrier to use, like having a non-Copper treasure or an action.  But I think the barriers could be even larger.

530
Some neat, and not at all useful card interactions:

Loan+Bureaucrat: Topdeck a silver, and immediately trash that junk.

Bridge+Develop: Play 7 bridges, then Develop a copper into a Province.

Royal Blacksmith+Watchtower: Get all copper out of your hand with Royal Blacksmith so you can use Watchtower to draw back up to 6.

King's Court+Arena: Drew a King's Court dead?  Discard it for 2 VP.

531
As far as power creep goes, the strongest set by Qvist rankings is clearly Cornucopia.

Although, personally, I think Adventures is one of the strongest sets.

532
Villa is pretty powerful, but in many cases it's just a village with low opportunity cost.  You might draw some actions dead, and save your turn by buying a Villa, but it still cost $3 to do that so your turn is still somewhat less than amazing.  The only thing that made the turn amazing was that you got an extra Villa, roughly for free.  Late in the game, saving a dud turn can be worth much more than $3, but by this time the Villas may have already piled, or perhaps you have so many Villas that the dud turn is missing draw rather than actions.

I rated Port higher than Villa.  Port is #2 for me.

533
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Combo Etiquette
« on: January 09, 2017, 08:25:52 pm »
This is the game of "Name the highest integer" embedded in Dominion.

Isn't it impossible, in general, to determine whether a loop is infinite or not?

Amusingly, these two things are mathematically related!
I am intensely curious and want to learn more.

534
Dominion Articles / Re: Trade
« on: January 09, 2017, 07:40:55 pm »
Trading one copper for silver is like buying a Peddler for $6.  Not so good.  Trading one estate/Curse for silver is like 2 Peddlers for $5, which is much better.

535
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Combo Etiquette
« on: January 09, 2017, 07:37:03 pm »
Suppose that you could get endless VP, but not end the game.  The opponent might be able to pull off the same combo next turn.  This is the game of "Name the highest integer" embedded in Dominion.  Well, you know who has the winning strategy in "Name the highest integer"--the last player. "I name your number times two!"  So that's how I would resolve it, IRL anyways.

It seems unreasonably convoluted to program software to do it that way.  Isn't it impossible, in general, to determine whether a loop is infinite or not?

536
I rated Port higher than Wandering Minstrel, which implicitly puts me in agreement with Awaclus that the village effect of Wandering Minstrel is more important than its sifting effect.

537
One of these cards is mine.
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Sieve - Action-Duration - $6*

+1 Action
Discard 3 Cards

For the rest of the game, at the start of your turn, do this 5 times:
Discard any number of cards and draw that many.
(This stays in play. This is not in the Supply.)
General concept:  "Make your hand the best at the start of your turn"
Well, this fulfills one of the most important qualities of a traveller line: it can't be a monolithic strategy.  Sieve, by itself, does not make a deck, and you probably need non-travellers.  What I don't like is that it seems kind of slow to mess around with your cards every turn.

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Legend - Victory type - $6*

Worth 3VP for every 3 Attacks you have.
General Concept:Attacks
Stage 1: Weak discarding attack
Stage 2: Weak trashing attack
Stage 3: Silver gainer
Stage 4: Strong Attack
Stage 5: Legend (Victory Type)
A province for a final traveller is somewhat weak, so I imagine that there are lots of times you go for this just for the attacks, and then get a Legend as an afterthought in the final shuffle.  There are probably interesting things you could do with traveller attacks.  E.g. you could pair discard attacks with a Masquerade-like attack.

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Lord - Action, Duration - $6*

+1 action.
For the rest of the game, during your turns, Treasure cards cost $0.
This is not in the supply.

General Concept: I imagine this accompanied with action gaining and +buy travellers, treasure cards being free means different things on different boards, and this maybe needs a (weak) push towards engine rather than gold flooding
This is quite different, although I worry it would just lead to big money.  But there are things you could add to tilt it towards an engine, something like Sage or Magpie.

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Anarchist Ringleader - Action - $6*

Play this twice as if it were an action card in the supply or a traveller in this game costing up to #4. This is that card until it leaves play.
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If you play this card more than three times in one turn, trash it.

General Concept:The $3 and $4 cost travellers in this line should be actions that are good for throning.
This is probably really powerful, because it only uses one card in hand, whereas throne room uses two.  So it's really more like King's Court.  The challenge in designing travellers here is to discourage monolithic strategies where you just get a bunch of Anarchist Ringleaders.

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Augur - Action-Duration - $6*
For the rest of the game, you may buy Auspice.

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Auspice - Event -  $1
+1 Buy.  Reveal and set aside up to two cards from your hand.  At the beginning of your next turn: Play any Action cards set aside this way, and put the other cards into your hand.
You may not buy this unless you have played an Augur this game.

General Concept: Auspice is added to the kingdom when Augur is selected.  I leave the earlier travellers open-ended.  Thematically, augurs are from ancient Rome, but I was also thinking of the story of Joseph, whose prophesy persuaded the pharaoh to store surplus food for a future famine.
Looks kind of like Champion in that it makes actions non-terminal, but it costs money and you play the actions on the next turn instead of this one.  Or you could just perpetually save junk in your hand.  I wonder if this is just too much like Champion, but it depends a lot on the rest of the traveller line.

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Mendicant - Action-Reaction - $2*
+2$
Discard a Card
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When you reveal this card, gain a Curse. If you didn't, gain a Copper.
(This is not in the supply)(This is not in the supply)

General Concept:A Traveller line that works in reverse. You pay for a $6 card and 'travel down' the line until you get to the last card. It's essentially a chain of 1-shot cards that get successively less powerful over time until you reach the bottom card. The successive traveller-gaining is therefore mandatory. The reaction portion of the final card is intended to interact with upper cards in the chain in a way that harms the holder. If this traveler concept is chosen, I'm hoping to see some of this subtle interaction between the other cards. The current theming is a powerful figure in the kingdom who's continual power moves make him less and less favorable.
Well, a bad traveller is roughly like a curse, right?  So you could think of this like a 3- or 4-shot that curses yourself.  Could be interesting.  One issue is that you don't even hit $6 until shuffles 2-4, so realistically you may never even see Mendicant, or the other low-cost travellers.

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Taskmaster - Action - Duration - $6*
At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game, set aside any number of cards from your hand then draw until you have 5 cards in hand. At the start of Clean-up, you may put any cards set aside in this fashion in your discard pile or on top of your deck in any order.
(This stays in play. This is not in the Supply.)

General Concept: Travelers that care about or affect timing, including Reserve Travellers that you have to call in order to exchange.
Sounds kind of like a Guide+.  It would be interesting to design cards that care about timing.  Say, smuggler, and/or cost reducers.  Another neat thing you could do is include a reaction card, which you could guarantee to be in hand every turn.

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Entrepreneur - Action-Attack $6*
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
Each other player takes their -$1 token
-
While this is in play, cards in the supple cost $1 less.

General Concept: /
Kind of a Grand Highway, this is the kind of card you might want a lot of.  But there are only five of them.  Would you have to buy a lot of travellers just to win the Entrepreneur split?

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Grand Master Mason- Action - $6*

Turn your Journey token over. If it is face up, while this is in play Victory cards cost 3 less on your turn, but not less than 0. If it is face down, while this is in play Actions cards cost 3 less on your turn, but not less then 0.


General Concept: This Traveller lines uses the Journey token that is flipped each time a Traveller, or the end card of this Traveller line, is played.
There's a lot of design space as you could potentially give two abilities to each traveller (one for face down, one for face up).  I kinda want to design a Journey-token village for this.

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Conqeror - Action/Victory - $6*
Trash the remaining Provinces
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Worth a total of 10 VP for every (Stage 4) in your deck, 6VP for every (Stage 3) in your deck, 3VP for every (Stage 2) in your deck and 1 VP for every (Stage 1) in your deck
(This card isn't in the supply)

General Concept:Each progressive step requires passing some sort of difficult condition in order to make the exchange. Successfully being the first to reach the final stage will generally end the game and give a huge reward. Multiple attempts
I'd be worried that this places too much importance on traveller randomness.  Passing a test at each stage makes it feel a little more ymyosl.  But then who has time for that?  Getting Champion takes long enough, and now you need to get several travellers to stage 4+, and pass tests in the mean time.  I mean, I like the concept, but the earlier travellers may be challenging to design.

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Magnate - Treasure/Duration - $6*

+$2
When you play this, now and at the start of your next turn:
+1 Buy
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While this is in play, when you gain a card and it's your turn, +$2.
(This is not in the Supply.)

General Concept:The concept of this traveller line is, that it starts out as a deck thinning engine and ends with a very simple card which likes thin and fast deck with a high money density. Unlike other deck thinners like Raze and Lookout this is a whole engine, which "grows" to end up with a powerful deck in the end game.

The line consists of five cards. First, card 1 is a weak non-terminal deck inspector or sifter. Then, card 2 is a terminal deck accelerator (preferably with drawing and trashing and/or Treasure gaining capabilities). Next, card 3 is a moderate terminal or non-terminal, which provides more buying power and has a strong synergy with card 1 (like Tunnel + Oasis, Rats + Upgrade or Catapult + Rocks). Card 4 is a terminal card again, which may be an improved version of card 2 or the final blow to pave the way for card 5. One or two cards of the line should also have +1 Buy or a gain effect to increase the effectiveness of the last card.
If I were to design a "whole engine" traveller line, I would give it all the necessary components (sifting, action, draw, thinning, payoff).  If any of these components are already in the kingdom, it would often be easier to buy them directly, but the travellers fill any gaps.  It seems fitting that the final card would be a payoff card. 

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Cardinal - Action-Duration - $6*
At the start of each of your turns:
You may play an Action or Treasure card from your hand twice.
(This stays in play. This is not in the Supply)

General Concept: Cards that allow playing the same card multiple times.
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Throne room effects are often confusing in combination with each other, so I don't know what I think of a card that intentionally combines them.  I'd probably mix in other card types, like sifting and draw.

538
Philosophical question: If Rocks is powerful when it shows up, but only shows up in a small fraction of games, is it good?

Let's compare to Fortune, a card that I suspect will be ranked fairly highly.  Fortune will also only appear in a fraction of games, but it seems intuitive that this is reflective of the power of Gladiator, rather than the power of Fortune.

The difference between Fortune and Catapult is that Fortune is good regardless of whether you were the one who got a Gladiator.  Rocks are usually only good when you have Catapults.  You might gain extra Catapults not because extra Catapults are especially good, but because they give you access to Rocks, which are better for you than for your opponent.

When we rank cards we always take their costs into consideration.  Thus, we rank Fortune knowing that it costs $8+8D, and Rocks knowing that it costs $4.  But unlike Fortune, Rocks also seems to have an extra cost: the opportunity cost of buying perhaps more Catapults than you really wanted.

539
It's a shame that Rocks comes up in so few games, requiring multiple people to go for Catapults, or one person to go all in.  For that reason, I don't put much stock in the current ranking of Rocks, and am willing to substitute my personal opinion.  ;D

Rocks is underrated by at least 10 ranks.  Considering that you only get it when there are five catapults floating around, Rocks is basically a curser/militia.  Definitely not the strongest junker, but still much more consistent than say, Embargo, so it's hard to justify it being so low.
Rocks is not a curser militia, it's a oneshot curser militia if you want to look at it that way. This is even before considering the need to collide, etc. Big difference.
A oneshot?  You're thinking of silver.  Rocks plus two silver is a three-shot, with multiple chances to collide.  And the first shot could be in the very same shuffle you buy Rocks.

Yeah, buying a card just to be oneshot Catapult food sucks, which is why Catapult isn't a very effective curser on its own.  You need a silver-gainer like Rocks.

540
It's a shame that Rocks comes up in so few games, requiring multiple people to go for Catapults, or one person to go all in.  For that reason, I don't put much stock in the current ranking of Rocks, and am willing to substitute my personal opinion.  ;D

Rocks is underrated by at least 10 ranks.  Considering that you only get it when there are five catapults floating around, Rocks is basically a curser/militia.  Definitely not the strongest junker, but still much more consistent than say, Embargo, so it's hard to justify it being so low.

541
I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.

542
it might not be pleasant to play with or against Catapult
I disagree with this part.

543
Catapult: One thing that makes Catapult difficult to rank is that it's so very bad against itself.  Trashing is weaker when you just would have discarded those cards anyway.  And having a Catapult in a three-card hand is really sad.  Maybe this means Catapult feels weaker than it is, because I'm more focused on how it benefits me than how it hurts the opponent.

Plan: Plan is like a cantrip trasher that you have in hand every turn, but which can only trash if you buy the right card.  Often there's a cheap card around that you want a few copies of anyway.

Gladiator: Contrary to what was said in the video, I think Fortune should hardly be considered when ranking Gladiator.  It has the weakest synergy of all the split piles.  When Fortune is revealed, everyone can get nearly the same use out of it.

544
I think Loan suffers a lot from being too much of a "middle ground" opening.  It's a decent trasher, and that extra $1 boosts your economy in the second shuffle.  Unfortunately, it just isn't quite enough to significantly boost your chances of hitting $5.

For comparison, consider how often a silver lets you hit $6 on the second shuffle.  Sometimes it happens, but don't count on it.

545
Loan is nice because of the extra $1 (as compared to say, Forager).  However, the extra $1 is pretty much cancelled out by the first time you trash a copper rather than an Estate.  So yes you're getting an extra $1 in the first shuffle, but you just lose in the long run.

That said, Forager is a top card, and I could see Loan being somewhat closer to it.

546
I expected to see Catapult right now and was set to argue that maybe it should be a bit higher.  But since we haven't seen it yet, clearly it's being overrated.

Catapult, it's really bad.  If you trash a copper, it's like a Militia that doesn't give you money.  If you trash an estate, it's like a Trade Route without buy.  Later you can trash good cards to curse your opponent, but that hurts your own deck almost as much as your opponent's.  I mean, if you can spend an action to trash a $3, then your opponent can spend an action to trash their curse, and it comes out about the same for both of you, only you lost a $3.

In the previews, people were saying Catapult looks great, Rocks looks awful.  It's quite the opposite.  Rocks is the main saving grace of Catapult.  In our group, as we've explored the strategy-space of Catapult, it seems the best thing you can do is buy ALL the Catapults, and then trash Catapults and Rocks to curse your opponents.  The opposing player has to decide between buying a catapult (which accelerates towards Rocks, and is a terrible card) and not buying a catapult (possibly losing access to the only junker and trasher).

547
I ranked Banquet last, although that may have been a bit hyperbolic.  Since then I actually won a game with Banquet.  Turns out Banquet/Gardens is pretty good.

Opening with Banquet is far, far inferior to simply opening 5/2.  Your fiver is almost twice as likely to appear on turn 5, and you will draw it less often for the rest of the game.  I think the best use of Banquet is to commit to a slog.

548
Thanks, that's very helpful.

549
Question: What constitutes the "concept" of a card?

Does that mean, come up with a basic life story for the character?  Or does that refer to the mechanics of progression (e.g. cycling your deck, as with existing travellers)?  Could I just submit a final card, and leave the path to the final card open-ended?

550
You missed a con:  You can't put Lost Arts on Fool's Gold.  Lost Arts on Poor House is really good!
Engines with fools gold as payload a lost arts on something else are better than engines without that. I don't know why you want poor house in a non engine.
The joke is that Poor House is much improved by being non-terminal, but Fool's Gold is non-terminal to begin with so it's not much of a con for Fool's Gold.

Lost Arts/Poor House can be good though.

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