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Messages - trivialknot

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51
Keep has a lot more potential for points.
Does it though? The actions are only Treasures during your turns, not at the end of the game.

Ah yes, you are correct. Too bad though.

But, will the vp-counter show it as if they indeed would give points? That may cause some frustrating losses out of nowhere I could imagine.
No.

http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=3318.0

52
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Initial Impressions
« on: November 06, 2018, 01:47:43 am »
Scepter looks like one of the weakest throne room variants (except Ghost), but it has a very nice interaction with draw-to-X.  Scepter + Scholar could be an engine all on its own.  Scepter + Jack might be good.  Scepter + Tactician... well that's funny, you can play the same tactician every turn, but the Scepters stay in play until you stop.

I think Scepter is one of the strongest Throne Room variants. You can use multiple Scepters on the same target, you can use it on a target that you played way earlier on your turn, it lets you play Actions after you've played Treasures for some neat tricks sometimes, you can't draw it dead, and if you draw it without a target, it's still +$2. It introduces some restrictions that other Thrones don't have, but it also has some unique strengths, and it also has the strength that used to be unique to Royal Carriage.

You can even play strategies that are basically engine/big money hybrids with Scepter because of how resilient it is against unlucky draws. Scepter + Scholar is an obvious example that works super well.
I see your point.  Scepter + Scholar looks very strong, but even Scepter + Smithy is quite good.  Throne Room + Smithy needs three cards in your starting hand to kick off, but Scepter + Smithy only needs one.

53
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Initial Impressions
« on: November 06, 2018, 12:28:40 am »
Scepter looks like one of the weakest throne room variants (except Ghost), but it has a very nice interaction with draw-to-X.  Scepter + Scholar could be an engine all on its own.  Scepter + Jack might be good.  Scepter + Tactician... well that's funny, you can play the same tactician every turn, but the Scepters stay in play until you stop.

54
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Initial Impressions
« on: November 05, 2018, 03:09:07 pm »
My initial impression of Cargo Ship was that it was weak.  It seems comparable to Tracker, but a bit better in the opening because the extra money makes it easier to hit $5.

Hideout looks game-warping.  A cantrip trasher for $4 is already amazing.  And the fact that it's a village means engines go up really quick.  The curse-gaining looks like an important balancing effect, because at first you can only trash down by trashing copper, and in the late game you can buy Estates to feed your Hideouts.

Inventor looks crazy in the same way that Bridge does.  But after thinking about it, it doesn't have quite the same megaturn potential.  5 bridges and $7 in treasure gives you 4 provinces; 5 Inventors and $7 in treasure gives you only 2 provinces and a bunch of components.  It might be better for building, worse for scoring.

Although there's a lot of focus on the weird interactions and combos with Capitalism, I think it's a solid project even without them.  Just consider Capitalism + Monument, it's probably good.  Payload cards were underappreciated Lost Arts targets, because they were overshadowed by Lost Arts on terminal draw.

Cathedral resembles some of my speculation from weeks ago, but I'm surprised that there's no protection against discard attacks.  Right now it's tough to judge when the appropriate time to buy this is, but it's punishing enough that I'm sure it will become clear in time.

In general, I'm very pleased with the use of the villagers effect.  They're a finite resource, contingent on gaining or trashing a card, or on playing a terminal action.  If Coffers are a tradeoff between flexibility and raw strength, then Villagers are a tradeoff between reliability and longevity.

55
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« on: November 05, 2018, 11:36:55 am »
Trashing seems particularly strong in this set, with three trashers being so strong that you worry about running out of fuel (Recruiter, Hideout, Cathedral), and several other decent trashers besides (Priest, Treasurer, Sewers, Research, I wouldn't really count Ducat or Improve).

56
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« on: November 05, 2018, 11:23:25 am »
It appears that a subtheme is "effects that interact with categories that we never really thought about before".  Patron reacting to being revealed. Capitalism reacting to actions with +$. Sewers and Priest reacting to trashing, including self-trashing.  Swashbuckler reacting to things that put stuff in the discard.  Seer reacting to $2-$4-costs.  And of course, there's the whole class of actions that are useful to play during the Buy phase.

Another subtheme is on-gain effects.  I mean, those are in every set, but there are especially a lot of them here.  I think it's because +Coffers and +Villagers are very interesting when they're on-gain.

57
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: RNG vs decisions
« on: October 25, 2018, 08:41:01 pm »
I think the first question to ask is: is there a board where, if player A never does anything (and controls the shuffles), player B cannot win?

For this, some calculations. So  the idea is to have a useless kingdom (maybe all Villages or something) so you are limited to basic Treasures. But we add Bandit Camp! So basic Treasures are worth negative VP.

So we start with 7 Coppers. Player B only ever gets the highest-value Treasure they could possibly buy. As long as the average coin per hand is less than or equal to 5, it will be possible to arrange the shuffle in a way to only give $5 or less hands, forcing to buy another Silver. After adding s Silvers, your average $ per turn is 5*(7 + 2s)/(10 + s). This is larger than 5 if s > 3. Thus, adding 4 Silvers allows you to get at least 1 Gold every 5 shuffles.

Now start adding Golds until your money density is high enough for Provinces. Current money total is 15, and total cards in deck are 14. We now want that 5*(15 + 3g)/(14 + g) > 7. This is the case when g > 23/8. We need to add 3 Golds and then are guaranteed to get Provinces. Of course adding a Province lowers money density, so we have to get more Golds to make up for it. How many? We want a Gold-per-Province ratio such that the average money density remains at least 7, i.e. 5*3g/(p + g) >= 7, or g/p >= 7/8. So to add 8 Provinces, we're adding 7 more Golds.

Now, we added 4 Silvers and 10 Golds total. With Bandit Fort, that's -28 VP. We have a total of 32 cards, with Wall that's another -17 VP, so -45 VP total, but all the Provinces are worth 48 VP, which is still a net profit of 3VP.
Although I gave basically the same solution, I realized a problem with it: shuffle skipping.  With 4 silver, the RNG player can carefully order cards in such a way that you always hit $5.

T1: SCCCE
T2: SSCEE
T3: SCCC (shuffle) E
T4: SSCEE
T5: SCCC (shuffle) E
etc.

So you need 5 silver, and then you need 11 gold to be able to pick up the 8th province.  If you only have 10, then you could have the following shuffles:
T1: GGCPP
T2: GGCPP
T3: GGCPP
T4: GGCPE
T5: SSSCE
T6: SSCCE
T7: GG (shuffle) CPP

So the total VP is 48 (provinces) + 3 (estates) - 32 (bandit fort) - 19 (wall) = 0 VP.  Which is losing.

I think you still win by buying a couple duchies though.

58
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: RNG vs decisions
« on: October 25, 2018, 08:11:07 pm »
Sorry faust, I can't read. Or count the number of VP in the province pile for that matter. Where's the foot in mouth emoji?

59
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: RNG vs decisions
« on: October 25, 2018, 01:33:13 pm »
Thinking about it more, those estimates aren't quite right.  With only four silver, the RNG player can prevent you from ever hitting $6.  But 22VP is a large enough lead that I'm convinced of the result even if the calculation is a bit off.

60
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: RNG vs decisions
« on: October 25, 2018, 01:25:50 pm »
A variant: what if the RNG player, instead of being controlled by the Decision player, simply does nothing all game?

In the base set, I estimate you need 4 silvers before you can afford gold, and then 10 gold to be able to afford the 8th province.  With Wall and Bandit Fort, that's 64+3-28-17=22 VP.  So that's still winning.

61
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« on: October 22, 2018, 01:15:13 pm »
Rennaissance is coming soon!  Must take more shots in the dark in hopes of winning an internet point.

Quote
Crop Rotation - $5 Project
When you buy a card, trash a card from your hand.
Of all the leaked card names, Crop Rotation seemed like the most likely candidate for a forced trasher.  And then the name sounds like it would be triggered on buy.

Quote
Sinister Plot - $8 Project
When the end-game conditions are fulfilled, you take one more turn before the game ends.
This would be tricky rules-wise, because you have to have a rule for who takes their extra turn first, and what happens if someone buys Mission, Donate, or plays Possession on their last turn?  But the basic concept seems obvious enough.

Quote
Fleet - $6 Project
During your action phase, you may play any card face down as an action card with the name "Ship", which gives +$2.
The teaser says there's a card with a word in quotation marks.  I am completely mystified by the idea, so this is just a wild guess.

Next, my guesses for the unknown artifacts:
Quote
Border Guard - $3 Action/Reaction
+2 Cards
----------------
When the player to your left gains a card costing at least $5, you may reveal this from your hand to take the Horn.

Horn - Artifact
At the beginning of your turn, +1 Villager

Quote
Hideout - $3 Action
+1 Action
Choose one: Take the Lantern; +1 Card; Or look at the top two cards of your deck, trash one and put the other one back.

Lantern - Artifact
At the beginning of your turn, look at the top three cards of your deck, discard any of them, and put the rest back in any order.

62
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« on: October 17, 2018, 11:30:28 pm »
So for one thing cobbler is in nocturne. I hated nocturne! Iím not buying it. I did sorta like the idea of night cards. So I might make my own fan based night cards. The reason why I even made a whole fan based expansion was because of the disappointment with nocturne.

There are about 10 other cards in snowline that will be using the journey token. Snowline is going to be like adventures. It will also have some cards similar to dark ages like hermit/madman, urchin/mercenary. There will be 2 new travelers as well. Tons of other attacks and a few reactions and some similar to reactions. With lots of other durations and reserves.
Well sure.  But the comparison to Cobbler suggests that the natural price for Sled Dogs is $5.

63
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« on: October 17, 2018, 10:15:22 pm »
Thereís already sort of a cantrip gainer: Cobbler.  Cobblers are card neutral, in the sense of pushing a card from one hand to the next.  Sled Dogs are not quite card neutral, since every other play increases your hand size.  While you need to play two Sled dogs to get this effect, they also skip shuffles less often since they arenít durations.  Overall, Sled Dogs seem about as powerful as Cobbler, possibly more so.

64
Dominion Articles / Re: Draw-to-X engines
« on: October 10, 2018, 09:22:54 pm »
I think the article doesn't adequately address why Draw-to-X engines are less consistent than standard draw engines.  As we know, the point where an engine is most likely to dud is at the beginning of your turn.  After you play a few villages and smithies, you've drawn enough of your deck that it's very likely you have more villages and smithies in hand.  On the other hand, with (say) Hamlet/Watchtower, you have 6 cards in hand at most, so there continues to be a significant risk of stopping throughout your turn.

The specifics of how this plays out differs depending on the kind of draw-to-X.  If you're drawing with Scholar, you have to throw away extra scholars whenever they collide.  If you're drawing with Library, you don't have to throw away extra libraries, but they don't help you draw very much unless they also collide with your disappearing payoff.

This was one of the things that came out of my extremely theoretical analysis of engines.  Conventional draw decks can in principle draw through an infinitely large deck.  Draw-to-X decks always eventually halt.  This may seem like a small distinction, given that real decks are finite in size.  But the implication is that there isn't a clear transition point between a "good-stuff" deck and an "engine" deck.  Draw-to-X decks, more than other kinds of decks, lend themselves to "hybrid" strategies that are somehow in between "engine" and "good stuff". 

I mean, I'm not saying your article needs to include the whole dominion physics analysis, there's probably a simpler way to put it.

If you put Menagerie there (which is a not-really-draw-to-X), then you also need to include Diplomat. Or neither.
*whispers* shanty town

65
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« on: October 10, 2018, 08:46:40 pm »
The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.  Seems like an obvious Project idea, although I'm not sure how the details would work out.
Quote
Trasher you can't turn off - $2 Project
At the beginning of each turn, +1 card, then trash a card from your hand.

I'm not sure if this is a good turn 1 buy, or if it becomes a liability later on, especially in games without +buy.  Maybe it could cost $5 or $6 instead.  I put in the +1 card so it isn't garbage against discard attacks, but there are probably other ways of dealing with that issue.

Another idea:

Quote
Trasher you can't turn off - $6 Project
At the beginning of each turn, trash a card from your hand, and gain a non-victory card costing no more than it, to your hand.

So you could get a Transmogrify-type effect each turn.  But maybe that would just demolish piles, so I restricted it from milling Provinces.

66
Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.
Upon further reflection, buying Flag Bearer later is not necessarily better.  Because later your deck is better, and there's more of an opportunity cost.  e.g. if you draw $5 on T3, you might not want to waste it getting a Flag Bearer.

67
Not really. There is basically no such thing as a player 2 advantage. If there were, the first player would pass to become the second player. Sure, the timing of your shuffles don't quite make that always the best play, but that's a higher-order effect.

There's a second-mover advantage, though, which means that there's less incentive than usual to take the artifact first. By doing so, you're opening your opponent up to a much stronger play of stealing it from you. It's like taking Dame Josephine if she's the top Knight on the pile, but even more so.

I think this is totally wrong, and for a reason you have noted - the timing of shuffles. You seem to think this just occasionally might muck up your logic, but it totally nukes it every time. You don't get to pass in dominion. You get to put your hand into your discard pile and draw 5 more cards. That's absolutely not the same thing.

I think the shuffle timing actually gives an advantage to the first player.  For example, if both players buy a Flag Bearer on T2, then P2 ends up with the Flag, and the decks are otherwise the same.  On the other hand, if P2 buys a Flag Bearer on T2, and P1 buys one on T3, then P1 ends up with the Flag, and their Flag Bearer comes a shuffle later.  But here's the key point: having a Flag Bearer a shuffle earlier is bad.  Instead of having the Flag Bearer earlier, you could have bought a silver, and had the silver a shuffle earlier instead.

68
Did I miss the discussion about why Innovation makes you set aside the card before playing it?
I think it's to prevent tracking issues.  For example, if I gain Death Cart, I can choose whether to gain ruins first, or activate Innovation first.  If I gain ruins first, then the death cart is covered, which means it's lost track of.  But losing track of death cart doesn't prevent you from playing it, it just prevents you from moving it from one spot to another.  So Innovation needs that clause to prevent a lot of issues where you play a card without moving it into the play area.  Summon has a similar clause.

69
Now I'm wondering what's the most abusive card to play during your buy phase.
Leprechaun, Poor House, Tactician, and kinda Horse Traders.

70
These projects look really impactful!

Now I'm wondering what's the most abusive card to play during your buy phase.  I guess it only works once, so you can't do something like, buy a bunch of Death Carts to pile out ruins.

Is there a mistake in the Silos wording shown? It doesn't make sense.
By default when you discard a bunch of cards together, you don't have to reveal them.  So for accountability reasons, Silo tells you to reveal the copper.

71
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Teaser
« on: September 27, 2018, 02:34:00 pm »
My guess is you can "purchase" projects by placing one of your two wooden cubes on the sideways card-shaped thing. The other players can do the same. So long as your cube is on the project (maybe you can't take it off), parts of the game will be modified for you and anyone else who has purchased the same project, such as (1) take a turn after the game ends, (2) trash a card every turn, (3) $1 every turn, (4) +1 buy every turn, (5) some kind of benefit every time you shuffle, (6) maybe a benefit when you do other things like buy a victory, treasure, or action card, (7) maybe a way to play action cards during buy phase.

Seems like enough possibilities here to make 20 of these projects.

I like this speculation, and I would guess that to "purchase" the project, you fulfill some sort of condition, like with the 2VP landmarks.

72
Can you take the treasure chest if Swashbuckler doesn't give you coffers, and you just have leftover coffers from previous turns?

73
I had been hoping for this eventuality, ever since Fool!

Flagbearer - This makes me imagine Flagbearer slogs, where Flagbearer is the best $4-cost card because of the advantage it takes away from your opponent.  I'm sure it doesn't happen often, if at all, but I hope it happens sometimes at least a little.  I like that Flag is friendly, so that if both players buy one, then they both get 6 cards.

Swashbuckler - Um that art.  Although, I looked up the word, and it seems that "swashbuckler" is a heroic archetype in fiction, so I guess depicting a Hollywood pirate is just about right.  Seems like it shines most in a good stuff deck, where you're more likely to have a discard pile, and you're more happy with gold-gaining.  Oh, and if everyone collects Coffers, everyone gets gold, yay!

Is Swashbuckler the card that cares about shuffling?

Treasurer - So it's like a Moneylender, but you can either lend or borrow.  The key, unlike the other artifacts, is unfriendly.  You can reach a point where players swap the key and nobody gets the bonus.

74
Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: CSM and Ducat
« on: September 26, 2018, 04:16:07 pm »
You missed Copper.

75
Although we whine about cards being nearly strictly better or strictly worse, that's mostly an aesthetics issue.  After all, in most games you only have one or the other available, and you'll still buy the "strictly worse" card because you don't have the opportunity to buy the better one.  The greater question is whether the cards play similarly or not.

If you don't trash a copper, Ducat is like Candlestick Maker, except in a few (relatively common) edge cases.  But wouldn't you usually want to trash a copper?  In this case, Ducat functions similar to Market Square, but it turns a coin into a coin token.  So, not really all that similar to Candlestick Maker.

... Now I'm thinking about Hermit/Ducat combos.

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